Originally posted by queeq
Only one persion is responsible: Anakin himself. He made tha choice between right and wrong. Both points of view were amply presented to him and he chose.
Presented to him? He was goaded into turning to the dark side for crying out loud and what Palpatine did was beyond "presentation of choices", so to speak. He was inexperienced and completely fell for Palpatine's persuasion. Palpatine portrayed himself as a mentor aside from Obi-Wan hence was in a strong position to influence Anakin's thoughts and eventual decision.
But here's the catch- apart from Palpatine's "charisma" (rather odd in this context), Anakin did it out of love for Padme. He would've done anything to save her from a certain death and hence was already vulnerable and wouldn't have stood a chance against what Sidious proposed- Padme's well-being. He thus turned to the dark side because Sidious said it was the only way to save her and laced it with his persuasive powers, whether force-assisted or through the gift of the glib I don't know.
Also, Anakin felt he was more than capable of being part of the Jedi Council but was rejected time and time again. He subsequently got impatient in his quest for power and achievement and with Sidious' promises of unlimited power and due to his, well, slight annoyance with the Jedi, Sidious cleverly painted a bad picture of the Jedi and Anakin fell for it.
From this wall of text, we can hence infer that it was the a combination of Palpatine's shrewdness and brilliant manipulation, Anakin's love for Padme and to a small extent, the Jedi Council's failure to recognise Anakin's abilities by offering him a place in the Council which caused his downfall. (remember Windu was accepted at the age of 28 if I'm not mistaken)
However, if we are to move on to the combat aspect of his downfall, you can only blame it on his inexperience in using the Dark Side as well as his rashness displayed when trying to dispatch Obi-Wan. If he had used the Light Side against Obi-Wan he would've had a relatively easy job.
And Anakin could never be as powerful as he could've been after the bloody midichlorians were burnt out of him on Mustafar. I still despair from this fact.
And whiny.
Originally posted by Annus Mirabilis
Presented to him? He was goaded into turning to the dark side for crying out loud and what Palpatine did was beyond "presentation of choices", so to speak. He was inexperienced and completely fell for Palpatine's persuasion. Palpatine portrayed himself as a mentor aside from Obi-Wan hence was in a strong position to influence Anakin's thoughts and eventual decision.But here's the catch- apart from Palpatine's "charisma" (rather odd in this context), Anakin did it out of love for Padme. He would've done anything to save her from a certain death and hence was already vulnerable and wouldn't have stood a chance against what Sidious proposed- Padme's well-being. He thus turned to the dark side because Sidious said it was the only way to save her and laced it with his persuasive powers, whether force-assisted or through the gift of the glib I don't know.
Also, Anakin felt he was more than capable of being part of the Jedi Council but was rejected time and time again. He subsequently got impatient in his quest for power and achievement and with Sidious' promises of unlimited power and due to his, well, slight annoyance with the Jedi, Sidious cleverly painted a bad picture of the Jedi and Anakin fell for it.
From this wall of text, we can hence infer that it was the a combination of Palpatine's shrewdness and brilliant manipulation, Anakin's love for Padme and to a small extent, the Jedi Council's failure to recognise Anakin's abilities by offering him a place in the Council which caused his downfall. (remember Windu was accepted at the age of 28 if I'm not mistaken)
However, if we are to move on to the combat aspect of his downfall, you can only blame it on his inexperience in using the Dark Side as well as his rashness displayed when trying to dispatch Obi-Wan. If he had used the Light Side against Obi-Wan he would've had a relatively easy job.
And Anakin could never be as powerful as he could've been after the bloody midichlorians were burnt out of him on Mustafar. I still despair from this fact.
OB1 taught Anakin for 10 years, he learned some stuff from QGJ so pure Jedi teachings were presented to him amply. In his spare time Palpy seduces him, true. But in the end, he knew Palpy was a Sith lord. he even send the cops on him. And still he gives in. No matter what reason you give, love for Padme - manipulation - JC Council failure - it was Anakin who CHOSE and chose CONSCIOUSLY to go over to the evil dark side. He alone in the end is responsible for his actions. What you chose determines your future. If there is any point to SW it is that.
