Sith Lords vs Obi-Wan

Well being that he has a defensive style, I don't see him making mincemeat out of anyone as opposed to gaining a strike or two in between defensive maneuvers. So i still don't see him beating Maul. Well I'd give it to Maul 7/10 to make room for flukes.

With Anakin, Anakin wasn't thinking clearly and had they fought under any other circumstance, OB1 would be "mincemeat." 😉

They knew each other more intimately than lovers, i think the quote went, so that definitely made a difference in their fight. Had Anakin not jumped right then, Anakin wouldn't have lost. Plus they had to work it into the story, but whatever. Have them fight 9 more times and I'd say that Anakin takes them all. That was also a situational win given the environment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWKsErC1koQ

Listen to the song, this is what Obi-Wan becomes cuz he just got pwned so many times by so many sith lords, its not even funny.

Ok, maybe it is.......

I'd say Kenobi beats maul. The difference between even AOTC and ROTS kenobi is noted by Dooku, who finds it remarkable. He has a completely different style from TPM to ROTS, and is the The Master of Soresu. In the era in which he is called this, his saber skills are undefeated. He beat General Grievous and Dark Side Skywalker (i.e, the one that beat Dooku.)

Consider Maul certainly didn't wipe the floor with Qui-Gonn Jinn, an aging Jedi master who was said to be tiring (for some weird reason, since he WAS a jedi who should have been able to sustain himself with the force) by the end of the fight. So was maul's greatest feat killing QGJ, or killing Bondara?

Either way, Kenobi's two victories are more impressive than those of Bondara.

if someone were to say skywalker was more powerful than kenobi, so kenobi won by a fluke it is a half truth. The first half of the sentence is true, but the ROTS novelization makes clear that in the actual fight between Kenobi and Anakin, Kenobi dominated the fight. He chose where they would fight, he chose to give ground, he passed on at least one opportunity to kill Kenobi, while Anakin passed on no such chances.

Each of the statements from the novel collaborate with moments on the bigscreen, The movie might make it look like Kenobi is losing, but when that exact moment is described in the novel as Kenobi choosing to let Anakin do something... the novel does not contradict the movie, merely further explains what we are seeing, and stands as the correct canon viewpoint.

But I digress.

Obi-Wan will lose to KNOWN Sith: Sidious, Bane, Dooku
PROBABLY ROTJ Vader.

In each of these cases, Kenobi is destroyed with the force, since that seems to be simply the best way to take him out.

Also, Probably (but unprovable) Revan, Marka Ragnos, and Exar Kun

I think he wins the rest.

No name Sith Lords are average? That means Bandon must be pro.

So... Logically. Bandon=Dooku because they both have names, and Dooku casually dispatched Obi Wan...

So... Bandon> Kenobi?

Originally posted by truejedi
[B]Consider Maul certainly didn't wipe the floor with Qui-Gonn Jinn, an aging Jedi master who was said to be tiring (for some weird reason, since he WAS a jedi who should have been able to sustain himself with the force) by the end of the fight. So was maul's greatest feat killing QGJ, or killing Bondara?

Oh dear Buddha, Maul curbstomped Qui-Gon on Tatooine using one side of his blade and only testing him. Qui-Gon was left just short of losing his life and on the brink of a heart attack. On Naboo, he was beating both Jedi around like they were his redheaded step-children. The movie, the novel, and other materials (such as the Official Star Wars Fact File #1) corroborate that.

Either way, Kenobi's two victories are more impressive than those of Bondara.

Anoon Bondara was the best duelist in the entire Jedi Order when it consisted of people like Mace Windu, Yoda, and Dooku. He was the battle master of the entire Order. Kenobi beat Grievous...and? How does that make him close to as good as people like Anoon or Maul?

His victory against Anakin was entirely situational. He didn't beat Anakin in a direct fight because he knew that he couldn't, and so do we.

if someone were to say skywalker was more powerful than kenobi, so kenobi won by a fluke it is a half truth. The first half of the sentence is true, but the ROTS novelization makes clear that in the actual fight between Kenobi and Anakin, Kenobi dominated the fight. He chose where they would fight, he chose to give ground, he passed on at least one opportunity to kill Kenobi, while Anakin passed on no such chances.

