Ninjitsu vs Kung fu

Lyoto is primarily a standup fighter. He has like only two submission victories in his whole career. Most of his wins come from him outpointing his opponents while standing and getting decisions. Karate is without a doubt his primary fighting style though he does incorporate muay thai, BJJ,sumo etc.

The traditional martial arts arent in themselves ineffective in the sense that a properly trained person in one of them is likely to beat up a regular joe with no training. ITs in the MMA world where cross training is now the norm that they can no longer stand alone.

Well, we somewhat agree to a extent. Against your average untrained joe, yeah, it should in theory give you an edge. My thought is a great pure karate practitioner shouldnt beat a averate mma fighter.

just look at machida's stand up fighting... and you can see it's not just karate. hell, look at his punches. those are more boxing/muay thai punches. not the near-the-waist reverse fist karate punch style.

lol at anyone judging mma fighters by their primary ma only. no one in mma is a "karate" man or a "sanshou" fighter or a "boxer" anymore. they are Mixed Martial artists. cung le isn't sanshou anymore. he may have started in kung fu, but the cung le we know now is a mixed martial artist, not just a sanshou expert. so judging just how effective sanshou is by judging how effective cung le is is a joke... coz however good cung le is, it's credit due to his mixed martial arts stats.

until i've actually seen a karate/kung fu/taekwondo expert dominate in a street fight, i will continue to doubt their effectiveness.

Originally posted by redhotrash
Well, we somewhat agree to a extent. Against your average untrained joe, yeah, it should in theory give you an edge. My thought is a great pure karate practitioner shouldnt beat a averate mma fighter.

I was never saying that, though.

Btw, here's Cung Le in a sanshou match

YouTube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWjh4HTiDBk

lol, we got very side tracked here, probably my fault. Iron Fist and Shang still take this home.

Originally posted by ColossusGrundy
ninjitsu is for stealth assassins. These guys came in to people's houses during the day and scouted out a way to sneak in and kill someone in their sleep later. It is not the dynamite fighting style hollywood says it is.

Kung Fu >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ninjitsu for hand-to-hand.

Which IRL is a pretty crappy fighting stlye IMO. I would take a wrestler over a traditional martial arts fighter any day.

Originally posted by Mindset
The arts themselves are not ineffective, it is the schools and teachers that water them down.

If you think Karate is ineffective look up Lyoto Machida, if you think Kung Fu(Sanda, Sanshou) is look up Cung le.

Yeah, Machida is a great fighter, but he Cross-Trains. Just like every other top fighter... Otherwise he would get stomped on the ground like all of the other guys who only train in a single area. Why do you think we don't see Gracie fighting anymore. A cornbread okie beat the hell out him, and if gracie had any sense would have gotten beaten with his own style, but he had to much pride to tap...

Originally posted by redhotrash
He uses jujitsu just as much as his karate, if not more. Only recently has he really been winning based on strikes. Also to be fair Lyoto isnt really the dominate fighter hes sometimes made out to be. Lot of decision wins, including a HIGHLY questionable one against a guy who's best years are behind him.

Originally posted by snyper1982
You talking about Ortiz? Machida won that fight pretty convincingly IMHO.

he is talking about mauricio shogun

i notice how most of you here think that the style got actually something to do with the fighting... well in some way it does but the thing is not what moves you know the thing is not if you deliver a karate punch or boxing punch or muay thai punch the key is the power behind that punch, if a person train himself to be faster stronger work on his reflex stamina and everything around it then it doesnt matter if its a karate or boxing or muay thai punch because its the power behind it, now of course technique is important but in almost every style you can find a good technique to increase your striking power you just have to train yourself to that point

i sayed earlier that kung fu isnt effective now let me explain myself properly, the potential of a kung fu fighter is individual if the kung fu fighter train himself with kung fu but also work on his basic aspects such as power speed and stamina he will be great regardless if its kung fu or something else but the thing is that in traditional kung fu the fighters didnt work much on there power and durability they focus the training more around energy chi speed and stamina but durability and strength is something the training lack, even bruce lee himself who started from wing chun said that any mediocre boxer will be able to beat a kung fu fighter and he said in his own words that kung fu masters are lazy and dont train there body enough thats why there durability is so low and they get knocked out very easily

