Bane vs Exar Kun

Started by Weltall5 pages
Originally posted by truejedi
Right there is your proof. It had to fall into those specifications, so Bane made the alterations to ensure that it did. Its THE SAME SENTENCE. They are simple cause and effect clauses that mean one is a result of the requirement of the other.

While I do see where you're coming from and can definitely agree that it might imply as much, that the action met the need does not mean that it can be identified as the need. As I said, all that's stated was that it was an action taken as an assurance, something that not only meets a need but often goes beyond that need. That the subatomic alterations met the need wasn't in question, but that it was absolutely required for the need to be met was. And the fact remains that the text does not present any evidence that would suggest that the action taken to meet the need was in itself absolutely required.

As an example, "Darth Sexy had to die, and Nephys [spelling?] had been planting a number of elaborate traps around Sexy's bedroom to ensure that he would meet his maker."

A need is presented (Darth Sexy has to die), a solution is presented (the elaborate traps Exodus was planting around Sexy's bedroom), but that doesn't mean that the elaborate traps were absolutely necessary and that Exodus couldn't simply have hired Kadesh to follow Darth Sexy to his apartment late at night and throttle the life out of him using nothing but his bare hands.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That has nothing to do with efficiency. The subatomic scale has absolutely no connection to a battle between to people. This is just a bad argument.

I think it'd be more accurate to label the [implied] Strawman a bad argument, and under normal circumstances I would probably accuse you of being dishonest however in this case it's pretty clear that the point just flew way over your head.

I'll take you through it again.

First, let's clear up the terminology.

As far as how I have been using the term: control over the Force measures the degree to which a Force User can direct and focus the Force energies at his disposal. This is a base ability that a Force User would call upon in any situation or with any technique. It represents a Force User's general prowess over the Force energies at a his/her disposal. It is not technique specific. This is all described in the numerous Star Wars Role Playing Game Sourcebooks, and is statistically represented by the correlation between the different displays of control by individual Force users over a variety of techniques.

Now on to Bane's ability to manipulate Force energies on a subatomic level; being able to generate Force energies on a scale smaller than the upper spacial limit of your power demonstrates a certain level of control in that it displays the ability to reduce the spacial effects of the Force energies at your command at will. The smaller the scale in which this can be achieved in relation to the upper spacial limit of your power, the greater the required control over the Force. For Bane to be able to do this on a completely unprecedented lower scale while having also demonstrated a level of higher spacial power on par with that of any other in the mythos demonstrates a completely unprecedented level of control.

This is a base ability that directly determines how efficiently he would be at applying his full level of power within the confines of a small scale battle situation.

By all available evidence, he would be more effective at doing this than any other character in the mythos.

That only happened because he was fighting the Exile. Against anyone else he would have had no problem. He was able to use his powers against EACH INDIVIDUAL Jedi when he decimated the Order. The fact that he did it to hundreds in succession is only more evidence that he could do it to a single person.

Again, you completely missed the point; I wasn't arguing against the idea that he'd be able to replicate a feat of the same level of Force Energy Density (FED) on a smaller scale, rather, I was questioning the extent to which he could increase that FED on a smaller scale without any notable established level of control over the Force.

Control on the sub-atomic level is absolutely worthless in a fight. The scale difference between controlling the minuscule amount of power necessary to move atoms and the power necessary to be use able in an actual fight is so great that no comparison should be made.

It demonstrates a capacity for reducing the spacial effects of Force energies which is a demonstration of control, a base ability that can be applied in any situation or with any technique.

Furthermore, Zannah, who has not shown herself to be anywhere near as powerful as the Bane you're fantasizing about, what effectively a match for him during their final battle.

The Bane I've been fantasizing about is exactly as he's been established to be by the source material. He has been proven to possess the level of power and control over the Force that I credit him with. That Zannah hasn't been displayed to be as powerful as [the Bane I've been fantasizing about = Bane] outside of the battle between the two, and then using Bane's performance in that battle to attempt to discredit his already established level of ability whilst ignoring what that battle suggests about Zannah's own level of ability whilst also going by an "absence of proof = proof of absence" mentality is what you'd call a "bad argument".