Kenobi didn't have any chance to pass on. At all. The movie shows Obi-Wan clearly trying to kill Anakin at every step. When he trips Anakin to the ground, he Force pulls his saber to him and tries to cleave him. Kenobi also didn't "dominate" the fight, he gave ground because he couldn't beat Anakin in a fair fight. He didn't choose to give ground, he had to. Kenobi has to resort to distractions like platform balancing, swinging from cables, and lava skating.

Each of the statements from the novel collaborate with moments on the bigscreen, The movie might make it look like Kenobi is losing, but when that exact moment is described in the novel as Kenobi choosing to let Anakin do something... the novel does not contradict the movie, merely further explains what we are seeing, and stands as the correct canon viewpoint.

The movie shows Anakin forcing Kenobi to pull any trick he think of out of the bag and getting his ass beat with 20 second long Dragon Sleeper holds and melee attacks.

The novel also says that Kenobi was trying to do anything he could to slow Anakin down. He wasn't able to match him directly.

Originally posted by Advent
Oh dear Buddha, Maul curbstomped Qui-Gon on Tatooine using one side of his blade and only testing him. Qui-Gon was left just short of losing his life and on the brink of a heart attack. On Naboo, he was beating both Jedi around like they were his redheaded step-children. The movie, the novel, and other materials (such as the Official Star Wars Fact File #1) corroborate that.

Anoon Bondara was the best duelist in the entire Jedi Order when it consisted of people like Mace Windu, Yoda, and Dooku. He was the battle master of the entire Order. Kenobi beat Grievous...and? How does that make him close to as good as people like Anoon or Maul?

His victory against Anakin was entirely situational. He didn't beat Anakin in a direct fight because he knew that he couldn't, and so do we.

Kenobi didn't have any chance to pass on. At all. The movie shows Obi-Wan clearly trying to kill Anakin at every step. When he trips Anakin to the ground, he Force pulls his saber to him and tries to cleave him. Kenobi also didn't "dominate" the fight, he gave ground because he couldn't beat Anakin in a fair fight. He didn't choose to give ground, he had to. Kenobi has to resort to distractions like platform balancing, swinging from cables, and lava skating.

The movie shows Anakin forcing Kenobi to pull any trick he think of out of the bag and getting his ass beat with 20 second long Dragon Sleeper holds and melee attacks.

The novel also says that Kenobi was trying to do anything he could to slow Anakin down. He wasn't able to match him directly. [/B]

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Actually, there was no curbstomp on Tatooine, as opposed to him pushing Qui Gon back but unable to deal a killing blow. I suggest you look up the meaning of words before using them in improper context. And Maul was testing Qui Gon? Please prove it. Otherwise stop making shit up.

"Qui-Gon, surprised by the other's quickness and ferocity, barely blocked the blow with his own weapon, the blades sliding apart with a harsh rasp.

His attacker closed with him again, forcing him back, striking at him from every angle. Even without knowing anything else, Qui-Gon knew this man was trained in the fighting arts of a Jedi, a skilled and dangerous adversary. Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger than Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly.

Qui-Gon had barely managed to scramble up the rampway and into the interior of the ship before the hatch sealed and the Nubian began to accelerate. He lay on the cool metal floor of the entry, his clothing dusty and damp with his sweat, his body bruised and battered. He breathed deeply, waiting for his pounding heart to quiet. He had barely escaped with his life, and the thought was worrisome. His opponent was strong and had tested him severely."

Maul was only using one blade of his lightsaber. He didn't even activate the second, which is what he normally fights with. That's a test that left Qui-Gon "barely escaping with his life".

Boondara was the most technically skilled duelist, NOT the best.

"The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none." (Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter)

"Renown for his skill with a lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded as a role model who's combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order." (Jedi Academy Training Manual, Ch. 6, pg. 97)

I'm not sure what you mean when you say he "wasn't the best". Who was and why?

This is irrelevant. They both knew each other inside and out and Obiwan was the smarter fighter.

It's irrelevant that Obi-Wan didn't win in a direct fight and the battle relied on the structures built on Mustafar? I beg to differ because those two things give context to the Obi-Wan's victory. The simple fact is that Anakin is much more skilled and powerful than he is, so when it's brought up that "Kenobi beat Anakin", that needs to be pointed out.

