Thor & Captain Marvel Vs. Wonder Woman & Orion

Started by Zeuodin12 pages

Originally posted by tideoftime
Read your other posts, but using this one for ease of response:

See, the problem is, it sounds like you are using the interpretation of Diana from 20+ years ago; she has become incrementally more durable over the years, and throughout this decade has been categorically described, by DC, as being on par with Captain Marvel and Superman (though obviously she doesn't have all of Supes other range of powers), and even her relative vulnerability to piercing/slashing attacks has been all but neutralized, even before Infinite Crisis. Not being dismissive of your opinion, as such, but it doesn really sound like you aren't up on Diana (or confuse the nature of most of her stories/settings, as they are often not as much about stomping ass, with her standing in the DC universe).

Zeuodin: I am aware of Orion's abilities, and was giving Billy the benefit of the doubt by comparison, as a median point to bring up Orion's energy attacks, which Billy has none to compare with. Also, while Diana has *circumstantially* been in situations where she has demonstrated "out-of-character" abilities (she just in recent issues had Zeus' power of god-lightening shooting from the Aegis bracers), that is not at all the norm for her character; her speed, strength, stamina, and combat skills, however, are, and I wanted to stay focused on the consistancies, rather than the exceptions, which only feed fanbois delusions further (even the WW fanbois, who are as bad as any others'😉.

when debating you have to call out every power Wonder Woman has. It's that simple. Because Thor fan boys will call out God blast and soul sucks and shit he almost never does. also, Orion has fought Superman hand to hand a few times and they always stalemate. He is Superman's Physical Equal.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ah, ok. I thought you were referring to him after he initially slapped around the jla.

I still don't see why you would use Supes getting hit when he allowed it. Do you think WW could fare better against the same blow?

None of these showings prove she is as strong as Superman/Thor/Cm/Orion. This just shows off how formidable she can be.

Besting a daxamite also doesn't mean anything in regards to the characters in this thread.

Her higher strength showings still don't put her on par with Thor or Marvel. She has good feats but can't trade blows with any of these characters. That's the point I made and you are trying your hardest to dance around that simple obvious truth.

I think you are exaggerating again. When did Orion contain a universal blast?


She traded blows with Konvict in armored Form but she can't trade blows with CM or Thor? What the heck? She already stalemated CM in war of the Gods. She beat Herculese who give his strength to CM. So yes she is as strong as any of the others. Stop dancing around the issue. She also traded blows with Superman Merged with Doomsday. Orion contained the quantum bomb which was going to destroy the entire universe. Oh and Superman allowing konvict to hit him doesn't change his durability or Konvicts strength? Superman allows bullets and buses to hit him all the time. they don't phase him. Konvict was just that strong. And Diana Stood up to him for a time in his ARMORED stronger more durable form all by herself.

It is true Wony has had a bump on how she is portrayed these days. She definitely seems much stronger and a bit more durable. Out of the four, it's Captain Marvel that hasn't had that many great showings of late. He gets my respect still because it has been stated many times that he is Clark's equal. (or almost equal) When it comes to raw strength, Thor and Orion seem to have the slight upperhand over the other two. When it comes to raw power, it is really hard to measure. Again I believe Thor and Orion take the cake here as well. Between those two, it's a toss up. Astro force has done some great showings, but Thor seems to have a near limitless well of "godly" force. Hard to pick a winner.

Originally posted by Zeuodin
when debating you have to call out every power Wonder Woman has. It's that simple. Because Thor fan boys will call out God blast and soul sucks and shit he almost never does. also, Orion has fought Superman hand to hand a few times and they always stalemate. He is Superman's Physical Equal.

Yeah... I understand what you're saying...

It's unfortunate that the story-based exceptions and marginal abilities have to be employed when debating with certain people about fictions like this; it just about sucks the magic out of the setting.

I'm just a sucker for reasonable debate and such... more fool me... 😉

So far, you do seem to be the most reasonable person posting around here, though quan seems to be not too bad, himself.

I do agree, however, that Orion has the most general power out of those here; Thor has the most consistant assault power/aggression (I know - debatable); Wonder Woman has the superior combat skills; and Captain Marvel is near as tough as they come, with a marginal edge in over-all physical ability to the others (even if each beats him in a particular category).

Originally posted by Zeuodin
when debating you have to call out every power Wonder Woman has. It's that simple. Because Thor fan boys will call out God blast and soul sucks and shit he almost never does. also, Orion has fought Superman hand to hand a few times and they always stalemate. He is Superman's Physical Equal.
Supes was described as a physical peer to Ds not Orion. Orion relies on his anger and his powers against Superman. If they just trade blows then it's Superman's fight.

Thor doesn't even need either of these powerful attacks. His hammer will more than do the job.