now i hear in many webs and forums that martial artists get wracked in street fights so let me explain, first of all whats a martial artist in your eyes? take for example a guy that eats pizza all day long watch tv playing his PS3 or XBOX360 and then 3 times a week at best he is taking some 1 hour karate class and telling everyone he trains karate so do you consider this guy a martial artist? those people are delusional because they are not martial artists but they think they are and when they fight they think they know something when they actually dont so they lose, a well trained martial artist doesnt matter karate or boxing or muay thai or tae kuan do will just wreck any street fighter not because of the pretty moves but because of the power,stamina,reflex,durability,speed they develop during the training, most fighters are the guys you dont even know are training in something because they dont like to talk about it they are not cocky or a show off like most of the "karate kids" in your class they just minding there own business

Originally posted by snyper1982
Yeah, Machida is a great fighter, but he Cross-Trains. Just like every other top fighter... Otherwise he would get stomped on the ground like all of the other guys who only train in a single area. Why do you think we don't see Gracie fighting anymore. A cornbread okie beat the hell out him, and if gracie had any sense would have gotten beaten with his own style, but he had to much pride to tap...

Btw, Matt said he was dominating Royce because of his wrestling, although he did almost armbar him, which you are talking about.

Originally posted by valtiz
those people are delusional because they are not martial artists but they think they are and when they fight they think they know something when they actually dont so they lose, a well trained martial artist doesnt matter karate or boxing or muay thai or tae kuan do will just wreck any street fighter not because of the pretty moves but because of the power,stamina,reflex,durability,speed they develop during the training

You are a bit off. While physical conditioning is important you will find that the vast majority of time spent training with a good instructor focuses on technique. Skill alows you to react faster, think ahead, strike harder and faster and waste less energy.

Anyway what you say about lazy people is true too, the average "martial artist" spends just over 2hrs in the dojo each week and does next to no training at home. The vast majority of people who try the arts also quit within a year or two at most. In a McDojo this is of course time enough to get a black belt with a side order of fries. 😂

Originally posted by valtiz
he is talking about mauricio shogun

i notice how most of you here think that the style got actually something to do with the fighting... well in some way it does but the thing is not what moves you know the thing is not if you deliver a karate punch or boxing punch or muay thai punch the key is the power behind that punch, if a person train himself to be faster stronger work on his reflex stamina and everything around it then it doesnt matter if its a karate or boxing or muay thai punch because its the power behind it, now of course technique is important but in almost every style you can find a good technique to increase your striking power you just have to train yourself to that point

i sayed earlier that kung fu isnt effective now let me explain myself properly, the potential of a kung fu fighter is individual if the kung fu fighter train himself with kung fu but also work on his basic aspects such as power speed and stamina he will be great regardless if its kung fu or something else but the thing is that in traditional kung fu the fighters didnt work much on there power and durability they focus the training more around energy chi speed and stamina but durability and strength is something the training lack, even bruce lee himself who started from wing chun said that any mediocre boxer will be able to beat a kung fu fighter and he said in his own words that kung fu masters are lazy and dont train there body enough thats why there durability is so low and they get knocked out very easily

now i hear in many webs and forums that martial artists get wracked in street fights so let me explain, first of all whats a martial artist in your eyes? take for example a guy that eats pizza all day long watch tv playing his PS3 or XBOX360 and then 3 times a week at best he is taking some 1 hour karate class and telling everyone he trains karate so do you consider this guy a martial artist? those people are delusional because they are not martial artists but they think they are and when they fight they think they know something when they actually dont so they lose, a well trained martial artist doesnt matter karate or boxing or muay thai or tae kuan do will just wreck any street fighter not because of the pretty moves but because of the power,stamina,reflex,durability,speed they develop during the training, most fighters are the guys you dont even know are training in something because they dont like to talk about it they are not cocky or a show off like most of the "karate kids" in your class they just minding there own business

I haven't gotten a chance to watch that fight yet. Rua can be a great fighter, but he is just like Belfort, inconsistent(well at least as of late he is).

