Who crosses the line more, Batman or Daredevil

I think the expectations of the characters are somewhat different, and the pressures.
Batman is like the savior of Gotham, working with the police against crime and all the super villains - chiefly, Joker. He does this mostly alone, with occasional support from the Huntress & Nightwing, and is so obsessive he's lucky to be rich and have someone run his company for him.
Daredevil is someone who mostly looks after his corner of New York City - a city that has a lot of vigilantes and superheroes - and has to have a day job to perform well in to keep going, and has a chief foe (Kingpin) who is just beyond the reach of the law.

I think there is more pressure on Batman to have the answers to fix Gotham, and so gets more criticism on how Joker continues to murder at will and spread misery. Daredevil does all he can do, but finds himself caught in the contradiction of enforcing the law by day but edging towards breaking it at night.

Originally posted by The Nuul
Evil mystical Ninjas don't really count as people.

Well they're still alive.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well they're still alive.

If they turn to dust when they die they're not real people.

Well the status quo has changed. DD toppled the Kingpin twice, declared himself the kingpin, went to jail, and has now joined the Hand in an effort to reform them form within and defeat the influence of the Snakeroot. Furthermore, though legally dubious, his identity is an open secret since being outed by a tabloid.

Originally posted by roughrider
If they turn to dust when they die they're not real people.

That irrelevant. They still think, feel and have emotions.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
That irrelevant. They still think, feel and have emotions.

Apparently not. Their only interest is getting paid to kill anyone outside their circle.
If you're going to claim such deaths at the hands of Daredevil, let's see some scans.

no scanner I'm afraid. I throw myself at the mercy of my peers.

Originally posted by roughrider
Apparently not. Their only interest is getting paid to kill anyone outside their circle.

Doesn't mean they are not alive that means they're brainwashed. That also doesnt disprove wether they can think or have emotions they still do.

Originally posted by roughrider

If you're going to claim such deaths at the hands of Daredevil, let's see some scans.

Yes I like how you haven't even proved wether they are alive or not yet but are convienetly now trying to demand scans from me of wether DD has killed Hand ninjas. Why on earth would you do that unless you know your argument for them not being alive is weak?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Yes I like how you haven't even proved wether they are alive or not yet but are convienetly now trying to demand scans from me of wether DD has killed Hand ninjas. Why on earth would you do that unless you know your argument for them not being alive is weak?

Because we can spend several hours discussing the meaning of life and what counts as living - or maybe the simplier way is showing scans of such events happening, because I haven't heard of Daredevil killing any members of The Hand.
Him doing so would seem to go against how he does his job in Hell's Kitchen.

Originally posted by roughrider
Because we can spend several hours discussing the meaning of life and what counts as living -

Yeah and we might just do that, turning to dust when you die doesn't mean your not alive. Think about it, that simply means using that logic that other lifeforms that die and act differently to other humans aren't alive because they are different. Alive = sentient, not neccsarily human.

Originally posted by roughrider

or maybe the simplier way is showing scans of such events happening, because I haven't heard of Daredevil killing any members of The Hand.
Him doing so would seem to go against how he does his job in Hell's Kitchen.

The nearest thing off the top of my head is letting and giving The Punisher permission to gun down The Hand and then later on in that issue getting upset because Pun tried to kill the Slug.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah and we might just do that, turning to dust when you die doesn't mean your not alive. Think about it, that simply means using that logic that other lifeforms that die and act differently to other humans aren't alive because they are different. Alive = sentient, not neccsarily human.

The nearest thing off the top of my head is letting and giving The Punisher permission to gun down The Hand and then later on in that issue getting upset because Pun tried to kill the Slug.

You know, if you look at my earlier posts, I have already given two examples of deaths by Daredevil & Batman ( 'Born Again', 'Cosmic Odyssey'😉 when they had no choice. We're talking here about Daredevil killing members of The Hand en masse, like he was Wolverine. Sounds like it didn't really happen, then.

Originally posted by roughrider
You know, if you look at my earlier posts, I have already given two examples of deaths by Daredevil & Batman ( 'Born Again', 'Cosmic Odyssey'😉 when they had no choice.

Yeah ok, so?

Originally posted by roughrider

We're talking here about Daredevil killing members of The Hand en masse, like he was Wolverine.

He probably has. Hell Nomad killed some by just punching and kicking them.

Originally posted by roughrider
Sounds like it didn't really happen, then.

Okkkk you do realise that its still relevant to the subject? You do realise that he allowed somebody to kill a sentient being and you realsie he could have stopped him?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Okkkk you do realise that its still relevant to the subject? You do realise that he allowed somebody to kill a sentient being and you realsie he could have stopped him?