Or because he's a defensive fighter? Could that be why he gave ground? The entire fight was fair and the simple result was this: Skywalker couldn't break Obiwan's defenses. Stop twisting things around.

You think platform jumping, tight rope jumping, and lava skating are "fair ground"? No, they aren't by any reasonable measures. It's specifically mentioned in the novel that Obi-Wan was trying to do anything he could to avoid Anakin's onslaught. That means he didn't choose to retreat, he had to.

And the realistic fight shows Obiwan knocking Anakin back a few times while Anakin did the rest. REALITY>Advent.

He was put in a Dragon Sleeper hold for almost 20 seconds. That was shown in the movie.

At the start of the duel, Anakin boots kicks him square in the chest that tosses Obi-Wan into the air. That was shown in the movie.

Anakin kicks Obi-Wan dead in the chin sending him stumbling backwards while verbally expressing the blow as "ACCCCK". That was shown in the movie

By comparison, Obi-Wan only ends up tripping Anakin and tries to score a couple of light kicks.

THe movie shows otherwise.

Don't be nugatory when writing to Advent.

Originally posted by Advent
"Qui-Gon, surprised by the other's quickness and ferocity, barely blocked the blow with his own weapon, the blades sliding apart with a harsh rasp.

His attacker closed with him again, forcing him back, striking at him from every angle. Even without knowing anything else, Qui-Gon knew this man was trained in the fighting arts of a Jedi, a skilled and dangerous adversary. Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger than Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly.

Qui-Gon had barely managed to scramble up the rampway and into the interior of the ship before the hatch sealed and the Nubian began to accelerate. He lay on the cool metal floor of the entry, his clothing dusty and damp with his sweat, his body bruised and battered. He breathed deeply, waiting for his pounding heart to quiet. He had barely escaped with his life, and the thought was worrisome. His opponent was strong and had tested him severely."

Maul was only using one blade of his lightsaber. He didn't even activate the second, which is what he normally fights with. That's a test that left Qui-Gon "barely escaping with his life".

"The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none." (Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter)

"Renown for his skill with a lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded as a role model who's combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order." (Jedi Academy Training Manual, Ch. 6, pg. 97)

I'm not sure what you mean when you say he "wasn't the best". Who was and why?

It's irrelevant that Obi-Wan didn't win in a direct fight and the battle relied on the structures built on Mustafar? I beg to differ because those two things give context to the Obi-Wan's victory. The simple fact is that Anakin is much more skilled and powerful than he is, so when it's brought up that "Kenobi beat Anakin", that needs to be pointed out.

You think platform jumping, tight rope jumping, and lava skating are "fair ground"? No, they aren't by any reasonable measures. It's specifically mentioned in the novel that Obi-Wan was trying to do anything he could to avoid Anakin's onslaught. That means he didn't choose to retreat, he had to.

He was put in a Dragon Sleeper hold for almost 20 seconds. That was shown in the movie.

At the start of the duel, Anakin boots kicks him square in the chest that tosses Obi-Wan into the air. That was shown in the movie.

Anakin kicks Obi-Wan dead in the chin sending him stumbling backwards while verbally expressing the blow as "ACCCCK". That was shown in the movie

By comparison, Obi-Wan only ends up tripping Anakin and tries to score a couple of light kicks.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You are probably misunderstanding my position. In no way am I arguing for Qui Gon. I'm simply stating that you're making shit up.
You called the fight a "curb stomp" and claimed Maul was "testing him".

I'm making shit up because I used the word "curb stomp"? Can you remind us where "curb stomp" is defined in Webster's? Or are you just fulfilling the complete and utter dumbass prophecy that's been foretold? Please. I have better things to do with my time than such an idiotic and feeble charge.

Maul using one side of his blade is evidence he was testing him since he's a double-bladed lightsaber user. That's very simplistic to understand, so quit making shit up about me making shit up.

Advent, do you try anymore? You CLAIMED he was the best. Then you invoke a quote that supports my argument and contradicts yours. He was one of the best=/= the best. You then invoke ANOTHER quote which supports my argument that he was the most technically skilled duelist with "his skill.." Are you TRYING to make my argument for me. Being the most technically skilled=/=the best.

Originally posted by Advent
Anoon Bondara was the best duelist in the entire Jedi Order

How do those two quotes support your argument when mine is simply exactly what they say: he was the best duelist in the entire Jedi Order. Apparently, you're confused because I didn't specify "lightsaber" before duelist.

