Star Wars vs Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Battlestar Galactica

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
WTF? You haven't even come close to winning this debate. Answer this:

I've tried to rebuttal your rebuttal to my argument that the Aclamator is millions (now, I realize, BILLIONS) of times more powerful than the Enterprise, and you have ignored my rebuttal.

And at your so called "argument" involving "omg Star Trek has phased weapons!!!" I've already responded to that. Now respond to the above.

Responded by PM and blatently shown that you're lying. You've copied figures i've already proven to be false. If you'd bothered to actually read the thread I posted to at the beginning of this debate and weren't so ****ing lazy then you wouldn't be making a fool of yourself now.

So no...An acclamator isn't "billions" of times more powerful. It isn't even slightly more powerful. It's a war ship that comes of worse than a science vessel that is much smaller and actually has less weapons that it.

Why...Because the enterprise has a far greater range, can fire at FTL speeds, has a far more ingenuitive crew and has defeated enemies far more powerful than itself.

What was your response to the phased weapons point again?...Oh that's right..."the shields would stop them"...Completely ignoring the fact that they are designed specifically to bypass shield altogether. Yet somehow you think that SW shields would miraculously stop them despite SW never having encountered phasic weapons before.

Nice argument.

You lose...

Again.

Originally posted by jaden101
Responded by PM and blatently shown that you're lying. You've copied figures i've already proven to be false. If you'd bothered to actually read the thread I posted to at the beginning of this debate and weren't so ****ing lazy then you wouldn't be making a fool of yourself now.

You do notice that you aren't exactly being nice, do you? If you were to go over our threads, you'll notice that I was very nice until you suddenly started blasting/bashing me. Then, for a while you suddenly became nice again, in which case I became VERY nice to you. Now you're failing to actually respond to my arguments, and yet feel as if you somehow have the strange right to bash me.

Originally posted by jaden101

So no...An acclamator isn't "billions" of times more powerful. It isn't even slightly more powerful. It's a war ship that comes of worse than a science vessel that is much smaller and actually has less weapons that it.

Read the stats. Its shielding is billions of times that of the Enterprise. It has enough firepower to one shot the Enterprise as well. And "actually has less weapons"? Where did you get that?

You still haven't answered my question: is an outdated assault ship from Star TREK billions of times more durable than the Enterprise?

Originally posted by jaden101

Why...Because the enterprise has a far greater range, can fire at FTL speeds, has a far more ingenuitive crew and has defeated enemies far more powerful than itself.

😆 😂

Do you realize that you're losing and don't want to actually admit that you're wrong, so you try and hide the fact by bashing me, or do you actually fail to realize it?

"has a far greater range" - prove it

"can fire at FTL speeds" - what do you mean? Fire weapons that move at FTL, or fire while moving at FTL? Either way, prove it, and tell me how it matters since the Enterprise would have to fire trillions of shots to bring down an Aclamator

"far more ingenuitive crew" - that depends on who's manning the Aclamator

"defeated enemies far more powerful than itself" - true, but not nearly as powerful as an Aclamator; in most of the battles that the Enterprise is in the Enterprise is at least able to damage the enemy ship, but in this case it would take trillions of shots to put a dent in an Aclamator...and those ships in which the Enterprise encounters that outmatches it are generally top of the line ships, whereas the Aclamator is OUTDATED

And besides, you still haven't explained how ST counters Star Forge -> Mini Star Forges -> Fleets of Galaxy Guns -> Bye bye ST

Originally posted by jaden101

What was your response to the phased weapons point again?...Oh that's right..."the shields would stop them"...Completely ignoring the fact that they are designed specifically to bypass shield altogether. Yet somehow you think that SW shields would miraculously stop them despite SW never having encountered phasic weapons before.

Nice argument.

You lose...

Again.

wtf? When did I ever say that? I asked for more info about these phased weapons, and you sent me a bunch of links (most from non canon encyclopedias, but that's ok, as they are generally true), but only one of them actually describes a weapon that can phase through space-time...and only 20 were ever built

You do notice that you aren't exactly being nice, do you? If you were to go over our threads, you'll notice that I was very nice until you suddenly started blasting/bashing me. Then, for a while you suddenly became nice again, in which case I became VERY nice to you. Now you're failing to actually respond to my arguments, and yet feel as if you somehow have the strange right to bash me.

You bring it on yourself through frustrating idiocy. I have little tolerance for people who ignore or don't understand basic concepts. If you'd bother to actually read and understand the technology i'm showing that ST has is far more advanced than anything ever even contemplated on SW then we can have a more civil discussion. But seeing as you either completely ignore those facts or simply don't understand them then i'll continue to beat them into you through insults and humiliation.

Read the stats. Its shielding is billions of times that of the Enterprise. It has enough firepower to one shot the Enterprise as well. And "actually has less weapons"? Where did you get that? You still haven't answered my question: is an outdated assault ship from Star TREK billions of times more durable than the Enterprise?

This is the perfect example of your inability to understand basic English. The ENTERPRISE has less weapons...Yet it still beats a SD through superior range, maneuverability, tactics, FTL weapon firing and a vastly superior crew. What would it take? Transport a few photon torpedos (who's power can be some 24 times that of the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated on earth) and an SD is gone. It can do this from vastly further distances than an SD can fire. The proof is in the films. Look at the battle of Corascant. The republic and enemy ships are practically on top of each other as they fire volleys, side on at low speed and no attempt to avoid fire (because they're slow and not very agile). It's actually a homage to olden day sail ship wars but that's what's shown on screen.

Not to mention that i've already countered your stats with 1st hand canon from ST that shows quite clearly that your stats are lies.

So the answe to your question is "No" An acclamator isn't billions of times more powerful than the enterprise. It's power output is measured in total as millions of gigawatts. The enterprise puts out hundreds of gigawatts PER SECOND. Even small hand phasers put out hundreds o megawatts of power so an acclamator isn't even billions of times more powerful than a hand held phaser.

"has a far greater range" - prove it

Again a perfect example of why you're so frustrating to debate with. You know fine well i've already posted a picture made using 1st hand canon from movies regarding the range of THE OLD enterprise from the original series and a new SD. So asking me to "prove it" is simply asking me to repeat myself because you were either too ****ing thick to understand it the 1st time I posted it or were too ignorant to be bothered reading it in the 1st place. Ignoring facts doesn't mean they aren't facts.

