Originally posted by Placidity
4. You are right here (Newton not only unit, not Ton is a measure of force), I did say that and I was wrong on this point.
K. Fair enough.
And I'll admit that eliminating the gravitational constant from the numerator and denominator, while algebraically sound, is not sound for the intended calculation. (I already admitted that, indirectly, but I'll directly admit it.) On top of that, the original calculation was just simply wrong. (I admitted that already, as well.) I needed to incorporate the actual time used against the "mass" of the train to calucuate force, not calculate based off of a guessed force, which I originally did. In my defense, I was trying to replicate previous results by working them backwards. I came up with 9000 newtons or something (which was also wrong).
To my credit, I redid the calculations for a rigid train and static forces over the acceleration event, and came up with a generally correct result. However, that calculation does not account for the force the engines were supplying at the beginning, nor does it account for the complete stop of the engines at some point. The negative acceleration event was quite dynamic. Robtard explained that the engines stopped because they stalled when Spiderman started to really apply some force.
Anyway, back on topic, we now have 5 instances of me admitting fault, in this thread alone. The idea that I never admit I'm wrong should be soundly debunked, right?
More on topic:
Ridley Prime: I appreciate the very respectful manner you have debated this with me. Your logic has been sound. Before this thread, I didn't really talk to you much. Now, I respect you as a poster. I look forward to future conversations and debates.
As far as the topic goes, Ridely Prime, how do you know that Vegeta didn't know about King Cold? Did he ever go "who the eff is that" or something similar? No.
However, he didn't recognize his Ki at all. He didn't even acknowledge it, really. Is it possible that Vegeta could tell that Frieza had gotten stronger due to his intimate knowledge of Frieza...thus explaining why Tien detected a "stronger ki's" than Frieza's? That would certainly bridge the gap between cyborg Frieza being much stronger than before while accounting for less Ki due to being mostly cyborg. The intimacy portion with Vegeta would explain why Vegeta said Frieza was stronger (cause he could "tell" somehow that his cyborg augmentations made him stronger whereas, Tien, only had training with detecting Ki.)
In the end, Frieza was referred to on multiple occasions as the strongest in the universe from multiple people. This cannot be ignored. Either Tien's comment was out of place (pis) or misunderstood (my explanation.)
@ dadudemon: Well, I suppose I won't argue about the validity of Tien's statement anymore, as it'll only keep dragging things out. Whether King Cold's stronger than Frieza or not though, he's still in the same league as his son in terms of Ki/power, so it would be hard to tell the difference between them anyhow. At least based on this.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c330/2.html
"There's Frieza and the other one like him!"
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v28/c330/10.html
"One of these monsters is hard enough to handle! Now there are two!"
Even Vegeta thought the situation there was hopeless based on what he said at the end, and not just because of Frieza apparently...
So I guess we can just leave it at that. 😬
And thank you for the complements & acknowledgement. ^^
Originally posted by psycho gundam
so yeah, to bring this back to the main plot of this thread, frieza transforms once just for security, then immediately kills cap'n ginyu. the rest are non-factors.
Originally posted by dadudemon1. Because we have never had any indication that he did and will not assume so? 🙂
As far as the topic goes, Ridely Prime, how do you know that Vegeta didn't know about King Cold? Did he ever go "who the eff is that" or something similar? No.However, he didn't recognize his Ki at all. He didn't even acknowledge it, really. Is it possible that Vegeta could tell that Frieza had gotten stronger due to his intimate knowledge of Frieza...thus explaining why Tien detected a "stronger ki's" than Frieza's? That would certainly bridge the gap between cyborg Frieza being much stronger than before while accounting for less Ki due to being mostly cyborg. The intimacy portion with Vegeta would explain why Vegeta said Frieza was stronger (cause he could "tell" somehow that his cyborg augmentations made him stronger whereas, Tien, only had training with detecting Ki.)
In the end, Frieza was referred to on multiple occasions as the strongest in the universe from multiple people. This cannot be ignored. Either Tien's comment was out of place (pis) or misunderstood (my explanation.)
2. Assumptions, the statement was not that complex and pretending it was is wishful thinking, also, his "intimate nature?" Just because he knew Freeza, by some magical empathetic link he could tell he is stronger? Do you even buy your own bullshit? None of this was even implied.
3. Multiple people who did not know Cold, or was Freeza himself, who, like any DBZ villain, is prone to gross overestimations of their own power. Tien's comment is the only non-biased comment regarding Freeza and King Cold's power while they are together for as comparison.
Originally posted by Ridley_Primei thought his transformation time was skewed due to filler, but i;ll take your word for it.
It actually takes time for Frieza to transform though, as we've seen (especially when it came to his final/true form). Captain Ginyu could probably use that time to try and change bodies while Frieza's still in the middle of morphing to his next form. Otherwise though, Frieza dominates.
meh, he kills the ginyu force first then.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Point fail. Toriyama was most certainly aware of it, though. You're painting Toriyama as being such a complete idiot that he can't even remember a character he created.And, again, that point doesn't matter at all. It has no place. Freeza was stated by himself and others as the strongest in the Universe. Pretending that King Kai isn't aware of such a large powerful being is rediculous. King Cold, plain and simple, is not as strong as Freeza.
Freeza was the most powerful in the Universe. This is not debatable. The most credible character to make that easement said it himself: King Kai. I did win. Every last person that wants to King Cold to be stronger than Freeza, is clearly wrong. There can't be any more evidence that can get any clearer than what I provided.
It actually astounds me that people are debating this after I posted what I did. You guys can't get any more incorrect. Both the Anime and the manga agree with me. The only thing any of you have is a small snippit from Tien that doesn't do anything by act as hyperbole that really means nothing.