That's why Anakin's en Luke's lives are similar: Anakin choses for evil and Luke, under much the same circumstances en being much more vulnerable, choses for good. Luke is as much responsible for chosing the light side, as Anakin was for chosing the dark side.
Originally posted by queeq
And whiny.OB1 taught Anakin for 10 years, he learned some stuff from QGJ so pure Jedi teachings were presented to him amply. In his spare time Palpy seduces him, true. But in the end, he knew Palpy was a Sith lord. he even send the cops on him. And still he gives in. No matter what reason you give, love for Padme - manipulation - JC Council failure - it was Anakin who CHOSE and chose CONSCIOUSLY to go over to the evil dark side. He alone in the end is responsible for his actions. What you chose determines your future. If there is any point to SW it is that.
That's why Anakin's en Luke's lives are similar: Anakin choses for evil and Luke, under much the same circumstances en being much more vulnerable, choses for good. Luke is as much responsible for chosing the light side, as Anakin was for chosing the dark side.
Consciously? You do realise that there is no "conscious" choice but choices influenced by circumstances and factors, being the reasons I gave. What choices do you make which are devoid of due consideration and a balance of pros and cons?
Luke's life was not very similar to Anakin's. He was as reckless as Anakin was. However, he had a very strong cause NOT to turn to the dark side. He sensed the tinge of goodness still lingering in the far depths of Anakin and held on to it. It kept him from embarking on the same route his father took. He did not have his ego blown out of proportions like Anakin had his (remember he was called the warrior with no fear or something). He did not have Sidious to constantly toy around with his mind and closely mentor him like a son. What Luke faced was absolutely puny compared to what Anakin had to juggle before turning to the dark side.
Anakin on the other hand, had every reason to turn to the dark side, reason being the very factors I had mentioned.
Therefore, Anakin could not be fully held responsible for turning to the dark side, while Luke, with all due respect, had an easier job fighting the good fight.
Originally posted by Annus Mirabilis
Consciously? You do realise that there is no "conscious" choice but choices influenced by circumstances and factors, being the reasons I gave. What choices do you make which are devoid of due consideration and a balance of pros and cons?
That is life dude. We all make choices based on what we are given and what we find out by ourselves. You choice is still your choice.
Blaming someone else shows there's a lack of sense of responsibility. Exactly what Anakin was lacking. What was that line from Spiderman: With great power comes great responsibility. Anakin had great power, but was also irresponsible. But he made his choice, he prolly had some poor judgment, but he did not allow people to correct him. He KNEW killing Tuskens was bad, yet he did it and justified himself for it. He KNEW choosing for Padme was against Jedi rule. He KNEW the Sith were bad. He KNEW Palpy was a Sith. Nuff said. Anakin PHAILS.
Originally posted by queeq
That is life dude. We all make choices based on what we are given and what we find out by ourselves. You choice is still your choice.Blaming someone else shows there's a lack of sense of responsibility. Exactly what Anakin was lacking. What was that line from Spiderman: With great power comes great responsibility. Anakin had great power, but was also irresponsible. But he made his choice, he prolly had some poor judgment, but he did not allow people to correct him. He KNEW killing Tuskens was bad, yet he did it and justified himself for it. He KNEW choosing for Padme was against Jedi rule. He KNEW the Sith were bad. He KNEW Palpy was a Sith. Nuff said. Anakin PHAILS.
The fact that someone else is dragged into the matter is because he/she or what he/she does impacts and influences the final result. It's not blaming. It is identification of the contributing factors. Anakin made the choice not because he was irresponsible. To begin with, did he blame anyone for HIS OWN transition into the dark side?