"can fire at FTL speeds" - what do you mean? Fire weapons that move at FTL, or fire while moving at FTL? Either way, prove it, and tell me how it matters since the Enterprise would have to fire trillions of shots to bring down an Aclamator

Again an example of your idiocy yet you get upset when I call out that idiocy. I'm not going repeat myself for the hundreth time in even more basic English just because i'm arguing with someone who lacks the capacity to understand.

And besides, you still haven't explained how ST counters Star Forge -> Mini Star Forges -> Fleets of Galaxy Guns -> Bye bye ST

I was the one who mentioned the stupidity of where that debate would be going and mentioned the "mini star forges" as a joke to which you agreed was a stupid idea. I countered it with the equally stupid idea that every planet in star trek could be cloaked (because some had that ability and so the tech could be applied across all races). You even admitted that the star forge was destroyed before the galaxy gun was invented and so couldn't be applied that way anyway. Thus you were the one who put paid to that idiotic way of debating.

You can't have it both ways. Either all tech from all eras can be mixed and matched, as above. Or they can exist and fight independantly.

wtf? When did I ever say that? I asked for more info about these phased weapons, and you sent me a bunch of links (most from non canon encyclopedias, but that's ok, as they are generally true), but only one of them actually describes a weapon that can phase through space-time...and only 20 were ever built

At least i've provided links. You haven't provided any that wasn't SD.net.

So you're reverting back to the "only 20 were ever built" type of argument...Well in that case ONLY ONE GALAXY GUN WAS EVER BUILT...ONLY ONE STAR FORGE WAS EVER BUILT.

Here we go again. Another example of your complete idiocy. You can't have a million galaxy guns for SW (when a million didn't exist) but then restrict ST to the numbers shown on screen.

And you still haven't countered my points.

You even tried to bring in the ground war aspect to the debate. Do you have any knowledge of the ST EU ground wars and the weapons capability it contains?...Or do you just make your claims that ST has nothing to put into the fight from your ridiculously limited knowlege of ST from the handul of episodes you've watched.

The irony of this "debate" is that not only do I know infinitely more about ST than you do. I even know more about SW than you do because i've had to correct you on several occassions already. You seem to have tried to get all your information from 2 web pages. The comparison of the enterprise D to SW warship and the wookipedia page of SW superweapons.

Whereas i've actually gotten my information DIRECTLY from the films and TV shows. Yet you accuse me of using non canon information...

Very odd.

You lose

Again.

I enjoy both Star Trek and Star Wars. I have just taken about 3 hours to read through a majority of all the posts and links that everyone has made. I must say, it is all quite impressive. I do have a few things to say for and against both Star Wars and Star Trek. I have a good deal of knowledge about phased weapons because I have taken college level physics classes. First off, phased weapons would be extremely inaccurate, because in order to go through the space/time reality of the shields they would create a "wrinkle" in time/space and could end up just about anywhere in the universe and possibly create a wormhole in the process. Although they would have had many more years to toy with phased weapons and may have found a way around that problem. If so, then by simply having the ability to use phased weapons would just about dominate Star Wars no matter what ships or planets either side had. There are 3 things Star Wars has going for it. Sith/Jedi (although if near omnipotent are restricted then this means nothing) because of Nihilus's ability to destroy an entire planet with mere words.
Also, the Lightsaber. Many people would say that this is an energy based weapon but it is not. While it uses energy to activate, it is crystalline based. Which means that Star Trek shields could not block a crystalline based weapon.
And finally, the Mass Shadow Generator. Which has the ability to crush the gravity field of a planet and anything surrounding it. But, Star Trek's ships would have to be relatively near to have any real effect, so I'm not sure it helps much.
My conclusion: if phased weapons actually worked than Star Trek has this, if not then it will still be one bloody battle and would have to be tested to see who would come out on top. I hate to admit it but I think Star Wars might be in a lot of trouble.

Originally posted by Jamefril
I enjoy both Star Trek and Star Wars. I have just taken about 3 hours to read through a majority of all the posts and links that everyone has made. I must say, it is all quite impressive. I do have a few things to say for and against both Star Wars and Star Trek. I have a good deal of knowledge about phased weapons because I have taken college level physics classes. First off, phased weapons would be extremely inaccurate, because in order to go through the space/time reality of the shields they would create a "wrinkle" in time/space and could end up just about anywhere in the universe and possibly create a wormhole in the process. Although they would have had many more years to toy with phased weapons and may have found a way around that problem. If so, then by simply having the ability to use phased weapons would just about dominate Star Wars no matter what ships or planets either side had. There are 3 things Star Wars has going for it. Sith/Jedi (although if near omnipotent are restricted then this means nothing) because of Nihilus's ability to destroy an entire planet with mere words.
Also, the Lightsaber. Many people would say that this is an energy based weapon but it is not. While it uses energy to activate, it is crystalline based. Which means that Star Trek shields could not block a crystalline based weapon.
And finally, the Mass Shadow Generator. Which has the ability to crush the gravity field of a planet and anything surrounding it. But, Star Trek's ships would have to be relatively near to have any real effect, so I'm not sure it helps much.
My conclusion: if phased weapons actually worked than Star Trek has this, if not then it will still be one bloody battle and would have to be tested to see who would come out on top. I hate to admit it but I think Star Wars might be in a lot of trouble.

Nice post. Thanks for the input. I do think any criticism based on real life physics is a bit irrelevant though. Take the transporters for example. They would be completely impossible due to Heisenberg uncertainty principle. They get around this on ST by mentioning the fictional "Heisenberg compensators" and when the writers of the show were asked how they work they answered "They work very well, thank you" 😆

As for ST shields being unable to withstand Crystalline weapons.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Crystalline_Entity

The Enterprise D's encounter with the crystalline entity may beg to differ.

Originally posted by jaden101

As for ST shields being unable to withstand Crystalline weapons.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Crystalline_Entity

The Enterprise D's encounter with the crystalline entity may beg to differ.