No, I don't think she can. If she just traded blows with Konvikt she'd lose. Thor has went rounds with Mangog, Durok, the Surfer, and the Hulk just to name a few.

The guy's a physical specimen and the Hulk hasn't been able to ko him yet. They have fought for hours and Hulk continually is getting stronger yet he can't beat Thor. WW's screwed.

When? Is this from cosmic odyssey?

Supes probably wouldn't have been ko'd had he been fighting him. If WW laid her chin out for him to smash she'd be out longer than Superman.

Supes ko'd her momentarily and easily snapped her wrist. If either Thor or Marvel go all out she isn't going to take much.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Yeah... I understand what you're saying...

It's unfortunate that the story-based exceptions and marginal abilities have to be employed when debating with certain people about fictions like this; it just about sucks the magic out of the setting.

I'm just a sucker for reasonable debate and such... more fool me... 😉

So far, you do seem to be the most reasonable person posting around here, though quan seems to be not too bad, himself.

I do agree, however, that Orion has the most general power out of those here; Thor has the most consistant assault power/aggression (I know - debatable); Wonder Woman has the superior combat skills; and Captain Marvel is near as tough as they come, with a marginal edge in over-all physical ability to the others (even if each beats him in a particular category).


The way I see it. CM is the most durable out of the bunch. No one on the field can take punishment like CM. He can even instantly heal from Fatal injuries. Thor is the most versatile on the field and hits the hardest. No one is hitting harder than That hammer. Orion is the strongest as he is Superman's exact physical equal and he has the most powerful energy blast. He can one shot superman. No one else here can do that. Wonder Woman is the most skilled and the fastest, and has defense no one can break and two one shot weapons. While being the least durable of the 4. Not by much.

Given the evenness of the playing field, one can only come up with a stalemate.

Quanchi is a retard.

Originally posted by Zeuodin
The way I see it. CM is the most durable out of the bunch. No one on the field can take punishment like CM. He can even instantly heal from Fatal injuries. Thor is the most versatile on the field and hits the hardest. No one is hitting harder than That hammer. Orion is the strongest as he is Superman's exact physical equal and he has the most powerful energy blast. He can one shot superman. No one else here can do that. Wonder Woman is the most skilled and the fastest, and has defense no one can break and two one shot weapons. While being the least durable of the 4. Not by much.

Given the evenness of the playing field, one can only come up with a stalemate.

Agree

Can I pat myself on the back here since i started this post? Muahahahahaha... Man ya'll can debate for hours on end. Each giving good insight. Quanch though is an aggressive poster. =P no fault in that. (shows some passion) Hehehe....

Originally posted by quanchi112
Supes was described as a physical peer to Ds not Orion. Orion relies on his anger and his powers against Superman. If they just trade blows then it's Superman's fight.

Thor doesn't even need either of these powerful attacks. His hammer will more than do the job.

No, I don't think she can. If she just traded blows with Konvikt she'd lose. Thor has went rounds with Mangog, Durok, the Surfer, and the Hulk just to name a few.

The guy's a physical specimen and the Hulk hasn't been able to ko him yet. They have fought for hours and Hulk continually is getting stronger yet he can't beat Thor. WW's screwed.

When? Is this from cosmic odyssey?

Supes probably wouldn't have been ko'd had he been fighting him. If WW laid her chin out for him to smash she'd be out longer than Superman.

Supes ko'd her momentarily and easily snapped her wrist. If either Thor or Marvel go all out she isn't going to take much.

Just aweful tactic. You know the examples and you refute them with what? nothing. Orion is the one shown to fight Superman blow for blow. Superman is not a peer of DS in strength. Even if he was a peer, peer does not mean equal. It was STATED AND shown in Superman confidential and DOTNG that Orion was the physical equal of Superman. Why are you arguing against what was Shown on panel?

And what do you mean if she just traded blows with Konvict She'd lose? She did trade blows with Konvict. She didn't use any superspeed. Any shields. any tiaras. That is exactly what she did. And she stalemated him in his armored form and then she was the one who knocked the wind out of him. Why are you directly arguing against what was shown on panel? You are giving an opinon of what would have happened as if these fights hadn't already taken place? konvict was also getting more powerful and guess what? He couldn't KO Wonder Woman. The Superman Doomsday couldn't Ko wonder woman either. The only time we see wonder woman Ko'd is by trans tiered or skyfather level beings or when she's not fighting back.

Orion contained universal busting energy in the new gods book. gessh it's difficult to contain my composure when arguing with you. Sometimes I just want to keep ignoring you like I've been doing.

Originally posted by Konton
Quanchi is a retard.

I'm banging my head against my desk debating with him. He won't refute my comments with comics. He just gives these opinions of what could have happened and what might have happened and ignores what did happen when it doesn't suit him.