He didn't allow anyone to correct him because he was already knee-deep in the quicksand that is the dark side. He wasn't Anakin anymore. He was already beginning to be influenced by the dark side prior to killing Tuskens. He was arrogant and arrogance led to the dark side. He let it cloud his judgement without being able to do anything. Helplessness and "poor judgement" are two vastly different things, sir.
Regarding Padme, I'd have done her too 😄
But digression aside- he started his training late and was too emotionally attached, taking a liking to Padme at first sight. Love is a powerful thing, my friend. It can empower you to do things you'd never known to be within your capacity; to refuse to conform to what's known as the "mainstream"; to do anything to keep your love alive and coursing through your veins. You're a mere pawn in the game of love. Anakin, at that point, was a mix of a slight dark side tendency, pulsating love and arrogance.
He felt compelled to stand by his feelings and stick by love for he had not learnt the Jedi values which condemned it from infancy. You may argue why he effectively murdered his own wife- he was already enveloped and shrouded in the dark side. He knows love not. He knows kinship not. Not anymore. He stood by, with the same uncompromising insistence, the dark side and hence degenerated into Darth Vader.
And I like these skirmishes, if you will 🙂
It still all excuses to deny the fact that when it comes to the question of this thread: who is to BLAME.... then the only answer can be Anakin himself. He screwed up.
There's is the case of being able to say no. He should have said no to killing tuskens, he should have said no to being a dork to his master, he should have said no to Pade, he should not have chosen to be loyal to an evil Sith. And all these things he did knowing they were wrong.
Originally posted by queeq
It still all excuses to deny the fact that when it comes to the question of this thread: who is to BLAME.... then the only answer can be Anakin himself. He screwed up.There's is the case of being able to say no. He should have said no to killing tuskens, he should have said no to being a dork to his master, he should have said no to Pade, he should not have chosen to be loyal to an evil Sith. And all these things he did knowing they were wrong.
And made with his judgement clouded with what I'd quoted before.
Originally posted by Annus Mirabilis
And made with his judgement clouded with what I'd quoted before.
But it was his own judgement. The Tusken Killing is a very good example. No one told him to do it, advised him even or gave even the faintest kind of notion that that would be a good idea. And yet... he did it.
If we have to believe OB1 in ROTJ, Anakin was once a 'good man'. I didn't see it. Even as a kid he used to steal from Watto... OMG....
Originally posted by queeq
But it was his own judgement. The Tusken Killing is a very good example. No one told him to do it, advised him even or gave even the faintest kind of notion that that would be a good idea. And yet... he did it.If we have to believe OB1 in ROTJ, Anakin was once a 'good man'. I didn't see it. Even as a kid he used to steal from Watto... OMG....
And again it wasn't his fault! His late introduction into Jedi training rendered him vulnerable to the emotions he had as a slave boy; hatred and such. He dwelled on these feelings and adding on to the attachment he had to his mother, he just blew his top and killed them raiders.
I would also like to point out that he did help one Tusken Raider out as a young lad.
Originally posted by Annus Mirabilis
And again it wasn't his fault!
Now you sound just as whiny as Luke and Anakin.... Of course it was his fault. No one held a lightsabre to his head and forced him to do the things he did. He chose, he is responsible... it is HIS choice. Ergo, his fault.
Originally posted by Annus Mirabilis
His late introduction into Jedi training rendered him vulnerable to the emotions he had as a slave boy; hatred and such. He dwelled on these feelings and adding on to the attachment he had to his mother, he just blew his top and killed them raiders.I would also like to point out that he did help one Tusken Raider out as a young lad.
One???? Now that certainly makes up for slaughtering him AND his whole tribe later on...
A lot of the same things apply to Luke though: started his traing VERY late in his life, lost his uncle and aunt in a horrible way (way more horrible than Anakin lost his mum), was lied to about his parents etc etc... And yet, he didn't blow his top because he did heed the warnings: he could turn out like Vader. Anakin had these same warnings and for a much longer time, and yet, he consciously chose to follow the evil Sith he just turned in... It's all pretty f***ed up. And Anakin most of all.