That would indeed make lightsabers seem rather useless. (or any technology concerning crystals)
Well I have to say not allowing near omnipotents and having shielding against crystal based weapons robs Star Wars of its two greatest advantages. This discussion isn't over because I will find something to help Star Wars (though I'm not sure it will be enough to bring victory).
For the moment being I say Star Trek has the definate upper hand.
But I'm going to keep looking for something to help Star Wars. I'm not trying to show favoritism to Star Wars but I would hate to see Star Wars go down without a fight!

Originally posted by Jamefril
I enjoy both Star Trek and Star Wars. I have just taken about 3 hours to read through a majority of all the posts and links that everyone has made. I must say, it is all quite impressive. I do have a few things to say for and against both Star Wars and Star Trek. I have a good deal of knowledge about phased weapons because I have taken college level physics classes. First off, phased weapons would be extremely inaccurate, because in order to go through the space/time reality of the shields they would create a "wrinkle" in time/space and could end up just about anywhere in the universe and possibly create a wormhole in the process. Although they would have had many more years to toy with phased weapons and may have found a way around that problem. If so, then by simply having the ability to use phased weapons would just about dominate Star Wars no matter what ships or planets either side had. There are 3 things Star Wars has going for it. Sith/Jedi (although if near omnipotent are restricted then this means nothing) because of Nihilus's ability to destroy an entire planet with mere words.
Also, the Lightsaber. Many people would say that this is an energy based weapon but it is not. While it uses energy to activate, it is crystalline based. Which means that Star Trek shields could not block a crystalline based weapon.
And finally, the Mass Shadow Generator. Which has the ability to crush the gravity field of a planet and anything surrounding it. But, Star Trek's ships would have to be relatively near to have any real effect, so I'm not sure it helps much.
My conclusion: if phased weapons actually worked than Star Trek has this, if not then it will still be one bloody battle and would have to be tested to see who would come out on top. I hate to admit it but I think Star Wars might be in a lot of trouble.

Lightsabres would still be energy weapons, as energy is passed through the crystal; this is what powers it. They also cut with extreme heat; I'm pretty sure shields have a very high level of heat resistance.

All in all, it's a moot point, as it's unlikely for a Jedi/Sith to attack a space-born ship.

Originally posted by jaden101
You bring it on yourself through frustrating idiocy. I have little tolerance for people who ignore or don't understand basic concepts. If you'd bother to actually read and understand the technology i'm showing that ST has is far more advanced than anything ever even contemplated on SW then we can have a more civil discussion. But seeing as you either completely ignore those facts or simply don't understand them then i'll continue to beat them into you through insults and humiliation.

"ST has is far more advanced han anything ever even contemplated on SW then we can have a more civil discussion." First of all, that's just pure fanboyism. It's OK to believe that ST tech is superior (it's not, but it's reasonable to think otherwise), but to claim that their tech is beyond what SW has ever conceived is just ignorance. Also, this quote is basically saying "we can only have a more civil discussion if you admit that SW loses"...well then in that case what will we discuss? Football? Stop trying to act like as if you're winning: you're not.

Originally posted by jaden101

This is the perfect example of your inability to understand basic English. The ENTERPRISE has less weapons...Yet it still beats a SD through superior range, maneuverability, tactics, FTL weapon firing and a vastly superior crew. What would it take? Transport a few photon torpedos (who's power can be some 24 times that of the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated on earth) and an SD is gone. It can do this from vastly further distances than an SD can fire. The proof is in the films. Look at the battle of Corascant. The republic and enemy ships are practically on top of each other as they fire volleys, side on at low speed and no attempt to avoid fire (because they're slow and not very agile). It's actually a homage to olden day sail ship wars but that's what's shown on screen.

superior range - I'll discuss below
maneuverability - yeah, but a SD has a huge complement of fighters, each of which is far more maneuverable than the Enterprise
tactics - how is this determined by the ship?
superior crew - that depends on who's manning the SD, but generally yeah, but that's because the main characters are on that ship (and they're really good)...the Falcon would have vastly superior crew to a Borg Cube, but that's because major characters are on it (and these characters are really good)

And a SD shield could easily stop a weapon 24 times that of a nuke, considering the fact that it can withstand repeated blasts from turbolasers with MILLIONS OF GIGAWATTS of power, which eclipses that of the electricity used by the US in an entire year BY FAR (ie billions of times)

Originally posted by jaden101

Not to mention that i've already countered your stats with 1st hand canon from ST that shows quite clearly that your stats are lies.

wtf? Where? When?

Originally posted by jaden101

So the answe to your question is "No" An acclamator isn't billions of times more powerful than the enterprise. It's power output is measured in total as millions of gigawatts. The enterprise puts out hundreds of gigawatts PER SECOND. Even small hand phasers put out hundreds o megawatts of power so an acclamator isn't even billions of times more powerful than a hand held phaser.

Its reactor power is 200 trillion gw, EACH shot from a turbolaser is hundreds millions, and they have a pretty high rate of fire AND there are a TON of them surrounding the ship. So you have an armada of turbolasers firing at a very fast (although I'm not sure exactly how fast) rate of hundreds millions of gw vs a few hundreds per second...yeah, SW has the advantage here.

And also: how come you at first didn't deny that the Aclamator was billions of times more powerful, and instead was like "well that's because it's a science vessel!" but now all of the sudden change you mind? Because you realize that your first point was bound to fail so you have to make up a new one?

Originally posted by jaden101

Again a perfect example of why you're so frustrating to debate with. You know fine well i've already posted a picture made using 1st hand canon from movies regarding the range of THE OLD enterprise from the original series and a new SD. So asking me to "prove it" is simply asking me to repeat myself because you were either too ****ing thick to understand it the 1st time I posted it or were too ignorant to be bothered reading it in the 1st place. Ignoring facts doesn't mean they aren't facts.

You show'd me a picture...hurray? If I show you a picture that shows the Q being killed by a stormtrooper, does that mean that it's valid? Show me PROOF, not a picture that shows nothing other than the CONCLUSION but not the EVIDENCE. See how stupid this is? You show me a picture...and say that it's stupid for me not to get it. Hypocrite.

CONTINUED FROM MY ABOVE REBUTTAL...

