Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
The fact that we GL says that the Jedi we see in the PT is the "Jedi in their prime," says enough. That would be their prime in all facets.I know you don't like when the creator says something that goes against what you want, but you have to remember Lucas>>>>>>>>>Glentract
You can't blanket that one statement to cover "all facets." Thats total bullshit. And it doesn't change the fact Luke actually showed pretty impressive Force power when partially lifting his X-wing.
Its not bullshit at all. Their prime - at fighting, at utilizing the force, diplomacy... everything. if you don't think so, then you have to prove that he only meant A, B, or C.
Luke, in partially lifting his ship, actually completely failed in lifting his ship. He didn't accomplish it. He always wanted to quit, and even failed at the rock training. He's nowhere close to even being a league below the other 3.
I can't help but not take Subjekt seriously when he comes out with this kind of sh1t. Sorry, but no, such a statement could be in reference to any specific attribute, as it could be to all specific attributes, or an overall assessment of attributes. Glentract pointing out that you're not in a position to say that George Lucas was definitively stating it in the style of the second does not mean that he has to prove that he was stating it in the style of the first.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Its not bullshit at all. Their prime - at fighting, at utilizing the force, diplomacy... everything. if you don't think so, then you have to prove that he only meant A, B, or C.
Luke, in [b]partially lifting his ship, actually completely failed in lifting his ship. He didn't accomplish it. He always wanted to quit, and even failed at the rock training. He's nowhere close to even being a league below the other 3. [/B]
Incorrect. Lucas' statement doesn't automatically blanket to all aspects. Were they the prime Jedi in bed? The prime of the Jedi when it comes to failing? Prime can not be assumed to cover all things because then it would have to cover the negatives too.
Luke partially lifting his ship still required an incredible amount of Force power, more than I remember Obi-wan or Anakin having demonstrated.
Originally posted by Darth_GlentractLucas was refering to combat prowess. I don't think Lucas thought he had to spell it out for people to get it. You are not slow; you know what he meant. Do you think he meant the prime at gambling?
Incorrect. Lucas' statement doesn't automatically blanket to all aspects. Were they the prime Jedi in bed? The prime of the Jedi when it comes to failing? Prime can not be assumed to cover all things because then it would have to cover the negatives too.
Luke partially lifting his ship still required an incredible amount of Force power, more than I remember Obi-wan or Anakin having demonstrated.Obi-Wan ripped a huge machine from the ceiling to crush magna guards. He and Anakin easily lifted huge boulders that were alot bigger than the rocks Luke struggled with.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Lucas was refering to combat prowess. I don't think Lucas thought he had to spell it out for people to get it. You are not slow; you know what he meant. Do you think he meant the prime at gambling?
According to Darth Subjekt, that is what Lucas was saying.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Obi-Wan ripped a huge machine from the ceiling to crush magna guards. He and Anakin easily lifted huge boulders that were alot bigger than the rocks Luke struggled with.
When was this? Please don't tell me during the Clone Wars cartoons.
Originally posted by Darth_GlentractYou truly are an idiot. A negative wouldn't be a prime. And combat prowess would include what I said, fighting and force mastery. Why is that so far fetched? Your poor attempts at sarcasm are in fact humorous, but not the way you would like them to be. They're laughable due to the sheer ignorance they are laced with. In bed? Right, cause that's something that the Jedi partake in. Gambling... same thing. All that were the "Jedi" is to what he was referring. Force mastery and fighting ability make up combat prowess as most, if not all, Jedi utilize the force to aide them while in combat.
Incorrect. Lucas' statement doesn't automatically blanket to all aspects. Were they the prime Jedi in bed? The prime of the Jedi when it comes to failing? Prime can not be assumed to cover all things because then it would have to cover the negatives too.Luke partially lifting his ship still required an incredible amount of Force power, more than I remember Obi-wan or Anakin having demonstrated.
And you're right, Luke failing to lift his ship far supersedes Anakin skydiving hundred of stories through traffic to land on the ONE speeder he was aiming for. Collapsing a building just by yelling. Throwing a Jedi Temple statue through a wall. The aforementioned showings listed by Sids 66. The incredible lava surfing and super jumps to land on a piece of metal just big enough for your feet.Yea. they've done nothing. Luke pwns them all.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
You truly are an idiot. A negative wouldn't be a prime. And combat prowess would include what I said, fighting and force mastery. Why is that so far fetched? Your poor attempts at sarcasm are in fact humorous, but not the way you would like them to be. They're laughable due to the sheer ignorance they are laced with. In bed? Right, cause that's something that the Jedi partake in. Gambling... same thing. All that were the "Jedi" is to what he was referring. Force mastery and fighting ability make up combat prowess as most, if not all, Jedi utilize the force to aide them while in combat.
