Originally posted by Sith Master X
I'm just gonna keep it simple, and say that Palpy was responsible. He's the one that fed ANAKIN all the BS, and ANAKIN was dumb enough to believe him....so I guess, it's both their faults to be precise.Palpy: I have the power to save the one you love.
(Anakin cuts off Mace's arm, he gets thrown out the window.)Then all the sudden-
Palpy: To cheat death, the power only one has achieve, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.Right then and there, Anakin should have been like "I thought you already knew the secret" AKA he should have realize that he was being played.
You see, I love ROTS, but this is one aspect of the movie I hated, because it made Anakin look like a complete idiot.
I don't see why. Palpatine had been working on Anakin for 13 years, since the first day he met him on Naboo, promising to 'watch his career with great interest.' He gained Anakin trust over the ensuing years, subconsciously playing the father figure he knew Anakin always wanted. He confused Anakin mind about what the right way for a Jedi to act was - if it's to think of others, Anakin mistook that for acting to save his secret wife. Anakin did turn him in to the council, but agonized over the Chancellor's possible death without getting his secret knowledge. Emotions overrode his reason when he cut off Mace Windu's arm, and from that moment he was hooked for good - though he knew he was committing a terrible crime, he couldn't stop himself trying to save Padme.
Originally posted by queeq
It just gets worse all the time. I only wished Lucas never dragged these bloody midi's into the saga. And why???? Oh why??? We never hear from them again...
It makes sense for the Jedi to have some scientific test to measure force potential. The Jedi sit in the middle of an intergalactic bureaucracy, the acting hands of the Chancellor and the Senate. They get their funding from them, and I think Senate members would want to see something beyond a Jedi's intuition as to how they recruit, how many members they have etc. The force is not easily understood by many. So the Jedi devise tests to show force potential to justify their recruits. We see it's necessary to play the political game to advance up in the council and to keep favour with the politicians - something Qui-Gon never did, which is what kept him off the council.
I know that official explanation. But it's a stupid plot device and a bad move altogether.
Someone said it very well like this:
In the OT Jedi were being defined by what they did.
In the PT Jedi were being defined by what they were biologically.
The latter means: you are a Jedi by having a superior biology. Sort of an ubermensch. Which makes sense in the PT since the Jedi don't seem to care at all about peace and justice. They are stoic, uncaring, talk a lot, are rude to newcomers and care more about taxation and border disputes than releasing slaves on a backwater planet.
Maybe he just wanted to watch, which proves he was evil from the start.
But that's already clear from TPM (where he steals an awful lot of parts to build a pod racer and a droid) and AOTC (where's he whiny, insolent, arrogant, disobedient, prefers a dictatorship to force people into a certain way of life and likes to kill women and children).
I agree in the sense that more could have been shown. There are aspects that disappointed me as I feel like Obi-Wan and Grievous was a complete waste of time when he should have been more of integrated part of Anakin's fall.
Mustafar was an excuse to create a colorful, menacing CGI world so the duel would look epic, when in all reality, the duel should have taken place at the Jedi temple. It would have a made more sense since Anakin is fighting to destroy the Jedi, and Obi-Wan is trying to save whats left of it. Build an actual set of a temple, light it with a dark, chiling atmosphere, rig sparks and explosvies in that set so things look like the are naturally breaking apart and being destroyed. It would have worked just fine.
Despite it's flaws though....I still love it. It's Star Wars. It wasn't perfect, but I loved it. I think Lucas nailed aspects of Episode 3 that were missing from the first 2.
Originally posted by Sith Master X
I agree in the sense that more could have been shown. There are aspects that disappointed me as I feel like Obi-Wan and Grievous was a complete waste of time when he should have been more of integrated part of Anakin's fall.Mustafar was an excuse to create a colorful, menacing CGI world so the duel would look epic, when in all reality, the duel should have taken place at the Jedi temple. It would have a made more sense since Anakin is fighting to destroy the Jedi, and Obi-Wan is trying to save whats left of it. Build an actual set of a temple, light it with a dark, chiling atmosphere, rig sparks and explosvies in that set so things look like the are naturally breaking apart and being destroyed. It would have worked just fine.
Despite it's flaws though....I still love it. It's Star Wars. It wasn't perfect, but I loved it. I think Lucas nailed aspects of Episode 3 that were missing from the first 2.