Originally posted by jaden101

I was the one who mentioned the stupidity of where that debate would be going and mentioned the "mini star forges" as a joke to which you agreed was a stupid idea. I countered it with the equally stupid idea that every planet in star trek could be cloaked (because some had that ability and so the tech could be applied across all races). You even admitted that the star forge was destroyed before the galaxy gun was invented and so couldn't be applied that way anyway. Thus you were the one who put paid to that idiotic way of debating.

You can't have it both ways. Either all tech from all eras can be mixed and matched, as above. Or they can exist and fight independantly.

BOTH of us are using techs and ships from all eras, so yeah we should allow them. It's also specified in the OP and throughout this thread. What's wrong with "mini star forges"? Now I'm make it nice and simple for you:

1. Since this is all of SW front to back that's shown(and vice versa for ST), the Star Forge is allowed.
2. This means that the Rakatan are also allowed.
3. Since they invented the SF, it would be logical to assume that they'd know how to make it.
4. They can therefore use the abundance of resources that the SF provides to make more SFs.
5. They then use these SFs to make Galaxy Guns (which the Empire knows how to make, since they made it).
6. They then go boom, and ST goes bye bye.

Originally posted by jaden101

At least i've provided links. You haven't provided any that wasn't SD.net.

So you're reverting back to the "only 20 were ever built" type of argument...Well in that case ONLY ONE GALAXY GUN WAS EVER BUILT...ONLY ONE STAR FORGE WAS EVER BUILT.

So? One good link + logic >>>>>>>>> a bunch of decent links + "omg I showed you a picture that didn't actually provide any evidence for its claim (or at least not in the picture itself, which is all you showed me) and I'll bash you for not conceding because I showed you a picture!!!" logic

But they KNOW how to build the SF. Let me ask you: how expensive were the phased weapons? Did they know how to build them (or did some faction from the future give them it)? What disadvantages did they have? How accurate were they?

Originally posted by jaden101

You even tried to bring in the ground war aspect to the debate. Do you have any knowledge of the ST EU ground wars and the weapons capability it contains?...Or do you just make your claims that ST has nothing to put into the fight from your ridiculously limited knowlege of ST from the handul of episodes you've watched.

The irony of this "debate" is that not only do I know infinitely more about ST than you do. I even know more about SW than you do because i've had to correct you on several occassions already. You seem to have tried to get all your information from 2 web pages. The comparison of the enterprise D to SW warship and the wookipedia page of SW superweapons.

READ. I have taken into account ground battles, AND YOU ACTUALLY RESPONDED TO SOME OF THEM! Do you have memory problems? Let me repeat to you some of my points:

ST lacks tanks
ST lacks artillery
ST lacks machine guns
ST lacks infantry armor
ST phasers get reguarly stopped by envirnmental cover such as crates

So?
And no, when have you ever corrected me on a major mistake I made about SW?

Originally posted by Jamefril
I enjoy both Star Trek and Star Wars. I have just taken about 3 hours to read through a majority of all the posts and links that everyone has made. I must say, it is all quite impressive. I do have a few things to say for and against both Star Wars and Star Trek. I have a good deal of knowledge about phased weapons because I have taken college level physics classes. First off, phased weapons would be extremely inaccurate, because in order to go through the space/time reality of the shields they would create a "wrinkle" in time/space and could end up just about anywhere in the universe and possibly create a wormhole in the process. Although they would have had many more years to toy with phased weapons and may have found a way around that problem. If so, then by simply having the ability to use phased weapons would just about dominate Star Wars no matter what ships or planets either side had. There are 3 things Star Wars has going for it. Sith/Jedi (although if near omnipotent are restricted then this means nothing) because of Nihilus's ability to destroy an entire planet with mere words.
Also, the Lightsaber. Many people would say that this is an energy based weapon but it is not. While it uses energy to activate, it is crystalline based. Which means that Star Trek shields could not block a crystalline based weapon.
And finally, the Mass Shadow Generator. Which has the ability to crush the gravity field of a planet and anything surrounding it. But, Star Trek's ships would have to be relatively near to have any real effect, so I'm not sure it helps much.
My conclusion: if phased weapons actually worked than Star Trek has this, if not then it will still be one bloody battle and would have to be tested to see who would come out on top. I hate to admit it but I think Star Wars might be in a lot of trouble.

Nice points, but...

Jedi/Sith are allowed, since they aren't omnipotent/near omnipotent...not even close to it.

edit: oops, I got your PM, so yeah the part where I said "wtf? where? when?" please disregard

BOTH of us are using techs and ships from all eras, so yeah we should allow them. It's also specified in the OP and throughout this thread. What's wrong with "mini star forges"? Now I'm make it nice and simple for you: 1. Since this is all of SW front to back that's shown(and vice versa for ST), the Star Forge is allowed. 2. This means that the Rakatan are also allowed. 3. Since they invented the SF, it would be logical to assume that they'd know how to make it. 4. They can therefore use the abundance of resources that the SF provides to make more SFs. 5. They then use these SFs to make Galaxy Guns (which the Empire knows how to make, since they made it). 6. They then go boom, and ST goes bye bye.

And ST, in the form of species 8472, has an entire universe called fluidic space with which to draw numbers. You do realise that's considerably more numbers (and proven power) than 1 galaxy.

And i've already countered your galaxy gun idiotic point. If you get them ST gets cloaks on all planets making the galaxy guns useless anyway.

But they KNOW how to build the SF. Let me ask you: how expensive were the phased weapons? Did they know how to build them (or did some faction from the future give them it)? What disadvantages did they have? How accurate were they?

There is no currency is almost all species in ST so effectively they cost nothing. You're also completely missing the point. SW doesn't have infinite resources. It can't simply churn out infinite numbers of galaxy guns. Yet you're arguing that SW can and ST can't on silly principles like cost.

As for drawbacks of phased weapons. I can't recall them ever missing a target although, apparently, they occassionally don't detonate (as do most explosive weapons occassionally)

You're also being hypocritical again. It doesn't matter if 1 species or alliance didn't know how to build them. If you're going to argue that the Rakatan empire can share their technology with the rest of the universe then you can't deny that same principle to the ST side of the debate and be expected to be taken seriously can you?