I'm not arguing that Kenobi is superior to Anakin because he won. I AM arguing that they are equals because they know each other so well, and Anakin couldn't penetrate Obi Wan's defense.

He fought on the defensive the entire fight. Skywalker couldn't penetrate his defenses EVEN on fair ground. Skywalker got impatient, he lost.

Obiwan gets kicks in, Anakin gets kicks in. My memory of WWF finishing moves is a little hazy so you'll have to remind me what the dragon sleeper is, because I don't think it is what you think it is. [/B]

👆 That's your interpretation; mine differs. And I expect the retort to go along the lines of "BUT MINE'S RIGHT ADVENT", to which I'll reply, "That's your interpretation; mine differs".

Originally posted by Advent
I'm "making shit up" because I used the word "curb stomp"? Can you remind us where "curb stomp" is defined in Webster's? Or are you just fulfilling the complete and utter dumbass prophecy you've been foretold? Please. I have better things to do with my time than such a idiotic and feeble charge.

👆 That's your interpretation; mine differs. And I expect the retort to go along the lines of "BUT MINE'S RIGHT ADVENT", to which I'll reply, "That's your interpretation; mine differs".

Um...No? I'm going to ask you once again. Are you even trying anymore?

"Renown for his skill with a lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded as a role model who's combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order." (Jedi Academy Training Manual, Ch. 6, pg. 97)

Combat prowess encapsulates all forms of combat related abilities right?

Originally posted by Nephthys
"Renown for his skill with a lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded as a role model who's combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order." (Jedi Academy Training Manual, Ch. 6, pg. 97)

Combat prowess encapsulates all forms of combat related abilities right?

Rofl

Huh?

Edit: Someone obviously has his panties in a twist.

I don't know if you were serious or not but the answer is no. Advent has difficulty differentiating between "most powerful" and "most skilled".

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Like..Making shit up? Curb stomp means Qui Gon got his ass kicked. Do you want to know what it [b]DOESN'T[/bi] mean? Qui Gon getting backed up.

Qui-Gon "just barely escaping with his life" when Maul was using one end of his blade isn't getting his ass kicked? I'd say it certainly is. You're making bogus arguments out of semantics.

You're an idiot advent. What is with the constant reaching? He was a double bladed light saber user who was also proficient with a single blade. How about the fact that he didn't think he needed a double blade against the one opponent? This is too easy.

You need to explain why "he didn't think he needed a double-bladed against one opponent" because it's out of character for Maul. Against even a padawan like Darsha Assant he used both blades. Why should that be any different than his battle on Tatooine? He was testing him and according to Qui-Gon, "tested him severely".

Sweetheart. You said he was the best duelist. I said he was the most technically skilled. Your quotes said that he was one of the BEST duelists, and the most skilled. Ergo, it supports my argument that he WASN'T the best, but the most skilled. Understand?

No, because the quote said that he was "one of the best fighters" (not duelist). When Jedi fight, they use the Force. Ergo, the Force was inclusive when that statement was made. Good game. Having "unmatched combat prowess" and "skill second to none" makes him the best lightsaber duelist of the Order. You've come up with nothing to contradict that other than repeating "he was the most technically skilled" as if that means something.

Um...No? I'm going to ask you once again. Are you even trying anymore?

I never have to try when I'm debating you. Your arguments about Anakin and Obi-Wan are based on what you interpreted from the duel. You are too entrenched in your beliefs and bitterness towards me that no matter what I say, you'll just say "no" because you only hear what you want to hear and are a damned troll.

Originally posted by Advent
Qui-Gon "just barely escaping with his life" when Maul was using one end of his blade isn't getting his ass kicked? I'd say it certainly is. You're making bogus arguments out of semantics.

You need to explain why "he didn't think he needed a double-bladed against one opponent" because it's out of character for Maul. Against even a padawan like Darsha Assant he used both blades. Why should that be any different than his battle on Tatooine? He was testing him and according to Qui-Gon, "tested him severely".[/quoted]
Same reason why he didn't finish off Obi wan when he had a chance? You weren't even insinuating that he COULD have been testing Qui Gonn. You just passed it off as fact.

