Originally posted by Galan007
OMACs have a catalog, and subsequently, defenses against every hero on earth. nevertheless, jason still transmuted a few of them. meh, whatevs..m'kay.
Now let me ask YOU a question...
Hypothetically, if say Hal and Jason were to have a battle, do you think it would end with Jason simply turning Hal into salt, mud, water, etc?
Originally posted by Zeuodinwog's a brawler, not a speedster.
But Wog would be moving so fast
Originally posted by batdude123no. though i do think it could be a decent battle [with transmutation certainly being an option.]
Now let me ask YOU a question...Hypothetically, if say Hal and Jason were to have a battle, do you think it would end with Jason simply turning Hal into salt, mud, water, etc?
but kilowog is NO hal.
Originally posted by Galan007
wog's a brawler, not a speedster.no. though i do think it could be a decent battle.
but kilowog is NO hal.
I see.
So while he wouldn't be able to do that to Hal, he could easily do it to one of the most experienced Lanterns that trained and mentored Hal, in the first few seconds? baka
Nah....
Originally posted by batdude123you're looking at jason's abilities too narrowly. meaning: there's also the option of him transmuting kilowog's energies into something inert [done it to several other characters before] - then going on to transmute kilowog himself.
I see.So while he wouldn't be able to do that to Hal, he could easily do it to one of the most experienced Lanterns that trained and mentored Hal in the first few seconds? baka
Nah....
...or he can utilize the same attack he one-shotted an amped kalibak with..
Originally posted by batdude123that's a faulty comparison.
... and if the shield's energy easily withstands being inside a black hole, manipulating it, once again, is highly unlikely.
i'm not talking about jason blasting kilowog with enough juice to break his 'black hole-tanking' shields... i'm talking about the shields being transmuted into a completely different energy type all together.
Originally posted by Galan007
that's a faulty comparison.i'm not talking about jason blasting kilowog with enough juice to break his 'black hole-tanking' shields... i'm talking about the shields being transmuted into a completely different energy type all together.
Not really.
Him manipulating Kilowog's energy would consist of breaking it down and/or altering it to another substance. If a black hole can't manipulate and/or affect GL energy (and black holes do manipulate energy which is evidenced by gravitational lensing) in any way, then it's pretty ridiculous to say that Jason would turn Wog's shield into butter (or whatever) with a flick of the wrist.
Also, your argument seems to be double standard-ish. If FS could manipulate Wog's auto shield, then why couldn't he do that to Hal as well? Considering we're talking about the energy shields themselves...
It doesn't fit.
Originally posted by batdude123jason's powers don't work by breaking down molecules, then rebuilding them. instead, he changes them from one thing to another [ie. transmutation.]
Not really.Him manipulating Kilowog's energy would consist of breaking it down and/or altering it to another substance. If a black hole can't manipulate and/or affect GL energy (and black holes do manipulate energy which is evidenced by gravitational lensing) in any way, then it's pretty ridiculous to say that Jason would turn Wog's shield into butter (or whatever) with a flick of the wrist.
Also, your argument seems to be double standard-ish. If FS could manipulate Wog's auto shield, then why couldn't he do that to Hal as well? Considering we're talking about the energy shields themselves...
that said, a black hole being unable to affect a lantern's shield simply means the shield in question can endure the highest levels of gravitational pull, without it's molecules being torn apart. however, that is not to say those same shield-molecules are in some way immune to a direct transmutational attack from jason.
and i never said transmutation wouldn't be an option for jason if he were to battle hal.
Originally posted by batdude123
Not really.Him manipulating Kilowog's energy would consist of breaking it down and/or altering it to another substance. If a black hole can't manipulate and/or affect GL energy (and black holes do manipulate energy which is evidenced by gravitational lensing) in any way, then it's pretty ridiculous to say that Jason would turn Wog's shield into butter (or whatever) with a flick of the wrist.
Also, your argument seems to be double standard-ish. If FS could manipulate Wog's auto shield, then why couldn't he do that to Hal as well? Considering we're talking about the energy shields themselves...
It doesn't fit.
Originally posted by Galan007
jason's powers don't work by breaking down molecules, then rebuilding them. instead, he changes them from one thing to another [ie. transmutation.]that said, a black hole being unable to affect a lantern's shield simply means the shield in question can endure the highest levels of gravitational pull, without it's molecules being torn apart. however, that is not to say those same shield-molecules are in some way immune to a direct transmutational attack from jason.
and i never said transmutation wouldn't be an option for jason if he were to battle hal.