What I have read that Bruce Lee said was that someone who trained boxing and wrestling for a year could beat any master of traditional martial arts. I have not seen the actual quote though...Now regarding someone who Trains wrecking a street fight I don't know how much water that holds. I guess it mostly depends on the street fighter in question. Some people are just naturally good at fighting, even without training... I personally have never seen a person trained in a martial art, and I am talking real training not the people you describe, do all that well in street fighting, because martial arts just don't go over all that well when they get taken to the ground, which is EXACTLY what you see in the earlier UFC's. People with kung fu and karate training were routinely beaten by mediocre wrestler and brawlers.... Because most fights end up on the ground.

Originally posted by Mindset
We were talking about striking.

Btw, Matt said he was dominating Royce because of his wrestling, although he did almost armbar him, which you are talking about.

My point was that someone who cross trains holds a vast tactical advantage over someone who doesn't which is why MOST fights where someone who cross trains goes up against someone who doesn't end with the person cross training getting the W. All the top fighters cross train, period. Their base is not as important as the cross training. With that being said though, I will repeat from my earlier post, I would take a pure wreslter over a pure martial artist every time, as it has consistently shown to be a superior technique in a no holds bared fight.

Originally posted by snyper1982
I haven't gotten a chance to watch that fight yet. Rua can be a great fighter, but he is just like Belfort, inconsistent(well at least as of late he is).

What I have read that Bruce Lee said was that someone who trained boxing and wrestling for a year could beat any master of traditional martial arts. I have not seen the actual quote though...Now regarding someone who Trains wrecking a street fight I don't know how much water that holds. I guess it mostly depends on the street fighter in question. Some people are just naturally good at fighting, even without training... I personally have never seen a person trained in a martial art, and I am talking real training not the people you describe, do all that well in street fighting, because martial arts just don't go over all that well when they get taken to the ground, which is EXACTLY what you see in the earlier UFC's. People with kung fu and karate training were routinely beaten by mediocre wrestler and brawlers.... Because most fights end up on the ground.

and this is where the skills part enter... not no offence or anything but if you never saw those so called "martial artists" win a single street fight then i guess they arent much of a fighters in the first place and if you seen them doing pretty flashy moves it doesnt mean they are martial artists it just means they know acrobatics because a real martial artist is known not because of fleshy pretty moves but because of his skills ands if they get beat up that means they arent fighters and they didnt dedicate enough time to actually learn how to fight and this is the problem today with people who do martial arts they focus to much on having a 6 pack and doing back flips like jackie chan then actually learn how to fight

now my point is simple... if you as a martial artist train in karate or boxing or what ever style it doesnt matter but you train yourself to the art of movement, the art of power and self control, if a person will learn karate properly and he will train he will achieve a better speed, better reflex, better stamina durability and striking force then the average street fighter and when he fights your average bully he will just beat him up because the bully wont be even able to take him down, now i really dont want to sound or look cocky but me and my 2 friends are muay thai fighters and we were in a fight where we took down 7 people with very easy because we moved much faster then them and it took 1 strike to take them down and myself personally when someone was trying to take me down i was fast enough to knee him in the chin and ko him those are the basics of any martial artist the speed reflex and power to take out any ordinary person from the street and i am nothing special just a typical martial art practitioner

Styles vs styles get brought up when it's really about Batdevil vs Iron Chi. heh?

Originally posted by jasofisc
seriously like the dude jean clud van dam was portraying in blood sport.

Originally posted by SamZED
Yeah that's the guy. He says he's an awesome fighter and proves it with the movie. :/

Yup, according to Dux the movie is a true story

The secret underground MA trounaments are just another myth.

actually there are a lot of underground tournaments across the world and you will be amazed and surprised how many of them are there, in countries like Thailand and china there are even competitions where you can kill the opponent and i am serious because when its underground no one gives a crap hell even in bruce lee times there were underground fighting and this is where he fought the most he even once came home injured from one , ever since human kind rise people always wanted to see other fight to the death back then there were gladiators, knights tournaments and today since its illegal we got underground fighting

Originally posted by valtiz
actually there are a lot of underground tournaments across the world and you will be amazed and surprised how many of them are there, in countries like Thailand and china there are even competitions where you can kill the opponent and i am serious because when its underground no one gives a crap hell even in bruce lee times there were underground fighting and this is where he fought the most he even once came home injured from one , ever since human kind rise people always wanted to see other fight to the death back then there were gladiators, knights tournaments and today since its illegal we got underground fighting

You have read too many comics...