[quote]No, because the quote said that he was "one of the best [b]fighters" (not duelist). When Jedi fight, they use the Force. Ergo, the Force was inclusive when that statement was made. Good game. Having "unmatched combat prowess" and "skill second to none" makes him the best lightsaber duelist of the Order. You've come up with nothing to contradict that other than repeating "he was the most technically skilled" as if that means something.

I never have to try when I'm debating you. Your arguments about Anakin and Obi-Wan are based on what you interpreted from the duel. You are too entrenched in your beliefs and bitterness towards me that no matter what I say, you'll just say "no" because you only hear what you want to hear and are a damned troll. [/B]

I have no bitterness towards you. I just laugh at your lack of self awareness when you claim I'm making shit up and that i'm a troll, with arguments like this. And you're right, you don't have to try, which is why you're getting your ass kicked.

Originally posted by Advent
Oh dear Buddha, Maul curbstomped Qui-Gon on Tatooine using one side of his blade and only testing him. Qui-Gon was left just short of losing his life and on the brink of a heart attack. On Naboo, he was beating both Jedi around like they were his redheaded step-children. The movie, the novel, and other materials (such as the Official Star Wars Fact File #1) corroborate that.

Define curbstomp? Also,on Naboo, the fight was clearly not as one-sided as you just stated it to be. At one point Maul was on the ground with QGJ trying to land the final blow, (from the movie) Maul kicks QGJ away, but that ends the use of the word curbstomp. Kenobi cutting his saber in half also ends the word curbstomp.

Curbstomp is Luke picking Jacen up and throwing him into the chair an not letting him move, imho. A fight that can go either way is not a curbstomp.

Anoon Bondara was the best duelist in the entire Jedi Order when it consisted of people like Mace Windu, Yoda, and Dooku. He was the battle master of the entire Order. Kenobi beat Grievous...and? How does that make him close to as good as people like Anoon or Maul?

Let us see... Kas'sim was the best DUELIST in his order, hardly made him the most powerful by a long shot. Kenobi beat Grievous and Dark Side anakin, Dark Side anakin made a JOKE out of count dooku. Grievous also has more combat feats than Bondara ever did.

His victory against Anakin was entirely situational. He didn't beat Anakin in a direct fight because he knew that he couldn't, and so do we.

This is bull. They fought a direct fight, Obi-Wan won. What is your definiton of a direct fight? Fists and teeth?

Kenobi didn't have any chance to pass on.

Kenobi gets both his hand on Anakin's lightsaber (supported by the movie, where they are holding each other's sabers together) He has the moment to kill Anakin, and hesitates, allowing Anakin to use the force to push Kenobi back.

Another "quote" from the book:

"kenobi gave ground, both because it was his way, and because he knew to strike Anakin down would burn his heart to ash."

At all. The movie shows Obi-Wan clearly trying to kill Anakin at every step. When he trips Anakin to the ground, he Force pulls his saber to him and tries to cleave him.

Not until the "He knew what do with attachement, he let it go" subquote most of the way through the fight. I will give you exact quotes later, or if you have ROTS, just read the fight.

Kenobi also didn't "dominate" the fight, he gave ground because he couldn't beat Anakin in a fair fight.

Prove it.

He didn't choose to give ground, he had to. Kenobi has to resort to distractions like platform balancing, swinging from cables, and lava skating.

I have an exact quote that makes every single part of this argument null and void.

it starts with " In every exchange, Kenobi gave way...." give it all to you tonight.

Second, when they went out onto the lava, they went there because "It was a place he (kenobi) decided, they should reach together."

Finally, even when being kicked outside for the first time, the Novel says that Kenobi did it on purpose. "positioned his blade so that Anakin's next kick carried him through the wall behind him."

I dont' blame you for not knowing this if you haven't read ROTS novel, but it is all very clearly laid out therein.

The movie shows Anakin forcing Kenobi to pull any trick he think of out of the bag and getting his ass beat with 20 second long Dragon Sleeper holds and melee attacks.

"In every exchange Kenobi gave ground." 3 blows of a saber and a kick is an exchange. A choke move followed by a throw is an exchange. Plus, the choke hold was the result of Kenobi passing on his chance to kill Anakin.

Even though, and I agree, that the movie makes it APPEAR as though Kenobi is getting it handed to him, the novel does not contradict the movie, but re-explains what is happening on screen to show that Kenobi is in control.
Since it doesn't contradict the movie, it IS canon.

