Originally posted by Advent
Semantics won't be addressed because the arguments are just silly. That being said, let's take excerpts from The Phantom Menace novelization itself, found in chapters 22 and 23:
By semantics do you mean what happened in the fight, that is very important.
"Their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.But on this day, he had met his match. The Sith Lord he battled with Obi - Wan was more than his equal in weapons training, and he had the advantage of being younger and stronger.
His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks.
So they challenged the Sith Lord quickly, and just as quickly discovered that their best efforts were not good enough.
That is a very strong quote and kudos for using it, but I wasn't claiming that Maul wasn't stronger. He showed that he was, But being the stronger(more powerful, better, w/e adjective have you) in a duel doesn't guarantee success unless you are so much stronger than the opponents that you cannot be touched. It takes a split second for a lesser opponent to kill a stronger opponent. Maul had those moments where he could have died (you call it scemantics?) that means he didn't curbstomp. Since this is a hand-to-hand fight, I beg to differ that there were several moments in the duel when he could have died, and THAT removes the word curbstomp. A curbstomp is a 10 second, 20 second fight. Sidious curbstomps 3 jedi masters before fighting windu. This wasn't a curbstomp. It was a fight in which maul was better.
These moments of possible death come at 1:30, and at 3:51 if maul is a split second slower. It also lasted 5 minutes. It hardly fit the definition of curbstomp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPLXwrj7i7Q&feature=related
They should have won this battle long ago. Against any other opponent, they would have. But the Sith Lord was battle trained and seasoned well beyond anyone they had ever encountered before. He had matched them blow for blow, and they weren't any closer to winning this fight now than they had been in the beginning.".
This kinda actually stands as a contradiction to your first two quotes above. Saying they should have won the battle long ago doesn't really do anything to make this sound like a curbstomp. I'm not saying Maul didn't have the advantage remember.
Qui-Gon Jinn scoring one blow doesn't mean he wasn't beaten like a redheaded stepchild (which is what I said, not "curb stomped"😉.
If you recall, during their final portion of the duel, Qui-Gon is killed within 30 seconds. That is kicking ass no matter what way you look at it and evidence that Qui-Gon is a joke in comparison to Maul. I should point out that Maul had previously injured himself on Tatooine in a battle against Tusken raiders, which would have hindered his performance, too.
IF that was the entire duel, I would agree with you. However, the solo duel between Maul and QGJ began when Obi-Wan fell.
It wasn't a fight that could go either way.
As evidenced by the 2 video references above, and the unpredictability of melee combat, it was. Maul coming off the floor a split second later would have had him killed by Kenobi, while laying on the ground , without the kick, QGJ would have taken him out.
This duel wasn't as one-sided as you are trying to say.
I didn't say that Anoon Bondara was the most powerful. I said he was the best duelist. Did you miss how Kenobi beat Grievous through lightsaber combat? Did you miss how he didn't beat Anakin in a direct lightsaber combat (so references to Dooku are largely irrelevant)? Since we're talking about saber combat I would think that Anoon Bondara being the best duelist of his time is relevant, especially since Maul beat him.
Right, we agree about Bondara then. Being the best duelist means not nearly as much when you realize how important the force is in a duel between force weilders. Not to short-change Bondara, but it doesn't mean that Maul beat the best the order had to offer.
To counter that: I would give you the quote from ROTS novelization where Mace says to kenobi:
"In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him. Pg. 294"
Does this mean Obi-wan is the most dangerous of living jedi? hardly. Does this mean that Maul beating him is a greater feat than beating Yoda? no.
It's bullshit to say that on a location other than Mustafar, Obi-Wan's victory on Mustafar means nothing? I hope you realize what's wrong with that statement. If Kenobi doesn't have the same environment to manipulate, then claiming that he could best Anakin on any other grounds is nugatory. So, his victory was extremely situational.
So you are saying in a land WITHOUT an environment that Anakin would kill Kenobi? That is kinda pointless isn't it, as every fight has an environment. It is kinda painting with a broad brush to say that location was absolutely everything to this fight, when they spent an inordinate amount of time fighting at arms length. Yes, Kenobi got the high-ground, and Anakin tried to leap over him at the end of the fight, but the only case where it would be possible for this to occur would be in a setting with absolutely no ledges or changes in terrain.
That's why I don't consider it a "direct fight", an example of which would be dropping Obi-Wan and Anakin in a wrestling ring and having them duel it out. There's no place for Obi-Wan to run or things to cause distractions.
Where did Kenobi run in ROTS? I must have missed that.
The duel is about 7 minutes long. A little over 2 minutes of which is spent on solid ground. The other 5? They are balance beam jumping, swinging on ropes, and lava skating. The majority of time is spent doing that, and that's why it wasn't a direct fight. Or are you suggesting that they can fight to their fullest extent while they are flying in the air on ropes? Come on. The fight was mostly fought on uneven ground.
My point, in all of this, is that Kenobi CHOSE to use that ground. He fought with the same limitations as Anakin in every instance that you named there.
second: I have a problem with the 2/5 minute thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwy412nttI
at the 1:34 mark, it cuts away from the fight scene between anakin and obi-wan. We have no idea how long that cut away is for. Any details from the novel that are absent from the screen, easily fit into that abscence, and are still canon.
What are you talking about? At no point does Obi-Wan have both his and Anakin's lightsaber. The novel has elements that completely contradict what we're shown in the movie. That happens to be one of them. As such, Obi-Wan never hesitated or showed any compassion.
novel: "Obi-Wan reached. ANakin's lightsaber twisted in the air and flipped into his hand. He poised both blades in a cross before him. "the flaw of power is arrogance."
"You hesitate," Anakin said. "The flaw of compassion--"
"It's not compassion, Obi-Wan said sadly. "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were."
He sighed. " It's regret for the man you were."
This scene actually fits very well into the cut-away from the 1:34 mark of ROTS. Remember, no contradiction makes novel still canon.
When Anakin is lying flat on his back, Kenobi doesn't hesitate to pull his lightsaber back into his hands and then immediately tries to cleave Anakin in half. This was in the movie and Kenobi is obviously trying to kill Anakin.
Well, yes... I agree with that. I said the reason Kenobi giving ground was a result of his hesitance to kill Anakin. It was also his way. That is supported by the novel. Given the opportunity, he was still willing to land the killing blow. That is obvious by the end of the duel.
Pg. 397 "In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash."
That, coupled with the quote from above provides that there was more hesitation on Kenobi's part than was present in his duel with Grievous, and certainly more hesitation than Maul had with either Bondara or QGJ.
Also evidenced by Pg. 403: Which, is when they are fighting on the conduit, 2:45-2:55 of the above clip. Not to say kenobi was holding back, but he it was at THAT point, not the 1:07 mark, as you said that he let his attachement go.
"Obi Wan still loved him...Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for atachment... He let it go."