Toriyama has said in many interviews that he wrote DBZ one chapter at a time and NEVER thought ahead about what would happen next. Which quite literally means, if a character had not appeared in the Manga yet, he was not created yet. Nobody claimed that Toriyama "forgot" King Cold. Because you quite simply cannot forget something that doesnt exist yet.
Lets face it, the facts put against COMPLETELY disprove all of your very very tame evidence. You have no proof besides concieted talk from Frieza and some crap King Kai said before King Cold was even created by Toriyama.
Show me one scan...Just one...where someone outright says that Frieza is stronger than his father. Lets see it.
We've already seen one where Tien outright states that Frieza is with someone who is even stronger than him. Which is quite obviously King Cold.
Also...show me one of Frieza's "abilities" that would make up for his "low ki". Not that it matter's because we all know Vegeta said himself, that Frieza was stronger than before. Do you think he was refering to some unknown technique? No, its not possible because the only thing Vegeta or any of the other Z Fighters can sense is KI. So if Vegeta says Frieza is even stronger without even seeing him, that means that his Ki is higher than before.
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Because we have never had any indication that he did and will not assume so? 🙂
Actually, we have indirect proof. Vegeta didn't act suprised. He didn't say anything about King Cold's presence. Don't you think he would have said "ZOMG! Another one I didn't know about!"
He didn't. 🙂
Originally posted by NemeBro
2. Assumptions, the statement was not that complex and pretending it was is wishful thinking, also, his "intimate nature?" Just because he knew Freeza, by some magical empathetic link he could tell he is stronger? Do you even buy your own bullshit? None of this was even implied.
Yes, it makes sense. How could Vegeta tell freeza was stronger when most of his body was machine? You do know the "ki" comes from life, don't you? I explained this to you once before. The only way Vegeta could have known that Frieza was stronger is if Frieza actually trained his organic form to be stronger than it was before, in addition to the upgrades.
Since that's retarded to assume that, we can just assume that Vegeta could "tell" somehow that Frieza was stronger, despite his actual Ki being lower.
Originally posted by NemeBro
3. Multiple people who did not know Cold, or was Freeza himself, who, like any DBZ villain, is prone to gross overestimations of their own power. Tien's comment is the only non-biased comment regarding Freeza and King Cold's power while they are together for as comparison.
This has been covered already, by me. I don't see why we are going over it again.
And, I've already explained how Tien's comment is still correct while Frieza is still stronger.
Again, one comment from Tien that is easily explained by Frieza being mostly machine versus multiple comments from multiple characters, one of them the friggin Kai. Seems like a no-brainer, to me. Obviously, Frieza is stronger.
Originally posted by Micheal_Myers
Also...show me one of Frieza's "abilities" that would make up for his "low ki". Not that it matter's because we all know Vegeta said himself, that Frieza was stronger than before. Do you think he was refering to some unknown technique? No, its not possible because the only thing Vegeta or any of the other Z Fighters can sense is KI. So if Vegeta says Frieza is even stronger without even seeing him, that means that his Ki is higher than before.
You would have to prove that. You can't.
I've provided reasoning on why Frieza could be viewed as stronger.
Also, you're forgetting about telepathy. He could just tell that Frieza was stronger, despite his Ki being lower.
Originally posted by dadudemon
You would have to prove that. You can't.I've provided reasoning on why Frieza could be viewed as stronger.
Also, you're forgetting about telepathy. He could just tell that Frieza was stronger, despite his Ki being lower.
WAIT WAIT WAIT! Vegeta is a psychic now? This is news to me...
I want proof of one time where Vegeta knew of a characters abilities before seeing them or hearing about them. Because I sure as hell dont remember Vegeta being psychic....Are you sure you we watched the same Dragonball Z? I was pretty sure there was only one...But you have me thinking otherwise now..
Originally posted by dadudemon1. No, that is because by the time we saw him he had already sensed them approaching, when we see him he is waiting for them. Tien actually commented on King Cold being stronger, directly. 🙂 If you don't read the series, do not argue it.
Actually, we have indirect proof. Vegeta didn't act suprised. He didn't say anything about King Cold's presence. Don't you think he would have said "ZOMG! Another one I didn't know about!"He didn't. 🙂
Yes, it makes sense. How could Vegeta tell freeza was stronger when most of his body was machine? You do know the "ki" comes from life, don't you? I explained this to you once before. The only way Vegeta could have known that Frieza was stronger is if Frieza actually trained his organic form to be stronger than it was before, in addition to the upgrades.
Since that's retarded to assume that, we can just assume that Vegeta could "tell" somehow that Frieza was stronger, despite his actual Ki being lower.
This has been covered already, by me. I don't see why we are going over it again.
And, I've already explained how Tien's comment is still correct while Frieza is still stronger.
Again, one comment from Tien that is easily explained by Frieza being mostly machine versus multiple comments from multiple characters, one of them the friggin Kai. Seems like a no-brainer, to me. Obviously, Frieza is stronger.
2. You explained it even though you were wrong? 16 is completely inorganic, and he has Ki, EVERY Android has Ki, they only possess a special kind of Ki that is untraceable. Something Freeza's Ki, or even part of it, was never proven to be. Your entire argument is based upon sloppy conjecture, that Freeza is the same as the Androids.
Your empathetic link with Freeza theory is retarded, it was never so much as implied, occam's razor asserts that the decision that makes the least assumptions if usually the correct one, you are assuming Freeza was like the androids, you are assuming Vegeta has a telepathic link with him (Lol), you are assuming Tien was lying/wrong, you are wrong.
3. I accept your concession on this point.
Only your shitty explanation is based on a theory and not actual proof from the manga. 🙂
Kai never said Freeza was the strongest in the universe, get over yourself.