Vader and Sidious vs. Luke and Mara

This fight will take place in the Jedi Temple on Corusaunt. Vader and Sidious vs. Luke and Mara. All of them are at their height of power.
Vader can be with or without his suit.
They all have access to a blaster and a second lightsaber.
Which team with have victory?

sideous gives luke a tough fight imo but luke will eventually win however palps would destroy mara no matter what.

luke would curb vader but mara could only feasibly beat vader with prep time.

This is interesting. Mara v. Force Unleashed Vader would be a spectacle. Vader is obviously physically stronger, but Mara has (arguably) a greater command of the Force and is unquestionably more athletic. Her bladework may even surpass Vader. (?)

I've never considered Mara that powerful in a one on one fight. She is really good at defeating opponents through more tactical methods.

Red Nemesis
This is interesting. Mara v. Force Unleashed Vader would be a spectacle. Vader is obviously physically stronger, but Mara has (arguably) a greater command of the Force and is unquestionably more athletic. Her bladework may even surpass Vader. (?)

wut

haermm

...

😐

no

The proof is in the [putting? pudding?]. His Imperial Majesty, Palpatine of Naboo, is probably the greatest collector of Force talent in the mythos. One of these characters was a fully initiated apprentice of the Sith Order, the other was a capable errand girl. If Mara was, in any way, a threat to Vader -- and she would be if she possessed a greater strength and/or command of the Force -- she'd be his number two. You can hone strength in the Force, you cannot create it. She did not possess the power or skill to ever surpass Vader. In a one on one fight, he would obliterate her.

the other was a capable errand girl.

Oh, that's funny, I was under the impression that we were using characters "at their height of power?" It isn't as though Mara has advanced from a glorified messenger to a preeminent master of a [relatively] militarized Jedi Order.

In fact:

You can hone strength in the Force, you cannot create it.

Mara has (arguably) a greater command of the Force

Hmm

Nemesis
Oh, that's funny, I was under the impression that we were using characters "at their height of power?"

That's right -- but it doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

Nemesis
It isn't as though Mara has advanced from a glorified messenger to a preeminent master of a [relatively] militarized Jedi Order.

It isn't as though she's screwing the brains out of its highest leader, either. Strength in the Force, potential, cannot be enhanced. If Palpatine sensed that Mara possessed the potential to rival or surpass Vader, he would have either killed him and trained her as his formal Sith apprentice or he would have killed her instead. He did neither, so she never had the strength to rival him.

Period? Yes, I think so.

Strength in the Force, potential, cannot be enhanced. If Palpatine sensed that Mara possessed the potential to rival or surpass Vader, he would have either killed him and trained her as his formal Sith apprentice or he would have killed her instead. He did neither, so she never had the strength to rival him.

This is, forgive me, begging the question.

Claim + Reason: Mara never had the potential to rival or surpass Vader, because if she did then Palpatine would have trained her.
Warrant: Palpatine would have trained her if she had the potential to rival or surpass Vader.

Your supporting evidence is that your claim is true. This is both fallacious circular reasoning and incorrect. You seem to be ignoring a key distinction, even as you try to attack me with it.

Potential is a very different characteristic than actual mastery. Sidious makes clear in RoDV that the damage Anakin has sustained has not diminished his potential. The problem is purely psychological. If this fact is considered then we see that Anakin's unmatched potential is still available. No one could surpass that. This does not mean that Vader is peerless. Caedus, for one, is explicitly noted to have exceeded his achieved strength.

Vader was by no means a scholar. His attention was not, as the Emperor's was, focused exclusively on the acquisition and mastery of new techniques. It is entirely possible that Mara learned more in the forty or so years after the fall of the Empire than Vader had at his command.

Mara has been shown to have an exceptionally subtle command of the Force. She was able to levitate herself while simultaneously using the Force to contain all traces of heat or motion (and also light?) emerging from her movement to evade a security camera. This multitasking is something rarely seen, being reserved for greats like Dooku, who used Force lightning regularly in combat.

This (everything posted beside your name) is, forgive me, incorrect.

Palpatine is the leading collector in Force-capable apprentices, acolytes, and minions. He was constantly on the lookout for one who possessed the capability to surpass Vader, from Starkiller to Skywalker. If Mara Jade possessed that ability, that attunement, that aptitude for Force prowess, he would have sensed it -- it's not something you can enhance or augment -- and he would have acted accordingly.