Warriors is NOT what the Jedi were supposed to be in their "Golden Age." They were peace keepers who worked with negotiation and compromise. They weren't interested in starting fights. The Golden Age WAS a golden age for them because they didn't have to fight. They had defeated the Sith and brought relative peace to the Galaxy. That has nothing to do with one on one combat ability.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
And you're right, Luke failing to lift his ship far supersedes Anakin skydiving hundred of stories through traffic to land on the ONE speeder he was aiming for. Collapsing a building just by yelling. Throwing a Jedi Temple statue through a wall. The aforementioned showings listed by Sids 66. The incredible lava surfing and super jumps to land on a piece of metal just big enough for your feet.Yea. they've done nothing. Luke pwns them all.
Are you not going to source the "aforementioned showings listed by Sids 66" either? Come on man.
And when the hell did Anakin collapse a building by yelling or throw a Temple statue through a wall? You aren't referring to the ROTS game are you? The rest of the feats are impressive, but don't demonstrate raw power in the same sense as the X-wing showing.
I'm not saying that Luke is all around better than Anakin or Obi-wan by any means, but he did show very impressive Force power lifting the X-wing as high as he did. And may I remind you that this was only about half way into his training with Yoda. From when he got to Dagobagh to then, he went from barely pulling his lightsaber from the snow to the X-wing feat. Who knows how much more powerful he got by the time he left. Add in the additional teaching at Ben's house on Tatooine, and by ROTJ he was for all intents and purposes pretty damn capable. Granted, Sidious floored him with lightning, but Luke didn't have his saber to block with. He'd have to be Yoda to do that and I'm NOT claiming anything like that.
Originally posted by Darth_GlentractLucas did not say they were in their golden age. He said they were in their prime, and he was refering to combat prowess. He said something like "You will see the jedi in their prime". He was talking about the prequel trilogy. It was a way of getting the veiwers excited to see a lot more action. Lucas was not talking about their prime in peace, since the PT is mainly about a galaxy wide conflict.
Warriors is NOT what the Jedi were supposed to be in their "Golden Age." They were peace keepers who worked with negotiation and compromise. They weren't interested in starting fights. The Golden Age WAS a golden age for them because they didn't have to fight. They had defeated the Sith and brought relative peace to the Galaxy. That has nothing to do with one on one combat ability.
A jedi's philosophy is negotiation first, yes. But they are more then just negotiators. They were training to refight the old wars with the sith
Are you not going to source the "aforementioned showings listed by Sids 66" either? Come on man.Why not? Because you don't like it? They came from canon sources. One of them being ROTS, and the other was the newer clone wars cartoon.
And when the hell did Anakin collapse a building by yellingLabyrinth of Evil.
or throw a Temple statue through a wall?Not sure about this one.
You aren't referring to the ROTS game are you?He wasn't
The rest of the feats are impressive,Way more impressive than anything Luke did at that point.
but don't demonstrate raw power in the same sense as the X-wing showing.That was a good demonstration of raw power to you?
I'm not saying that Luke is all around better than Anakin or Obi-wan by any means, but he did show very impressive Force power lifting the X-wing as high as he did.He was not even close at lifting it. He shook it some and then it sunk even deeper than before.
And may I remind you that this was only about half way into his training with Yoda. From when he got to Dagobagh to then, he went from barely pulling his lightsaber from the snow to the X-wing feat. Who knows how much more powerful he got by the time he left. Add in the additional teaching at Ben's house on Tatooine, and by ROTJ he was for all intents and purposes pretty damn capable. Granted, Sidious floored him with lightning, but Luke didn't have his saber to block with. He'd have to be Yoda to do that and I'm NOT claiming anything like that.The point is Luke has not shown the raw power in ROTJ as Anakin did by ROTS, or even as much skill. Luke is not capable of standing against Sidious. He would get floored even with a saber.
Why is it so hard to accept that the average Jedi of the PT>the average Jedi in the previous eras. Blanket statements like the one Lucas made can't be applied to individuals, but rather the Order as a whole. In general, on average, the PT Jedi are more combat-capable than any other. Individuals excluded.
Glen, I apologize for my being a little brash before. It was uncalled for at that juncture. However, the "training he got from Ben at his house" was like a few hours max. He went there, got his sense back along with a brief history lesson, and then went home to see. Along the way they found the Jawas and then made it home to find his uncle and aunt burned up. Then they went to Mos Eisly (spelling?) and got with Han and Chewy, and the rest is, as they say, history.
I know that given his natural potential (thanks Dad, aka Anakin) that under Yoda he progressed rather quickly, but not to the point to contend with these guys.