READ. I have taken into account ground battles, AND YOU ACTUALLY RESPONDED TO SOME OF THEM! Do you have memory problems? Let me repeat to you some of my points: ST lacks tanks ST lacks artillery ST lacks machine guns ST lacks infantry armor ST phasers get reguarly stopped by envirnmental cover such as crates

Once again you miss my point by a royal mile. I never said you didn't mention them. I said you're ignorant of ST EU because within it they have huge numbers of ground weapons/artillery etc. So your statement of "ST lacks tank" etc is completely invalid. Simply because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

"ST has is far more advanced han anything ever even contemplated on SW then we can have a more civil discussion." First of all, that's just pure fanboyism. It's OK to believe that ST tech is superior (it's not, but it's reasonable to think otherwise), but to claim that their tech is beyond what SW has ever conceived is just ignorance. Also, this quote is basically saying "we can only have a more civil discussion if you admit that SW loses"...well then in that case what will we discuss? Football? Stop trying to act like as if you're winning: you're not.

How many times do I have to tell you. I'll put it in big simply letters for you this time.

IT CAN'T BE FANBOYISM BECAUSE I ACTUALLY PREFER STAR WARS.

Lets look at the facts.

Does SW tech have the ability to time travel?....No

Does SW tech incorporate weapons that exist out of normal space?....No

Does SW have transporter tech?....No

Does SW have advanced replicator tech?....No

Does SW have weapons that can destroy areas thousands of times the size of a solar system?....No

Has any SW species shown the ability to build something even close to that of the Dyson's sphere shown in "Relics"?....No

Is there any mention o advanced nano technology in SW?....No

Does SW have the advanced medical technology that ST has?...No

Does SW have ablative armour?...No

maneuverability - yeah, but a SD has a huge complement of fighters, each of which is far more maneuverable than the Enterprise tactics - how is this determined by the ship? superior crew - that depends on who's manning the SD, but generally yeah, but that's because the main characters are on that ship (and they're really good)...the Falcon would have vastly superior crew to a Borg Cube, but that's because major characters are on it (and these characters are really good) And a SD shield could easily stop a weapon 24 times that of a nuke, considering the fact that it can withstand repeated blasts from turbolasers with MILLIONS OF GIGAWATTS of power, which eclipses that of the electricity used by the US in an entire year BY FAR (ie billions of times)

The fighters are basically irrelevant seeing as they have nowhere near the power to even drain ST shields by 1%.

I would also disagree about the Falcon's crew being "better" in a tactics sense than a Borg cube. The Borg's hive mind allows for far faster decision making and far faster application of those decisions.

So? One good link + logic >>>>>>>>> a bunch of decent links + "omg I showed you a picture that didn't actually provide any evidence for its claim (or at least not in the picture itself, which is all you showed me) and I'll bash you for not conceding because I showed you a picture!!!" logic

What would you like me to provide you with?...A full set of all ST episodes on dvd?...If your concentration span can't last to a few lines on an internet forum then I seriously doubt they'll last to some 700 hours of ST.

And a SD shield could easily stop a weapon 24 times that of a nuke, considering the fact that it can withstand repeated blasts from turbolasers with MILLIONS OF GIGAWATTS of power, which eclipses that of the electricity used by the US in an entire year BY FAR (ie billions of times)

Yet, as proven on screen, a turbo laser causes a small explosion in a hanger deck that isn't shielded. Go figure.

Regardless...3 words...Multikinetic Neutronic Mine.

Every so slightly more powerful that a turbo laser.

wtf? Where? When?

By PM so don't even think about trying to deny it. Or shall we mention at this point the entire "copy and paste" nature of your debate. Proven by the fact that you couldn't even send me and Robtard a unique PM on the subject and infact sent us both exactly the same message.

You copy and pasted your so called "canon" figures from exactly the same source as the person who posted them in the other thread. They were disproven then and they're no more valid now. At least the person I was debating with had the sense to bow out gracefully.

Its reactor power is 200 trillion gw, EACH shot from a turbolaser is hundreds millions, and they have a pretty high rate of fire AND there are a TON of them surrounding the ship. So you have an armada of turbolasers firing at a very fast (although I'm not sure exactly how fast) rate of hundreds millions of gw vs a few hundreds per second...yeah, SW has the advantage here.

Clearly a sold argument you have...A ton of them firing...not sure how fast. Makes your reactor figure extremely shaky as well doesn't it.

Here's something to bear in mind. In Voyager Tom Paris found a TERAWATT RIFLE. A terawatt is to a factor of 10 greater than a gigawatt. From a rifle.

Starfleet used a 60 terawatt tachyon beam to establish contact with Voyager from across the galaxy.

The Hirgogen claimed a set o ancient relay stations that were powered by artifical quantum singularities that gave out terawatts of power.

So no...I really don't think SW has it on the energy output battle at all.

You show'd me a picture...hurray? If I show you a picture that shows the Q being killed by a stormtrooper, does that mean that it's valid? Show me PROOF, not a picture that shows nothing other than the CONCLUSION but not the EVIDENCE. See how stupid this is? You show me a picture...and say that it's stupid for me not to get it. Hypocrite.

FOR THE LAST TIME...THEY'RE FROM CANON FIGURES SHOWN ONSCREEN. I'M HARDLY GOING TO BUY YOU THE DVDS AM I? YOU IDIOT.

You're wasting your breath, highlander. You disprove his claim with show/movie feats; he ignores it first, then he eventually drops his claim, only to bring it back up a couple pages later like you haven't already countered it.

So if there's anything to learn here, not even logic, common sense and show/movie facts can counter rampant Star Wars Faboyism.

Originally posted by jaden101
And ST, in the form of species 8472, has an entire universe called fluidic space with which to draw numbers. You do realise that's considerably more numbers (and proven power) than 1 galaxy.

Since when is it the size of a universe? Is species 8472's numbers ever quantified?

Originally posted by jaden101

And i've already countered your galaxy gun idiotic point. If you get them ST gets cloaks on all planets making the galaxy guns useless anyway.

"on all planets" so they manage to cloak every single planet before SW can use probes and such to see them?

Even if they do, SW will still be able to see supply ships/military ships traveling in and out of invisible planets, as well as the effect of gravity (just like in AOTC). And how is it idiotic? Even if it's wrong (which it isn't) that doesn't make it "idiotic". It's entirely reasonable to assume that a planet destroying weapon could...well, destroy ST planets.