The fact that Mara Jade can supposedly multitask (since you don't have the exact feat documented with certainty) does not mean that she rivals or surpasses Dooku, who is a known multitasker, let alone Vader himself in any notable regard.

That you mention Caedus is another point: at the height of his power (which isn't Sacrifice), he has surpassed Vader. During her fight to the death with him, Mara herself recognizes that her Force powers are beneath his.

Vader has Mara on the feats and merits. To Palpatine, someone who has an eye for potential and the means to hone it far greater than Luke Skywalker of Bumfvck, Tatooine, Mara Jade was a glorified messenger. Her true notable feats in combat come from her gifts as a strategist and as an expert assassin, not as an overwhelming duelist or Force user.

Vader crushes her. Easily and effortlessly.

Originally posted by Gideon
This (everything posted beside your name) is, forgive me, incorrect.

Palpatine is the leading collector in Force-capable apprentices, acolytes, and minions. He was constantly on the lookout for one who possessed the capability to surpass Vader, from Starkiller to Skywalker. If Mara Jade possessed that ability, that attunement, that aptitude for Force prowess, he would have sensed it -- it's not something you can enhance or augment -- and he would have acted accordingly.

The fact that Mara Jade can supposedly multitask (since you don't have the exact feat documented with certainty) does not mean that she rivals or surpasses Dooku, who is a known multitasker, let alone Vader himself in any notable regard.

That you mention Caedus is another point: at the height of his power (which isn't Sacrifice), he has surpassed Vader. During her fight to the death with him, Mara herself recognizes that her Force powers are beneath his.

Vader has Mara on the feats and merits. To Palpatine, someone who has an eye for potential and the means to hone it far greater than Luke Skywalker of Bumfvck, Tatooine, Mara Jade was a glorified messenger. Her true notable feats in combat come from her gifts as a strategist and as an expert assassin, not as an overwhelming duelist or Force user.

Vader crushes her. Easily and effortlessly.

she is hot. but vader probably has no erm... ReVAN left anymore.

anyway, vader for the win. I'm not sure if it is effortless or not.

It is.

Vader isn't, actually, a raging psychotic loon like Caedus. He possesses some tactical brilliance (see the OT). Moreover, he had access to the Emperor's Hands and likely knows very well what sort of tricks Palpatine taught them. She may be a major pain in the ass under the right circumstances, but that's a big if.

I'm sure that there are dozens of Jedi, Sith, and dark Jedi who possess certain tricks and esoteric techniques that Vader doesn't know. But his lack of scholarly status doesn't make a damn bit of difference: he's still 80% of the most powerful Sith Lord in existence, a being of power held in high regard throughout the mythos. He's also the most prolific killer of Jedi in galactic history.

He's not going to be beaten or even significantly challenged by an admittedly skilled assassin in a straight up fight.

Simply.

Straight up fight, Vader, Effortlessly
Guerrilla Warfare, Mara,Months of prep.

true enough. In a Caedus/Mara sort of fight she has a chance. Her strength never is head to head though, so we can't expect her to win that many fights in such a scenario. Her strength was she never let herself get into scenarios like that.

Originally posted by truejedi
true enough. In a Caedus/Mara sort of fight she has a chance. Her strength never is head to head though, so we can't expect her to win that many fights in such a scenario. Her strength was she never let herself get into scenarios like that.

well no, she was in an assassin scenario with caedus, he just wouldn't freaking die like a person should.

Originally posted by truejedi
well no, she was in an assassin scenario with caedus, he just wouldn't freaking die like a person should.

Originally posted by truejedi
well no, she was in an assassin scenario with caedus, he just wouldn't freaking die like a person should.

Were you not here for the one that got skullfvckt by the 3 hands of Caedus?

I mean, I thought that you were the one complaining about it?

Originally posted by Gideon
This (everything posted beside your name) is, forgive me, incorrect.

Palpatine is the leading collector in Force-capable apprentices, acolytes, and minions. He was constantly on the lookout for one who possessed the capability to surpass Vader, from Starkiller to Skywalker. If Mara Jade possessed that ability, that attunement, that aptitude for Force prowess, he would have sensed it -- it's not something you can enhance or augment -- and he would have acted accordingly.

Vader's potential is unmatched. "More than Master Yoda" doesn't mean nothing. It would be silly for someone to argue that (to use your phrase) a "capable errand girl" has a chance at higher Force potential.

I am not being silly.

