Who crosses the line more, Batman or Daredevil

Originally posted by roughrider
Yet he's had so many opportunities to kill Bullseye and hasn't done it; he has more reason to kill him than anyone else.
He has come close - in the aftermath of Bullseye killing Elektra, DD dropped him from a height of several stories, which led to his longtime hospitalization and adamantium bone replacements (actually, DD was holding him up, and Bullseye was going to stab him anyway with a sai, so it could be justifiable self preservation.)
Then while stuck in the hospital, DD appeared at his bedside and played Russian Roulette with a .38 on him, only to reveal as he pulled the trigger on the final chamber that he had no bullets. He said they were just stuck together.

Still looks kind of deliberate to me considering what DD says, despite Bullseye trying to stab him.

God damn Daredevil is badass

I also want to point out that the Colonel piloting Nuke's helicopter survived and gave testimony against the Kingpin in DD 300. I don't remember off the top of my head, but I believe he was killed by either the Kingpin or HYDRA

Originally posted by Darth Jello
I also want to point out that the Colonel piloting Nuke's helicopter survived and gave testimony against the Kingpin in DD 300. I don't remember off the top of my head, but I believe he was killed by either the Kingpin or HYDRA

🤨 He survived that explosion? He had nowhere to go - chopper was blown up in the air.

Don't know what to tell ya. Maybe I'm confusing two characters. I'll check my copies of the Last Rites issues tonight and make sure. I'm fairly certain he was alive though.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Don't know what to tell ya. Maybe I'm confusing two characters. I'll check my copies of the Last Rites issues tonight and make sure. I'm fairly certain he was alive though.

Maybe it was the Colonel/General at the New York headquarters who testified - the same one who brushed off Captain America when he came in with questions about Nuke. He was in video contact with the Kingpin about how they will contain the story.

Originally posted by roughrider
In 'Born Again' he fired a rocket launcher he took from Nuke and destroyed a helicopter (and it's pilot) when it was shooting away at civilians. I think THAT is a more relevant example of him taking lethal force in his hands than this Hand argument you are fixated on.

What you don't get is that im not denying it didn't happen.

Originally posted by roughrider

Did he or did he not fight and kill members of them - Yes or No?

Not "Well, he didn't try to stop Punisher from gunning them down..."

Look no offense but I think the point im trying to make has gone completely over your head.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

Look no offense but I think the point im trying to make has gone completely over your head.

No...I think you made a statement you can't back up with facts, is all. You're evading.

Originally posted by roughrider
No...I think you made a statement you can't back up with facts, is all. You're evading.

See your still not getting it. I understand that the example isn't of DD killing any Hand ninjas, but the topic of discussion is who crosses the line more. DD didn't kill any Hand ninjas but as a crime fighter its his duty to prevent the loss of life and he often does that by physically restraing people and therefore preventing them killing or hurting others. By allowing Punisher to kill sentient beings he is not doing his duty and is responsible for their deaths because he could have prevented it.

😐

I DD is probably in the top 12 skilled fighters in the marvel universe but he's not up to par to stopping any member of the chaste or master izo from killing someone. Oh, and checking back, it was the General in court, not the pilot. I guess DD did kill that guy. Oh and in DD 189, there is a panel or two where DD is killing the Hand directly, including one where he's stabbing one in the head with Sai.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
See your still not getting it. I understand that the example isn't of DD killing any Hand ninjas, but the topic of discussion is who crosses the line more. DD didn't kill any Hand ninjas but as a crime fighter its his duty to prevent the loss of life and he often does that by physically restraing people and therefore preventing them killing or hurting others. By allowing Punisher to kill sentient beings he is not doing his duty and is responsible for their deaths because he could have prevented it.

😐

And I believe that is not the same thing.
Daredevil also didn't stop Punisher using heavy armaments and firearms against some trolls from Asgard led by Ulik, who were on a rampage through New York(the scans should be in the Punisher Respect Thread.) Punisher may not have succeeded in killing them, but what if he had been? If all life is sacred, then I guess he failed his duty there as well.
Unless he knows sometimes you have to pick your spots. But Batman knows that too - he recently shot & killed Darkseid, didn't he?

Originally posted by roughrider
And I believe that is not the same thing.