The novel also says that Kenobi was trying to do anything he could to slow Anakin down. He wasn't able to match him directly. [/B]

First sentence, true. That really changes nothing by itself. Any combatant in any fight would be doing the same. Your spin on it in sentence 2 is speculation.

Wow TJ has common sense

Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001

3. Loses to anyone else.

What about that random sith lord in PoD that Bane said was so weak that it wasn't even worth mentioning his name?

Originally posted by truejedi
Define curbstomp? Also,on Naboo, the fight was clearly not as one-sided as you just stated it to be. At one point Maul was on the ground with QGJ trying to land the final blow, (from the movie) Maul kicks QGJ away, but that ends the use of the word curbstomp. Kenobi cutting his saber in half also ends the word curbstomp.[/b]

Originally posted by Advent
YouTube video

0:27-0:32 – Obi-wan flips over Maul, attempts to strike him WHILE in midair, casually blocked by Maul. He then attempts to strike from behind, Maul without even so much as breaking his eyes’ lock on Qui-Gon, blocks the attack. Then proceeds to dodge and parry multiple other attacks by Kenobi. All while focusing on Jinn.

What was that you said about “footwork, pacing, and ability to deflect attacks from almost any angle”? 😉

0:34 – Maul jump kicks Qui-Gon, knocking him on his ass for a few moments.

Notice how afterwards Maul cartwheels to the door, opening it with a piece of shrapnel while walking backwards towards the generator area. It’s made evident that this was him leading the duo. He is always giving ground even when his opponents are knocked down and he has the advantage. It is not because he had too, it is because it was his plan, FFS.

0:45 – Kenobi receives a swift boot to the face courtesy of Maul; he’s subsequently knocked on his ass, as well.

Maul jumps, leading Qui-Gon deeper into the generator room. There is about five seconds before Kenobi even appears, very important to note.

0:51 – Maul uses Qui-Gon’s lightsaber as a leverage tool, forcefully pushing his body into the pillar right as Obi-Wan comes back into the duel.

1:05-1:10 – Kenobi tries a feint attack, Maul doesn’t even flinch. After he flips back onto the walkway, he casually blocks two attacks at once with one edge of his lightsaber.

1:11-1:18 Maul is battling Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon with one in front of him, the other behind him. Both of them are attacking . Maul proceeds to snap kick Kenobi off the ledge, taking him out of the fight until the final sequence.

Using your method of “films-only”, it would appear that Maul did in fact have all the advantages, was in control, and was overwhelming them. It was they who struggled against him in every sense of the word.

Semantics won't be addressed because the arguments are just silly. That being said, let's take excerpts from The Phantom Menace novelization itself, found in chapters 22 and 23:

"Their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.

But on this day, he had met his match. The Sith Lord he battled with Obi - Wan was more than his equal in weapons training, and he had the advantage of being younger and stronger.

His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks.

So they challenged the Sith Lord quickly, and just as quickly discovered that their best efforts were not good enough.

They should have won this battle long ago. Against any other opponent, they would have. But the Sith Lord was battle trained and seasoned well beyond anyone they had ever encountered before. He had matched them blow for blow, and they weren't any closer to winning this fight now than they had been in the beginning.".

Qui-Gon Jinn scoring one blow doesn't mean he wasn't beaten like a redheaded stepchild (which is what I said, not "curb stomped"😉. If you recall, during their final portion of the duel, Qui-Gon is killed within 30 seconds. That is kicking ass no matter what way you look at it and evidence that Qui-Gon is a joke in comparison to Maul. I should point out that Maul had previously injured himself on Tatooine in a battle against Tusken raiders, which would have hindered his performance, too.

Curbstomp is Luke picking Jacen up and throwing him into the chair an not letting him move, imho. A fight that can go either way is not a curbstomp.

It wasn't a fight that could go either way.

Let us see... Kas'sim was the best DUELIST in his order, hardly made him the most powerful by a long shot. Kenobi beat Grievous and Dark Side anakin, Dark Side anakin made a JOKE out of count dooku. Grievous also has more combat feats than Bondara ever did.