He likes to use the word "peer" for the basis of his arguments.
A sign of preconceived notions and favoritism.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Supes ko'd her momentarily and easily snapped her wrist. If either Thor or Marvel go all out she isn't going to take much.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Diana was holding back (as stated by her directly in the fight) as she wasn't wanting to harm Clark, but help him; you are also oblivious to the fact that, as a point of story/demonstration, Supes beating on her was to demonstrate to the reader how durable and resistant she had become over the years. Once she realized that she couldn't hold back anymore, as Supes would eventually kill her and she couldn't get the lasso on him (again -- a point of literary drama -- once she stunned him at the end of the Wyoming portion of the fight, she could have got the lasso on him, but that would not have been dramatic to the story), she started fighting back in earnest. Diana is perfectly capable of taking blows from Superman, Thor, Captain Marvel, and the like. Now, does she possess some of the other qualities of invulnerability that Superman has? No. She can be harmed by poisons (though she recovers very quickly -- when poisoned by full on cyanide in B&B #7, she was only slowed down, and recovered from it quickly), is not as resistant to radiation or electricity (though she is still very resistant and recovers fast) and can't hold her breath as long (though much longer than you might think -- 15-20 minutes casually, or upwards of an hour under duress, which is something she could do even Pre-Crisis).

Alrighty people, Happy Thanksgiving.

I'm out for the night...

Originally posted by tideoftime
You are completely ignoring the fact that Diana was holding back (as stated by her directly in the fight) as she wasn't wanting to harm Clark, but help him; you are also oblivious to the fact that, as a point of story/demonstration, Supes beating on her was to demonstrate to the reader how durable and resistant she had become over the years. Once she realized that she couldn't hold back anymore, as Supes would eventually kill her and she couldn't get the lasso on him (again -- a point of literary drama -- once she stunned him at the end of the Wyoming portion of the fight, she could have got the lasso on him, but that would not have been dramatic to the story). Diana is perfectly capable of taking blows from Superman, Thor, Captain Marvel, and the like. Now, does she possess some of the other qualities of invulnerability that Superman has? No. She can be harmed by poisons (though she recovers very quickly -- when poisoned by full on cyanide in B&B #7, she was only slowed down, and recovered from it quickly), is not as resistant to radiation or electricity (though she is still very resistant and recovers fast) and can't hold her breath as long (though much longer than you might think -- 15-20 minutes casually, or upwards of an hour under duress, which is something she could do even Pre-Crisis).

Alrighty people, Happy Thanksgiving.

I'm out for the night...

Wait, did you notice how he says Superman wasn't fighting Konvict and he uses that as a reason why Konvict was able to KO superman as to lessen Diana fighting Convict as a feat, then he turns around and says Diana's wrist broke all in the same breath while it's a direct comparison to Superman and Konvict since She wasn't fighting Superman back?

Originally posted by Zeuodin
The way I see it. CM is the most durable out of the bunch. No one on the field can take punishment like CM. He can even instantly heal from Fatal injuries. Thor is the most versatile on the field and hits the hardest. No one is hitting harder than That hammer. Orion is the strongest as he is Superman's exact physical equal and he has the most powerful energy blast. He can one shot superman. No one else here can do that. Wonder Woman is the most skilled and the fastest, and has defense no one can break and two one shot weapons. While being the least durable of the 4. Not by much.

Given the evenness of the playing field, one can only come up with a stalemate.

I'm gonna have to go with Orion and Thor as mor durable.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I'm gonna have to go with Orion and Thor as mor durable.

Orion heals the fastest from None Life Threating wounds. Mother box constatly heals New Gods in a fight. if they get seriously hurt they have to rest and take a while to heal them. But CM heals instantly from Life threatening wounds. he also has the stamina of atlas. Far more durable than the others IMO. Thor is durable to some extent. But not more than CM.

Originally posted by tideoftime
You are completely ignoring the fact that Diana was holding back (as stated by her directly in the fight) as she wasn't wanting to harm Clark, but help him; you are also oblivious to the fact that, as a point of story/demonstration, Supes beating on her was to demonstrate to the reader how durable and resistant she had become over the years. Once she realized that she couldn't hold back anymore, as Supes would eventually kill her and she couldn't get the lasso on him (again -- a point of literary drama -- once she stunned him at the end of the Wyoming portion of the fight, she could have got the lasso on him, but that would not have been dramatic to the story), she started fighting back in earnest. Diana is perfectly capable of taking blows from Superman, Thor, Captain Marvel, and the like. Now, does she possess some of the other qualities of invulnerability that Superman has? No. She can be harmed by poisons (though she recovers very quickly -- when poisoned by full on cyanide in B&B #7, she was only slowed down, and recovered from it quickly), is not as resistant to radiation or electricity (though she is still very resistant and recovers fast) and can't hold her breath as long (though much longer than you might think -- 15-20 minutes casually, or upwards of an hour under duress, which is something she could do even Pre-Crisis).