Ive said this many times before. The novelization for ROTS was 10 times better than the movie. And they had to have it on Mustafar, how else was Anakin going to get fried to a crisp and need the suit? Im glad it wasnt in the temple. And I agree, I love it too because its Star Wars but the OT far outshines the PT in my book.
Originally posted by Sith Master X
The way I take it, the higher your midichilorians are, the more force sensitive you are.The thing I thought was weird with the PT was that if you are to become a Jedi, you apparently have to start training as a small kid. Luke never did this, and he still learned to use the force and become a Jedi.
Yeah, well we see now what a risky move it was to train Luke at all. There was a lot more behind Yoda's statement in ESB about Luke being too old to start serious training. It was Obi Wan pushing it, because of the truth hidden from Luke at that time - he was Vader son, and had the same amount of force sensitivity as his father. But his father started training late too, and it wasn't enough to stop his fall. But these are the extreme measures you are pushed to, when you are part of a Jedi Order that's nearly extinct, with a Galactic Empire ready to kill you at any sign you're alive. You're pressed to find suitable young candidates because you can't go out and get them openly. So they gambled with Luke - and thankfully passed the test his father couldn't.
Originally posted by ~JP~
Ive said this many times before. The novelization for ROTS was 10 times better than the movie. And they had to have it on Mustafar, how else was Anakin going to get fried to a crisp and need the suit? Im glad it wasnt in the temple. And I agree, I love it too because its Star Wars but the OT far outshines the PT in my book.
I thought the temple would have sold the believability of it more. To better understand what I’m getting at, we need to trace back to how Mustafar was established and introduced to us.
GREVIOUS: “It won’t be long before the armies of the republic track us here. I’m sending you to the Mustafar system in the outer rim. It is a volcanic planet. You will be safe there.”
Problem numero uno. You can’t be safe on a planet that is nothing but erupting Volcanoes. Secondly, why would the Separatist be sent there to begin with? So nobody finds them? The could all crawl under some hole on the other side of Utapau, and they would be more safe there than they would be on a ticking timebomb planet, and better yet, no one probably would have found them."
But wait, this gets better. Now that the Separatist have been sent to a place where there’s lots of fire and floating embers, Palpatine can now conveniently say to Anakin “Go the Mustafar system, wipe out Viceroy Gunray and the other Separatist leaders.” Even though he's got 3 million clones to do the same thing. Thus, this sets up an excuse to have a duel on a planet “that looks like hell.” But when you think about it, did Lucas really need to have an entire planet that was full of lava be the result of Anakin’s injuries? He could have fried anywhere, even on a planet that doesn’t have Volcanoes. The Jedi temple was set ablaze during order 66. Obi-Wan could have chopped a few limbs off still, Anakin could have fallen into an area that was on fire. It doesn’t really take an entire planet full of this stuff to convince us that he caught on fire.
My only thing is, while I love Mustafar and while I know I’m being nitpicky, it was more “forced” than anything else. GL creates Mustafar as a planet with no association to anything other than being a hideout for the Separatist, even though they could have hid anywhere.
If the movie had been handled a little more carefully, some of the plot could have been drastically changed to be more emotional. Obi-Wan could have walked in on Anakin while he was raiding the Jedi Temple. Thus turns on his lightsaber after witnessing first hand that Anakin has truly gone mad, rather than some stupid security hologram, which again, was convenient.
Instead of Padme dying of a broken heart, she could have tried to reason with him in the temple, but in his recklessness, he’s dismantling the temple using the force and carelessly aiming debris at Obi-Wan, when a piece could have slammed Padme across the head knocking her to the floor. Anakin goes into complete shock after seeing the one he loves fall to the ground, and alas- Obi-Wan takes advantage and delivers the final blow while he's vulnerable. This better sets up the line “It seems in your anger, you killed her.”
At this point , I’ll call it quits. Lol I could go on all day on how if I had directed the movie I would have done this and that, but it’s not the way it is. I still like everything Lucas did though. I loved ROTS with a passion, I just might have taken things in a different direction.
Originally posted by Sith Master X
I thought the temple would have sold the believability of it more. To better understand what I’m getting at, we need to trace back to how Mustafar was established and introduced to us.GREVIOUS: “It won’t be long before the armies of the republic track us here. I’m sending you to the Mustafar system in the outer rim. It is a volcanic planet. You will be safe there.”