I didn't say that Anoon Bondara was the most powerful. I said he was the best duelist. Did you miss how Kenobi beat Grievous through lightsaber combat? Did you miss how he didn't beat Anakin in a direct lightsaber combat (so references to Dooku are largely irrelevant)? Since we're talking about saber combat I would think that Anoon Bondara being the best duelist of his time is relevant, especially since Maul beat him.

This is bull. They fought a direct fight, Obi-Wan won. What is your definiton of a direct fight? Fists and teeth?

It's bullshit to say that on a location other than Mustafar, Obi-Wan's victory on Mustafar means nothing? I hope you realize what's wrong with that statement. If Kenobi doesn't have the same environment to manipulate, then claiming that he could best Anakin on any other grounds is nugatory. So, his victory was extremely situational.

That's why I don't consider it a "direct fight", an example of which would be dropping Obi-Wan and Anakin in a wrestling ring and having them duel it out. There's no place for Obi-Wan to run or things to cause distractions.

The duel is about 7 minutes long. A little over 2 minutes of which is spent on solid ground. The other 5? They are balance beam jumping, swinging on ropes, and lava skating. The majority of time is spent doing that, and that's why it wasn't a direct fight. Or are you suggesting that they can fight to their fullest extent while they are flying in the air on ropes? Come on. The fight was mostly fought on uneven ground.

He did. ROTS summary, because I'm at school, i'll give exact quotes for all these tonight. I've posted them elsewhere, but it was long ago.

Kenobi gets both his hand on Anakin's lightsaber (supported by the movie, where they are holding each other's sabers together) He has the moment to kill Anakin, and hesitates, allowing Anakin to use the force to push Kenobi back.

What are you talking about? At no point does Obi-Wan have both his and Anakin's lightsaber. The novel has elements that completely contradict what we're shown in the movie. That happens to be one of them. As such, Obi-Wan never hesitated or showed any compassion.

When Anakin is lying flat on his back, Kenobi doesn't hesitate to pull his lightsaber back into his hands and then immediately tries to cleave Anakin in half. This was in the movie and Kenobi is obviously trying to kill Anakin.

"kenobi gave ground, both because it was his way, and because he knew to strike Anakin down would burn his heart to ash."

This was said at the very start of the duel. Obi-Wan lets go of everything after he gets put in the dragon sleeper hold (according to the novel), which occurs 1 MINUTE into 7 minute duel. He didn't have any qualms about Anakin lying flat out on his back, because he isn't shown to hesitate when he has the opportunity to kill him.

Not until the "He knew what do with attachement, he let it go" subquote most of the way through the fight. I will give you exact quotes later, or if you have ROTS, just read the fight.

He lets go of everything 1 minute into the fight if we follow the novel. That's what we call "early on in the fight".

I have an exact quote that makes every single part of this argument null and void.

it starts with " In every exchange, Kenobi gave way...." give it all to you tonight.

I hope you realize that Kenobi "giving ground" is still compatible with Anakin pushing him back. It says that Kenobi was doing "anything he could to slow him down", indicating he couldn't stop him outright. He didn't concoct the idea to go lava skating and platform jumping from the beginning of the duel. That means he wasn't necessarily leading Anakin anywhere until he was off solid ground and made it almost impossible for Anakin to catch him. That means he was only really dictating where the fight went and only after they started performing acrobatics.

Second, when they went out onto the lava, they went there because "It was a place he (kenobi) decided, they should reach together."

^

Finally, even when being kicked outside for the first time, the Novel says that Kenobi did it on purpose. "positioned his blade so that Anakin's next kick carried him through the wall behind him."

That doesn't speak for anything other than Kenobi's prep against that one attack. I'm not even sure what the quote means or if this is featured in the film...Anakin's "next kick carried him through the wall behind him" - did I miss where he broke through a stone wall or something?

I dont' blame you for not knowing this if you haven't read ROTS novel, but it is all very clearly laid out therein.

🙄

"In every exchange Kenobi gave ground." 3 blows of a saber and a kick is an exchange. A choke move followed by a throw is an exchange. Plus, the choke hold was the result of Kenobi passing on his chance to kill Anakin.

Even though, and I agree, that the movie makes it APPEAR as though Kenobi is getting it handed to him, the novel does not contradict the movie, but re-explains what is happening on screen to show that Kenobi is in control.

Since it doesn't contradict the movie, it IS canon.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Clearly, parts of the novel that you've used do contradict the movie.