Transmuting a substance into another object would involve movement and/or some kind of alteration of molecules or atomic structure. He is a being of science, after all.
Simply saying that he "changes" x object to y object with nothing taking place in the process is ridiculous.
Being in a black hole without any kind of alteration has everything to do with what we're talking about. In any case, the shields themselves have no molecules, considering it's energy. If the energy can still hold strong around their bodies inside a singularity that manipulates all energy (EM radiation) like nothing, then it's a pretty good indication of FS not being able to do anything to it. After all, GL energy isn't simply any energy that's naturally found in the universe, but rather, manifestations of their will power.
And for the record, IIRC, Kyle created a construct that Firestorm was not able to manipulate a few years ago.
Yeah, I saw your edit. However, I asked you if you thought Firestorm could turn Hal into salt, and you said no.
Originally posted by batdude123firestorm has transmuted the energy of several characters in the past.
In any case, the shields themselves have no molecules, considering it's energy.If the energy can still hold strong around their bodies inside a singularity that manipulates all energy (EM radiation) like nothing, then it's a pretty good indication of FS not being able to do anything to it. After all, GL energy isn't simply any energy that's naturally found in the universe, but rather, manifestations of their will power.
And for the record, IIRC, Kyle created a construct that Firestorm was not able to manipulate a few years ago.
Yeah, I saw your edit. However, I asked you if you thought Firestorm could turn Hal into salt, and you said no.
you keep clinging to instances regarding black holes as though they in some way hint at GL immunity to transmutational attacks. they don't. we are talking about completely different 'applications' of power here - one essentially breaks down energy via gravity, the other changes energy from one thing to another *poof*. as far as i can tell, two different levels of resistence would be needed for each.
i don't recall the kyle incident [you know the issue # by any chance?] at any rate, kyle > wog.
correct.
Originally posted by Galan007
firestorm has transmuted the energy of several characters in the past.you keep clinging to instances regarding black holes as though they in some way hint at GL immunity to transmutational attacks. they don't. we are talking about completely different 'applications' of power here - one essentially breaks down energy via gravity, the other changes energy from one thing to another *poof*. as far as i can tell, two different levels of resistence would be needed for each.
i don't recall the kyle incident [you know the issue # by any chance?] at any rate, kyle > wog.
correct.
Except the ring acts as a pseudo-sentient mini guardian of sorts. It isn't considered the universe's most powerful weapon for no reason. The ring has tons of built-in protection features. Auto-shields, telepathy shielding, etc.
And like I said before, GL energy is different from others, because it's manifested will power.
Yes, the two differ in application, but you still aren't getting the point. Firestorm doesn't just *poof* objects into another substance. His whole shtick is that his powers are scientifically-based. He isn't magical.
And as for why being inside a black hole is significant, the explanation is already there. I don't feel like going in circles. 😬
Your reason for why Firestorm would be able to "turn (Wog) into salt" in no way explains why he wouldn't be able to do the same to Hal.
Double standard.
Originally posted by batdude123manifested will power or not, it's still energy. unless i see a scan which states GLs [wog specifically] have some type of immunity to transmutational attacks, i cannot buy into the notion that their energy type is any less transmutable than another type.
The ring has tons of built-in protection features. Auto-shields, telepathy shielding, etc.And like I said before, GL energy is different from others, because it's manifested will power.
Yes, the two differ in application, but you still aren't getting the point. Firestorm doesn't just *poof* objects into another substance. His whole shtick is that his powers are scientifically-based. He isn't magical.
And as for why being inside a black hole is significant, the explanation is already there. I don't feel like going in circles. 😬
Your reason for why Firestorm would be able to "turn (Wog) into salt" in no way explains why he wouldn't be able to do the same to Hal.
Double standard.
scientifically based in the sense that jason has to know the right 'mixtures' in order for something to turn out how he wants it to? sure. however, he's transformed energy in the midst of it being 'fired' in the past - hence my "*poof*" emotion.
my explanation is also there... i don't want to talk in circles either.
again, i stated that transmutation would still be an option in that battle, i just don't think it would be as likely/easily done. hal > wog. that isn't a double standard by any stretch.