Originally posted by jaden101

There is no currency is almost all species in ST so effectively they cost nothing. You're also completely missing the point. SW doesn't have infinite resources. It can't simply churn out infinite numbers of galaxy guns. Yet you're arguing that SW can and ST can't on silly principles like cost.

It may cost no currency, but it costs time and resources. And no, SW doesn't have infinite resources, but apparently you missed my part about the Star Forge...again, because you fail to read...again.

Originally posted by jaden101

As for drawbacks of phased weapons. I can't recall them ever missing a target although, apparently, they occassionally don't detonate (as do most explosive weapons occassionally)

You're also being hypocritical again. It doesn't matter if 1 species or alliance didn't know how to build them. If you're going to argue that the Rakatan empire can share their technology with the rest of the universe then you can't deny that same principle to the ST side of the debate and be expected to be taken seriously can you?

How many times were they fired?

WHO knows how to build them?

Originally posted by jaden101

Once again you miss my point by a royal mile. I never said you didn't mention them. I said you're ignorant of ST EU because within it they have huge numbers of ground weapons/artillery etc. So your statement of "ST lacks tank" etc is completely invalid. Simply because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

How many times do I have to tell you. I'll put it in big simply letters for you this time.

IT CAN'T BE FANBOYISM BECAUSE I ACTUALLY PREFER STAR WARS.

Lets look at the facts.

Does SW tech have the ability to time travel?....No

Does SW tech incorporate weapons that exist out of normal space?....No

Does SW have transporter tech?....No

Does SW have advanced replicator tech?....No

Does SW have weapons that can destroy areas thousands of times the size of a solar system?....No

Has any SW species shown the ability to build something even close to that of the Dyson's sphere shown in "Relics"?....No

Is there any mention o advanced nano technology in SW?....No

Does SW have the advanced medical technology that ST has?...No

Does SW have ablative armour?...No

Actually, you said that I didn't take into account ground battles. So you basically claimed that I ignored them.

Memory Alpha, Wikipedia and numerous other sites state that the novels/other EU material are NOT canon (and don't try and say "oh well Memory Alpha/Wikipedia are just open, non canon encyclopedias because you've been using it too, and they + other sites more or less all claim the same thing...that ST novels aren't canon) and that only the films, episodes and apparently cartoons are.

Originally posted by jaden101

The fighters are basically irrelevant seeing as they have nowhere near the power to even drain ST shields by 1%.

I would also disagree about the Falcon's crew being "better" in a tactics sense than a Borg cube. The Borg's hive mind allows for far faster decision making and far faster application of those decisions.

Reread that link I sent you with the stats of the Enterprise and Aclamator and such. It also lists Slave 1's stats...and they're still FAR above that of the Enterprise.

Well, that's debatable, but not important for this discussion.

Originally posted by jaden101

What would you like me to provide you with?...A full set of all ST episodes on dvd?...If your concentration span can't last to a few lines on an internet forum then I seriously doubt they'll last to some 700 hours of ST.

Yet, as proven on screen, a turbo laser causes a small explosion in a hanger deck that isn't shielded. Go figure.

Regardless...3 words...Multikinetic Neutronic Mine.

Every so slightly more powerful that a turbo laser.

I'd like to at least explain to me the descriptions/feats. In other words, provide some sort of proof.

Pointless argument. This shows that even the unshielded hulls are very durable (there is a canon source for the firepower of a turbolaser, so therefore we use that as the benchmark and not the unquantified hull durability)...which helps SW!

Originally posted by jaden101

By PM so don't even think about trying to deny it. Or shall we mention at this point the entire "copy and paste" nature of your debate. Proven by the fact that you couldn't even send me and Robtard a unique PM on the subject and infact sent us both exactly the same message.

You copy and pasted your so called "canon" figures from exactly the same source as the person who posted them in the other thread. They were disproven then and they're no more valid now. At least the person I was debating with had the sense to bow out gracefully.

I made a post on this thread that took back that question after I saw your private message (I don't check it that often)...obviously you ignored it.

No, you didn't disprove them. You ADMITTED to them and made the excuse "oh well that's because the Enterprise is a science vessel and not a war ship!" and when I destroyed that argument (you still haven't directly responded to my rebuttal except for suddenly claiming that those figures are false) you instead changed your argument to "no, those figures are false!"

Originally posted by Robtard
You're wasting your breath, highlander. You disprove his claim with show/movie feats; he ignores it first, then he eventually drops his claim, only to bring it back up a couple pages later like you haven't already countered it.

So if there's anything to learn here, not even logic, common sense and show/movie facts can counter rampant Star Wars Faboyism.

I responded to your rebuttals, and you ignored them all, instead just saying "omg you're wrong".

This is VERY common among irrational and immature people: people do it when they don't actually have proof/evidence for their point but aren't willing to be mature and admit defeat, so they just spam random insults and ignore any logical responses.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Since when is it the size of a universe? Is species 8472's numbers ever quantified?

Watch Star Trek: Voyager.

Edit: Which just reminded me, the Krenim time-ship could erase an entire species from existance with it's temporal gun. This ship also exist out of normal space-time, so no amount of firepower can affect it.

Since when is it the size of a universe? Is species 8472's numbers ever quantified?

Since it's canonically stated that it's an another universe accessible through quantum singularities.

"on all planets" so they manage to cloak every single planet before SW can use probes and such to see them?

So the Star Forge manages to make thousands of galaxy guns before it's destroyed?...

Even if they do, SW will still be able to see supply ships/military ships traveling in and out of invisible planets, as well as the effect of gravity (just like in AOTC). And how is it idiotic? Even if it's wrong (which it isn't) that doesn't make it "idiotic". It's entirely reasonable to assume that a planet destroying weapon could...well, destroy ST planets.

Ships are cloaked too. And given that the Scimitar has a perfect and undetectable cloak...We'll use your debating technique and extrapolate that to all ST ships.

It may cost no currency, but it costs time and resources. And no, SW doesn't have infinite resources, but apparently you missed my part about the Star Forge...again, because you fail to read...again.

You're the one lacking in reading comprehension and ability to understand (big words...Look them up)

How many times were they fired? WHO knows how to build them?