Alrighty people, Happy Thanksgiving.

I'm out for the night...

Actually she's very resistant to electricty. Check out her respect thread. And she's also resistant to radiation. They were in the nakedness of space nearly next to the sun. That's all kinds of radiation from the sun and what ever is bouncing around in space.

Originally posted by Konton
Quanchi is a retard.
If you want to get involved in this argument then do so. Your taunts/insults are awfully childish.
Originally posted by Zeuodin
Just aweful tactic. You know the examples and you refute them with what? nothing. Orion is the one shown to fight Superman blow for blow. Superman is not a peer of DS in strength. Even if he was a peer, peer does not mean equal. It was STATED AND shown in Superman confidential and DOTNG that Orion was the physical equal of Superman. Why are you arguing against what was Shown on panel?

And what do you mean if she just traded blows with Konvict She'd lose? She did trade blows with Konvict. She didn't use any superspeed. Any shields. any tiaras. That is exactly what she did. And she stalemated him in his armored form and then she was the one who knocked the wind out of him. Why are you directly arguing against what was shown on panel? You are giving an opinon of what would have happened as if these fights hadn't already taken place? konvict was also getting more powerful and guess what? He couldn't KO Wonder Woman. The Superman Doomsday couldn't Ko wonder woman either. The only time we see wonder woman Ko'd is by trans tiered or skyfather level beings or when she's not fighting back.

Orion contained universal busting energy in the new gods book. gessh it's difficult to contain my composure when arguing with you. Sometimes I just want to keep ignoring you like I've been doing.

Because in confidential that was ages ago as opposed to Supes doing much better in that regard. In death of the new gods Supes was described as Ds's physical peer not Orion. I think Supes is a lot more formidable physically than Ds. His showings and Ds's submission when his omegas failed while his total and complete reliance on this against Superman more than proves it.

She was ko'd by Superman in issue 219. Re entry woke her back up.

Which new gods book? You have a habit of exaggerating and I think this is another example. Please be specific.

Originally posted by Konton
He likes to use the word "peer" for the basis of his arguments.
A sign of preconceived notions and favoritism.
Because that is un undebatable fact. She has the reflexes and the skills to fight characters more powerful than her. Strength wise she doesn't cut the mustard. The titans in this thread have her number.

Originally posted by tideoftime
You are completely ignoring the fact that Diana was holding back (as stated by her directly in the fight) as she wasn't wanting to harm Clark, but help him; you are also oblivious to the fact that, as a point of story/demonstration, Supes beating on her was to demonstrate to the reader how durable and resistant she had become over the years. Once she realized that she couldn't hold back anymore, as Supes would eventually kill her and she couldn't get the lasso on him (again -- a point of literary drama -- once she stunned him at the end of the Wyoming portion of the fight, she could have got the lasso on him, but that would not have been dramatic to the story), she started fighting back in earnest. Diana is perfectly capable of taking blows from Superman, Thor, Captain Marvel, and the like. Now, does she possess some of the other qualities of invulnerability that Superman has? No. She can be harmed by poisons (though she recovers very quickly -- when poisoned by full on cyanide in B&B #7, she was only slowed down, and recovered from it quickly), is not as resistant to radiation or electricity (though she is still very resistant and recovers fast) and can't hold her breath as long (though much longer than you might think -- 15-20 minutes casually, or upwards of an hour under duress, which is something she could do even Pre-Crisis).

Alrighty people, Happy Thanksgiving.

I'm out for the night...

Supes also wasn't in his right state of mind. The point is she couldn't take his blows for very long and was already ko'd once. She used a cheapshot to get back into the fight and held back with her kicks right after she rang his ears and good.

Supes won't be staring around at trees in a forum fight looking for Diana nor will Thor or Marvel.

Originally posted by Zeuodin
Orion heals the fastest from None Life Threating wounds. Mother box constatly heals New Gods in a fight. if they get seriously hurt they have to rest and take a while to heal them. But CM heals instantly from Life threatening wounds. he also has the stamina of atlas. Far more durable than the others IMO. Thor is durable to some extent. But not more than CM.

It's true healing ability is an important part of durabilty. However Thor seems to be the most durable in terms of being able to pierce or injure each one externally. Unless you count that digital comic recently in which Wolverine scratched Thor's outer surface. Awful writing though if you read it in it's entirety.

Originally posted by Konton
Quanchi is a retard.

No need for that...

Originally posted by Zeuodin
Actually she's very resistant to electricty. Check out her respect thread. And she's also resistant to radiation. They were in the nakedness of space nearly next to the sun. That's all kinds of radiation from the sun and what ever is bouncing around in space.

(Hadn't closed the window yet)

Ummm... that's what I said. She *is* resistant to those things, just not as resistant as Superman. Did you maybe misread my post?