Not the samething is killing somebody? Like I said it doesn't matter.

Originally posted by roughrider

Daredevil also didn't stop Punisher using heavy armaments and firearms against some trolls from Asgard led by Ulik, who were on a rampage through New York(the scans should be in the Punisher Respect Thread.) Punisher may not have succeeded in killing them, but what if he had been? If all life is sacred, then I guess he failed his duty there as well.

Unless he knows sometimes you have to pick your spots. But Batman knows that too - he recently shot & killed Darkseid, didn't he?

The bottomline is those people were killed because they weren't human. Hell well ok Batman killed Darkseid? Oh ok so its not enough to be mass murdering pyschopath you have to become an. evil god. So its mass mudering pyschopath....sacred. Evil God not sacred? Hypocrisy.

Furthermore if your going to use pick your spots as an excuse hand ninjas were nowhere near potentially dangerous as Ulik and his rock trolls, so what reason was there for DD to pick his spot? They weren't human thats it.

Maybe we can end this debate this way.
I think Batman and Daredevil sit on the same side of the line and are pretty much equal on staying on that side, despite the exceptions listed.
I haven't voted because I'm not sure either has crossed the line enough to make an argument one way or the other.
But, after thinking it over, I believe the one who has the potential to go further when really pressed - is Daredevil. (Hypothetically)

Bruce is too scarred by watching his parent's murder to consider lethal force; it goes against the very methods he uses to fight crime and be the example he wants to set.
Matt also had a parent gunned down and believes in setting an example, but he has shown more often a capability to lose his mind and do something irrational or crazy; Batman tries to be cold and contained at all times by comparison (which is kind of like The Punisher, without the calm methodology of killing your foes.)

Well, past wise, I feel like Bruce still (as far as I know) has a pretty idealized version of his parents prior to their murder. Everything in DD's past has been given at least somewhat of a dark twist.

His mother abandoned him to become a nun, he caught his father crying after wrestling in a Devil outfit, his father beat him at least once, he caught his dad working protection, and the blind guy he saved in the accident which gave him his supposed powers (it was later revealed that this just jump started natural senses that everyone can develop, that DD has no super powers per se and really is actually at a slight disadvantage being blind) turned out to be a horrible alcoholic who raped his daughter, herself becoming the serial murderer Johnny Sockets.

I don't remember Bruce's childhood prior to his Parents' death being that twisted.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Well, past wise, I feel like Bruce still (as far as I know) has a pretty idealized version of his parents prior to their murder. Everything in DD's past has been given at least somewhat of a dark twist.

His mother abandoned him to become a nun, he caught his father crying after wrestling in a Devil outfit, his father beat him at least once, he caught his dad working protection, and the blind guy he saved in the accident which gave him his supposed powers (it was later revealed that this just jump started natural senses that everyone can develop, that DD has no super powers per se and really is actually at a slight disadvantage being blind) turned out to be a horrible alcoholic who raped his daughter, herself becoming the serial murderer Johnny Sockets.

I don't remember Bruce's childhood prior to his Parents' death being that twisted.

It's funny how those two pasts have created very different personalities.
Bruce is cold & withdrawn towards almost everyone - you have to really work at him to get genuine feeling. It's self protection against loss in his mind. While Matt has a large number of real friends, and has real relationships with women (that unfortunately always seem to end in tragedy.) Matt seems to be crazier - of course as Daredevil he seems crazy, in contrast to Batman's cold monster of vengeance - but is he actually better adjusted than Bruce? He deals with things. Bruce bottles things up and ignores them.

As much as I love DD, I feel like this thread is leaning a little light on Batman. Can we have some details or counterarguments please? Otherwise this can simply be merged with the DD respect thread if it becomes a Matt Murdock ass kissing party.

Daredevil's a less mainstream character, and writers can therefore make more drastic changes to the character. If Batman blew up a helicopter with a rocket launcher, a lot of fanboys would be pretty pissed off. Miller made it pretty clear that Daredevil's pretty ****ed up, and that actually he could lose it in a way that Batman hasn't really been shown to in mainstream continuity.
Yeah, I know someone's going to come and tell me how wrong I am and how examples X, Y and Z contradict this now...

hmmm, how about the helicopter fight at the end of Death in the Family?