I am observing the difference between actualized and idealized power. Vader's idealized power is unmatched, save for one Luke Skywalker. RoDV makes clear that Palpatine still considers the "UNLIMITED POWAH" to be available, as the damage is purely psychological. Under your own utility equation (maximize Force potential in apprentice) Vader is still the optimal choice.

Vader never fulfilled his potential. We have a being of (nearly?) infinite potential that achieved X level of power. X could increase. There is therefore no situation in which a conventional Force user could hope to replace Vader. Only Luke shared his (lack of a) limit, so only Luke was viable. Mara was not viable.

This does not mean that Mara's mastery is automatically inferior.

Vader: X current power level, infinite improvement
Jade: Y current power level, finite improvement

X > Y @ Endor
X ? Y after 40 years

Vader's growth stopped. Mara's continued to an unquantified degree. It is at least possible that she has equaled his achievement.

The fact that Mara Jade can supposedly multitask (since you don't have the exact feat documented with certainty) does not mean that she rivals or surpasses Dooku, who is a known multitasker, let alone Vader himself in any notable regard.

Wookieepedia gave me this citation:

Wookieepedia
By the time of the Second Galactic Civil War, Mara's talents as a Jedi Master had progressed enough that she was able to levitate herself across an open area on a bubble of Force energy while keeping the air around her stilled and her heat emissions minimal to avoid setting off any sensors.
-Betrayal

That you mention Caedus is another point: at the height of his power (which isn't Sacrifice), he has surpassed Vader. During her fight to the death with him, Mara herself recognizes that her Force powers are beneath his.

Vader has Mara on the feats and merits. To Palpatine, someone who has an eye for potential and the means to hone it far greater than Luke Skywalker of Bumfvck, Tatooine, Mara Jade was a glorified messenger. Her true notable feats in combat come from her gifts as a strategist and as an expert assassin, not as an overwhelming duelist or Force user.

Vader crushes her. Easily and effortlessly. [/B]

Mara Jade was a combatant that killed an individual that considered himself on par with Luke WTF overpowerd Skywalker (he survived by DMauthor fiat). This makes the pairing worth thinking about, at least.

Nemesis
I dunno if it's the paint they use at college, or if it's something in the food, but you aren't at your best right now. This almost (but only almost) feels like I'm taking unfair advantage of a handicap.

Since you know almost nothing about college (you're thirteen, correct?), we'll chalk this up to the fly cautioning the spider and move on. It is interesting to note that you mention a handicap, given the fact that nothing you've provided has any merit whatsoever.

Nemesis
This is interesting. Mara v. Force Unleashed Vader would be a spectacle.

A spectacle in that it would be an ample demonstration of a curbstomp.

Nemesis
Vader is obviously physically stronger, but Mara has (arguably) a greater command of the Force

Prove it.

Oh, wait. You can't. This would be Unsupported (and false) Claim #1.

Nemesis
and is unquestionably more athletic.

Your point? So's just about everyone. Prove how this would be an advantage in a fight against someone with so much overwhelming superiority in the Force.

Nemesis
Her bladework may even surpass Vader. (?)

This would be Unsupported Claim #2; prove it.

Vader possessed a sufficient command of lightsaber combat that he could borrow from all seven lightsaber forms and combine them into an unorthodox application; he's bested multiple Jedi in combat simultaneously, and shamed one of Palpatine's Hands in single combat (and then later, his clones) in In His Image.

The rest:

We've already established that Jade's potential is miles beneath Vader's own. In order for her to have surpassed the Dark Lord, you have to prove that she had access to a wealth of Force techniques. She didn't; she knew next to nothing because Palpatine limited her Force knowledge, and Luke Skywalker isn't exactly a living archive on Force technique. She is an assassin first, Jedi second.

The only appearance of proof you've offered is (1) that Wookieepedia says she was able to multitask due to a technique that you say is on par with Masters.

That's... insufficient. Vader is beyond Master level, Wookieepedia isn't the end all be all in terms of elaboration, and your memory is flawed. I'm interested in the source material.

Lest we forget that the only other offering you've made is that she -- under a specific set of circumstances -- threatened someone who may be on Vader's level because he personally considered himself to be on par with Luke Skywalker.

This is a gross misapplication of logic. You've offered nothing to corroborate or supplement your argument; Vader wins on the feats, on the accolades, and on the achievements, which means that my argument wins and your argument loses.

So the real question is: which one of us is truly handicapped? Certainly not the winner (me). Which leaves you.

Don't bother me with something like this again. If you want to make your case, make it. You will provide proof.

Now.

Edit: And, just so we're clear, no one likes you.