By YOUR debating tactic...IT DOESN'T MATTER. It's not difficult to understand. If your logic is that some species in ST don't know how to build phased or temporal weapons then the Star Forge was destroyed before the galaxy gun was designed so one wouldn't be able to manufacture the other. You can't have it both ways. What's difficult about not being hypocritical in terms of that way of debating?

Memory Alpha, Wikipedia and numerous other sites state that the novels/other EU material are NOT canon (and don't try and say "oh well Memory Alpha/Wikipedia are just open, non canon encyclopedias because you've been using it too, and they + other sites more or less all claim the same thing...that ST novels aren't canon) and that only the films, episodes and apparently cartoons are.

So now you're arguing that SW novels can be used and ST ones can't?

I'd like to at least explain to me the descriptions/feats. In other words, provide some sort of proof.

Please...You 1st.

Seeing as this entire debate started with me asking how SW would counter certain weapons which you have utterly and completely failed to do so far.

I've given numerous actual events from ST episodes so to say I haven't been listing feats when I clearly have is complete lies. I've even posted clips from youtube of feats as well (something you've not done for SW at all)

I've shown the bioships destroying a planet, for example. I've shown the ST shield power against the hussnock weapons. I've given canon examples of SW inferior range weapons by describing how they fought in the battle of Corascant. I've shown how a single Borg cube could scrape entire cities off the surface of planets. I've described the power of a Borg multikinetic neutronic mine using canon figures straight from the mouthes of characters on the show. I've given canon examples of how the Krenim time weapon works to eradicate species so as to stop them existing altogether.

Shall I keep going?

Pointless argument. This shows that even the unshielded hulls are very durable (there is a canon source for the firepower of a turbolaser, so therefore we use that as the benchmark and not the unquantified hull durability)...which helps SW!

It wasn't a hull...It was a hanger deck...I think I made that quite clear several times now. By your stats a single shot should have vapourised the entire ship...It made a small explosion on a hanger deck.

No, you didn't disprove them. You ADMITTED to them and made the excuse "oh well that's because the Enterprise is a science vessel and not a war ship!" and when I destroyed that argument (you still haven't directly responded to my rebuttal except for suddenly claiming that those figures are false) you instead changed your argument to "no, those figures are false!"

So you asked me for proof and then when I provided the figures and tackled your argument from that point (given that you didn't want to accept my other argument) You then try and say i'm changing my argument (which is what you asked for in the 1st place)

Hardly a valid point you're making is it?

No counters for my canon proof of ST having technology that puts out power in ranges far above SW then?...

Nah...didn't think so.

How about tackling the points next time.

Originally posted by jaden101
I've given canon examples of how the Krenim time weapon works to eradicate species so as to stop them existing altogether.

I didn't see you make this point before, as I just brought it up. This is all Star Trek really needs to defeat anything/everything Star Wars.

Originally posted by jaden101
Since it's canonically stated that it's an another universe accessible through quantum singularities.

Well, not to get picky, but you stated that numbers aren't a factor here and that we're only discussing technology (you said this in response to my claim of SW's numerical superiority).

Originally posted by jaden101

So the Star Forge manages to make thousands of galaxy guns before it's destroyed?...

Why not? The Galaxy Gun was made relatively quickly, and with multiple SF's it should take even less time. You just surround the SF's with star destroyers and even the Death Star.

Originally posted by jaden101

Ships are cloaked too. And given that the Scimitar has a perfect and undetectable cloak...We'll use your debating technique and extrapolate that to all ST ships.

Not all ships are cloaked because not all of them can for various reasons, such as energy consumption. And my point about gravity still stands.

Originally posted by jaden101

You're the one lacking in reading comprehension and ability to understand (big words...Look them up)

By YOUR debating tactic...IT DOESN'T MATTER. It's not difficult to understand. If your logic is that some species in ST don't know how to build phased or temporal weapons then the Star Forge was destroyed before the galaxy gun was designed so one wouldn't be able to manufacture the other. You can't have it both ways. What's difficult about not being hypocritical in terms of that way of debating?

...what?

Does whatever faction that knows how to build it exist within the main ST timeline? We both agreed that we're only allowing stuff from a single timeline.

Originally posted by jaden101

So now you're arguing that SW novels can be used and ST ones can't?

Yes, because SW novels ARE considered to be canon, whereas ST novels are NOT considered to be canon.

Originally posted by jaden101

Please...You 1st.

Seeing as this entire debate started with me asking how SW would counter certain weapons which you have utterly and completely failed to do so far.

I've given numerous actual events from ST episodes so to say I haven't been listing feats when I clearly have is complete lies. I've even posted clips from youtube of feats as well (something you've not done for SW at all)

I've shown the bioships destroying a planet, for example. I've shown the ST shield power against the hussnock weapons. I've given canon examples of SW inferior range weapons by describing how they fought in the battle of Corascant. I've shown how a single Borg cube could scrape entire cities off the surface of planets. I've described the power of a Borg multikinetic neutronic mine using canon figures straight from the mouthes of characters on the show. I've given canon examples of how the Krenim time weapon works to eradicate species so as to stop them existing altogether.

No, this debate started with Star Wars vs Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica and Lord of the Rings, but it quickly boiled down to Star Wars vs Star Trek. You asking how SW would counter certain weapons wasn't until later.

Omg! I didn't use youtube! Gasp!

Bioships destroyed a planet...so can SW. When have you talked about hussnock weapons? What's wrong with how they fought in the battle of Coruscant, especially since the CIS ships would have to get closer than usual since they were trying to invade Coruscant and capture Palpatine?

Originally posted by jaden101

It wasn't a hull...It was a hanger deck...I think I made that quite clear several times now. By your stats a single shot should have vapourised the entire ship...It made a small explosion on a hanger deck.

So you asked me for proof and then when I provided the figures and tackled your argument from that point (given that you didn't want to accept my other argument) You then try and say i'm changing my argument (which is what you asked for in the 1st place)

Hardly a valid point you're making is it?

No counters for my canon proof of ST having technology that puts out power in ranges far above SW then?...

Nah...didn't think so.

How about tackling the points next time.

So that shows that a hanger deck is really durable, NOT that a turbolaser isn't, because the latter has canon stats, so it should be the benchmark.