In 'Born Again' he fired a rocket launcher he took from Nuke and destroyed a helicopter (and it's pilot) when it was shooting away at civilians. I think THAT is a more relevant example of him taking lethal force in his hands than this Hand argument you are fixated on.

Did he or did he not fight and kill members of them - Yes or No?

Not "Well, he didn't try to stop Punisher from gunning them down..."

Originally posted by steverules_2
DD for sure, I mean lets face it if DD's main arch enemy was joker then DD would kill him without hesitation

I mean joker may survive a few storylines with DD but after a while I'm DD would take it upon himself to kill joker, but Batman...well jokers done many horrible things to the people that batman cares about the most but batman still refuses to kill joker and I think that shows that Batman has been taken to the limits and still refuses to kill...but DD kills and tortures and doesn't care...think that answers the question to this thread

Originally posted by willRules
I think DD's just more likely to. I don't think he would kill and he's had the chance to kill Bullseye or the Punisher before and stated it was a line he wouldn't cross.

Whereas with Batman, it's more deeply grained into his origin and his psyche. His whole thing is that he witnessed his parent's murders and swore it wouldn't happen to anyone else. That's why he's even saved the lives of his villains before. DD, by comparison, adopts a similar moral outlook but it's not so ingrained into him. He keeps just getting brought right to the abyss, but just manages to pull himself back every time.

also well said which is why I also got to go with Daredevil easily.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
This was kind of prompted by a comment in another thread. Now I'm not exactly a regular Batman reader but am much more of a Daredevil fan. The comment was that supposedly DD is locked in a cycle with certain foes just like Batman is because of his unwillingness to kill. This referring to the main Batman and the main 616 Daredevil.

In fact, I believe that DD is much more brutal than Batman ever was. He routinely beats opponents into traction regardless of whether or not they have powers. He's killed before, in fact when battling the Hand, he kills their ninjas without a second thought even though they are human beings. He's also used deadly force against common thugs during times when he's been driven to insanity. Lately, he's been torturing criminals, specifically Hammerhead, Bullseye, and Ox and even said he felt good about it. When was the last time Batman suspended Bane from the ceiling with chains and went at him with a blow torch or carved a target into Joker's head with a rock? Finally, DD has actually attempted to murder both of his arch villains. During born again, he went into the Kingpin's office with the intention of murdering him and was severely beaten, though in a what if story, it clearly shows murderous intent. He's done the same to Bullseye. In fact he found out his secret identity and his past during a time when he stalked Bullseye with the intention of killing him in his sleep. He crosses the line waaaay more despite, and possibly because he's a lawyer...

Thoughts?

Not to mention the opening post on the start of this the thread is why Dardevil wins easily as well .

Let's not forget another Jim Starlin Batman storyline - 'Ten Nights Of The Beast'. Batman locks the KGBeast in an underground chamber basically to starve to death.
It was only a year later in 'Batman Year 3' that Nightwing takes him to task over it - Batman says he called the police eventually - but Dick contends it was much later, and that Bruce seriously thought about letting him die. Bruce didn't deny it.

Two more examples, one kind of non-canon, the other semi-canon. The first is from an old issue of what if... regarding Born Again. Here DD pockets the gun off the cop he takes out on the subway, and then upon arriving in Fisk's office, simply shoots him in the head. Granted he's survived Echo doing that, this time...not so lucky. I consider What if... stuff to occasionally be relevant because the events described are small changes in fate (initially) and do not necessarily differ from cannon motivations and attitudes of a character.

The second example comes from Man Without Fear. That whole book is only semi-canon because a lot of the events are contradictory, but this is one that's been brought up later. In the last issue, while protecting a girl from who was at that time the Kingpin's chief assassin, DD knocks a bullet back at him, taking out his frontal lobe and showing no remorse for it. Pretty cold.

Im a huge Batman fan but DD ftw. Batman dosnt kill. DD will if he must. thts just how it is

Originally posted by Indestructible
Im a huge Batman fan but DD ftw. Batman dosnt kill. DD will if he must. thts just how it is

Yet he's had so many opportunities to kill Bullseye and hasn't done it; he has more reason to kill him than anyone else.
He has come close - in the aftermath of Bullseye killing Elektra, DD dropped him from a height of several stories, which led to his longtime hospitalization and adamantium bone replacements (actually, DD was holding him up, and Bullseye was going to stab him anyway with a sai, so it could be justifiable self preservation.)
Then while stuck in the hospital, DD appeared at his bedside and played Russian Roulette with a .38 on him, only to reveal as he pulled the trigger on the final chamber that he had no bullets. He said they were just stuck together.