Problem numero uno. You can’t be safe on a planet that is nothing but erupting Volcanoes. Secondly, why would the Separatist be sent there to begin with? So nobody finds them? The could all crawl under some hole on the other side of Utapau, and they would be more safe there than they would be on a ticking timebomb planet, and better yet, no one probably would have found them."
But wait, this gets better. Now that the Separatist have been sent to a place where there’s lots of fire and floating embers, Palpatine can now conveniently say to Anakin “Go the Mustafar system, wipe out Viceroy Gunray and the other Separatist leaders.” Even though he's got 3 million clones to do the same thing. Thus, this sets up an excuse to have a duel on a planet “that looks like hell.” But when you think about it, did Lucas really need to have an entire planet that was full of lava be the result of Anakin’s injuries? He could have fried anywhere, even on a planet that doesn’t have Volcanoes. The Jedi temple was set ablaze during order 66. Obi-Wan could have chopped a few limbs off still, Anakin could have fallen into an area that was on fire. It doesn’t really take an entire planet full of this stuff to convince us that he caught on fire.
My only thing is, while I love Mustafar and while I know I’m being nitpicky, it was more “forced” than anything else. GL creates Mustafar as a planet with no association to anything other than being a hideout for the Separatist, even though they could have hid anywhere.
If the movie had been handled a little more carefully, some of the plot could have been drastically changed to be more emotional. Obi-Wan could have walked in on Anakin while he was raiding the Jedi Temple. Thus turns on his lightsaber after witnessing first hand that Anakin has truly gone mad, rather than some stupid security hologram, which again, was convenient.
Instead of Padme dying of a broken heart, she could have tried to reason with him in the temple, but in his recklessness, he’s dismantling the temple using the force and carelessly aiming debris at Obi-Wan, when a piece could have slammed Padme across the head knocking her to the floor. Anakin goes into complete shock after seeing the one he loves fall to the ground, and alas- Obi-Wan takes advantage and delivers the final blow while he's vulnerable. This better sets up the line “It seems in your anger, you killed her.”
At this point , I’ll call it quits. Lol I could go on all day on how if I had directed the movie I would have done this and that, but it’s not the way it is. I still like everything Lucas did though. I loved ROTS with a passion, I just might have taken things in a different direction.
Jesus...some people can't let things go...
Grievous sent them to Mustafar because Sidious ordered him to. It's not like they had had serious setbacks with him as the secret guiding force behind the Seperatists; Nute Gunray did express doubts about their safety, but went along with the need to be in a secret location. After all, they were eventually found on Utapau.
And Sidious orders Anakin to kill the Seperatist leaders for the same reasons he orders him to kill the Jedi at the Temple - becasue it's a test to bring him further into the Dark Side and under his wing.
We have known for years Anakin suffers an accident against Obi Wan that puts him into the life support suit he wore as Vader. The use of Mustafar was metaphorical as well - Anakin was in a hell of his own making, his presence there. And the contrast of being in a violently unstable place while Anakin rants about bringing peace and stability to the galaxy to a disbelieving Obi Wan - it's cool storytelling. The violent enviroment of Mustafar reflected Anakin's inner torment.
I've been hearing the Lucas bashing for over ten years now. I will always recognize they are his films to do with as he wants. Nothing will change my love for the OT that I was able to see in the theatres in the late 1970's & early 1980's. And I have yet to hear a piece of story criticism from the PT that I could not refute. Just saying "Well, that's just stupid" doesn't count for anything.
Hey pal, before you come down on me, I've done nothing but support Lucas on here for 6 years, and if you bothered to read anything I've written, I love the PT!
For once on here, I come out and say the things I thought could be particularly different, and now everyone said Lucas gets it right. Anytime I said Lucas got something right, everybody said he got it wrong. This was the first time in 6 years I've openly admitted to something that didn't make sense to me, but I also stated that I liked it nonetheless.
I don't think you've seen all the stuff I've written on here year after year supporting GL. I've been the first one to come on here and say they are his movies, and that he did everything he could to do the best job possible, and I love them the way they are.
I was simply offering alternatives visions, and ways that to me would have been more believable. That's about it.
I don't believe his movies are stupid, nor did I ever say they were.
I'm sure there's a few certain members on here who can back me up and say that I'm anything but a Lucas basher. Those members know who they are, and I would love it if they came forward and back me up on that.