No, I asked you if an outdated assault ship from ST is billions of times more powerful than the Enterprise.

What canon proof? You showed me a picture!

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
...what?
Does whatever faction that knows how to build it exist within the main ST timeline? We both agreed that we're only allowing stuff from a single timeline.

Wait a second, "agreed that we're only allowing stuff from a single timeline."
What timeline is that exactly? Does that include expanded universe such as KoTOR and NJO? Because if not, Star Wars is going to lose really fast. I mean the Galaxy Gun was from expanded universe was it not? If so I will assume that we can use expanded universe material. And if Jedi/Sith are not considered near omnipotents then Star Wars may yet have a good chance on at the very least, a tie! If you think about it, Darth Nihilus was able to speak a few mere words and destroy an entire planet. Darth Sidious used a force storm to wipe out part of the Rebel's fleet(expanded universe)! There are also the Mandalorians that live for war and have many machines like the Basalisk War Droid that are fast, powerful, and almost unstoppable.

"The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual explains that it works in two stages, when the shields are hit by an energy or particle weapon, phaser or thermal energy from the ship is dissipated across the hull, creating a boil-off rate that carries away most of the incoming beam's energy. Most of the time the boil-off creates a particle cloud that is dense enough to disperse the incoming beam." (quoted from Wikipedia) It says MOST of the time therefore it isn't energy proof, its only energy resistant. Also, what about Ion beams? Ion would be affected little, if at all, by the shields and would love the armor. Once hitting the ship would continue by shutting down computers and most other powered devices. Which would leave ST ships a little vunerable, right?

Well, not to get picky, but you stated that numbers aren't a factor here and that we're only discussing technology (you said this in response to my claim of SW's numerical superiority).

The difference is that the figures I quoted are actually in the ST series. Said aloud by main characters. This is as pure canon as it gets.

Why not? The Galaxy Gun was made relatively quickly, and with multiple SF's it should take even less time. You just surround the SF's with star destroyers and even the Death Star.

I'm not saying you can't use them that way but you keep changing the parameters of the argument. You say the SF can be used to make more GG's but at the same time you say that ST can't have anymore phased weapons than are shown in the shows (or at the very least you imply that they shouldn't be allowed)...Same with cloaking technology.

Not all ships are cloaked because not all of them can for various reasons, such as energy consumption. And my point about gravity still stands.

Again we'll use your method of debate with regards to the SF and GG. It wouldn't matter if some couldn't due to the ability to share tecnology among species and time periods (which is what you propose when you say the SF can build GG's)

...what? Does whatever faction that knows how to build it exist within the main ST timeline? We both agreed that we're only allowing stuff from a single timeline.

Deary me. This really is getting quite tedious.

You are saying that the SF can be used to make thousands of copies of a weapon that only existed AFTER the SF was destroyed. So by that logic the same principle can be applied to technology. ST species that have the ability to cloak planets and ships can share that tech with those who don't. Which then defeats the entire purpose of the debate anyway which is to use the weapons as they are shown and in the numbers they are shown or quoted as being.

Yes, because SW novels ARE considered to be canon, whereas ST novels are NOT considered to be canon.

Nonsense gimping argument. And you know. Desperation clearly creeping in.

No, this debate started with Star Wars vs Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica and Lord of the Rings, but it quickly boiled down to Star Wars vs Star Trek. You asking how SW would counter certain weapons wasn't until later.

It started as you trying to make what you thought to be another easy win thread for star wars. Unfortunately you've been shown wrong in several of them already. The "army of the dead" issue being a case in point from another thread. It then went into the ignorace of doan_m making a statement based on his knowledge of SW and complete lack of knowledge of ST....You then asked the question "how does ST win?" followed by the ignorant statement that has defined your argument and shown your knowledge of ST since the start of the thread.

I mean, Star Wars has FAR superior weapons and overall superior technology.

Despite being shown that SW has absolutely nothing on the level of temporal (time) and spacial based weapons as well as many other pieces of tech that SW hasn't even begun to develop.

So that shows that a hanger deck is really durable, NOT that a turbolaser isn't, because the latter has canon stats, so it should be the benchmark.

You really need to stop embarressing yourself with these reactionary, made-up claims. It's pathetic. You don't even know what scene i'm referring to.

It's when the turbolaser hits the hangerdeck/gun emplacement on the clone ship and barely has enough energy to flip over the enemy gun and throws a clone trooper through the air. By your figures it should have instantly vapourised everyone in the entire room.

No, I asked you if an outdated assault ship from ST is billions of times more powerful than the Enterprise.

So no...Quite clearly from the onscreen canon an acclamator isn't billions of times more powerful than anything.

What canon proof? You showed me a picture!

That was made using canon figures from actual onscreen footage and dialogue. Am I just repeating myself again?...Is it really that difficult for you to grasp this fact?

Originally posted by Jamefril
Wait a second, "agreed that we're only allowing stuff from a single timeline."
What timeline is that exactly? Does that include expanded universe such as KoTOR and NJO? Because if not, Star Wars is going to lose really fast. I mean the Galaxy Gun was from expanded universe was it not? If so I will assume that we can use expanded universe material. And if Jedi/Sith are not considered near omnipotents then Star Wars may yet have a good chance on at the very least, a tie! If you think about it, Darth Nihilus was able to speak a few mere words and destroy an entire planet. Darth Sidious used a force storm to wipe out part of the Rebel's fleet(expanded universe)! There are also the Mandalorians that live for war and have many machines like the Basalisk War Droid that are fast, powerful, and almost unstoppable.

"The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual explains that it works in two stages, when the shields are hit by an energy or particle weapon, phaser or thermal energy from the ship is dissipated across the hull, creating a boil-off rate that carries away most of the incoming beam's energy. Most of the time the boil-off creates a particle cloud that is dense enough to disperse the incoming beam." (quoted from Wikipedia) It says MOST of the time therefore it isn't energy proof, its only energy resistant. Also, what about Ion beams? Ion would be affected little, if at all, by the shields and would love the armor. Once hitting the ship would continue by shutting down computers and most other powered devices. Which would leave ST ships a little vunerable, right?

With enough gimping, SW can win, this is about the only way it can here, mass gimping.

I foresee temporal and phased weapons suddenly not being allowed.