It's entirely possible that she won their duel after he attempted to transfer his life essence and that she just absorbed some of his traits. If it had been Bane, why would he have lied afterwards?

Pointless speculation + misdirective strategies. Ignoring....

Without that technique, Zannah without a doubt defeated Bane. Could you argue she is more powerful than Exar?

I would, and have [effectively].

Nebaris, you're full of shit. Prove me wrong(see what I did thurr)>

And it's pretty obvious that Bane got into Zannah's body unless you're contesting that a match of wills somehow favors Zannah. Not to mention, her left hand was twitching afterwards, something that affected Bane.

The only way I see Zannah being Zannah if the ritual somehow failed while Bane was in her body. And Bane had no reason to scare the hell out of Cognus telling her that it was him.

Who is going to want to serve under a master who can transfer themselves into your body?

Maybe?

You're mocking Glentract right? 😄

"And Bane had no reason to scare the hell out of Cognus telling her that it was him.

Who is going to want to serve under a master who can transfer themselves into your body?"

That's a good point.

That post is so full of shit I'm not even going to bother with a drawn out response to it. Coming up with this theory about Force energy density and a bunch of other crap is pretty weak.

Lets get real here. Bane was beaten in his fight with Zannah. If she can take Bane down he obviously isn't as good as some people seem to think. Nothing Bane did is crazy impressive. Even if he did have this amazing ability to control ridiculous levels of Force energy on a really small scale he still was unable to defeat Zannah, who has not shown herself to be especially powerful.

Another instance of this is the Duel on Tython. Bane and Zannah defeated five Jedi but just barely were successful. Bane would have been pwned if he had been on his own. Sidious was able to dominate three Jedi in seconds. Vader defeated seven Jedi on his own while still getting used to his suit. Exar's only equal in the entire Order was Ulic. Jacen took on what, four Jedi at once, including Katarn. Bane is not all he is being cracked up to be. Hell Revan kill two Tarentatek's by himself and those normally took a small of group of Jedi to bring down.

Bane is an awesome character and he is really, really strong, but there are plenty of guys who are better than him.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That post is so full of shit I'm not even going to bother with a drawn out response to it. Coming up with this theory about Force energy density and a bunch of other crap is pretty weak.

Lets get real here. Bane was beaten in his fight with Zannah. If she can take Bane down he obviously isn't as good as some people seem to think. Nothing Bane did is crazy impressive. Even if he did have this amazing ability to control ridiculous levels of Force energy on a really small scale he still was unable to defeat Zannah, who has not shown herself to be especially powerful.


Ok even I'm going to have to disagree with this nonsense. Bane DEFINITELY showed some very impressive feats and new force techniques. He's both a saber and force beast. Zannah is NOT better than him, but her talents in Sith sorcery are. In fact, I don't think we've ever seen sith sorcery in the entire mythos on the level of what Zannah conjured.

Another instance of this is the Duel on Tython. Bane and Zannah defeated five Jedi but just barely were successful. Bane would have been pwned if he had been on his own. Sidious was able to dominate three Jedi in seconds. Vader defeated seven Jedi on his own while still getting used to his suit. Exar's only equal in the entire Order was Ulic. Jacen took on what, four Jedi at once, including Katarn. Bane is not all he is being cracked up to be. Hell Revan kill two Tarentatek's by himself and those normally took a small of group of Jedi to bring down.

Yea its 5 jedi masters against 2, whats your point? None of what you just posted possesses any kind of significance.

Bane is an awesome character and he is really, really strong, but there are plenty of guys who are better than him.

Plenty? Hardly. Maybe a few at best.

Bane is pretty uber... He manages to stand in a downpour and block all incoming drops with his Saber. Lame and fanficky but powerful as hell.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That post is so full of shit I'm not even going to bother with a drawn out response to it. Coming up with this theory about Force energy density and a bunch of other crap is pretty weak.

I'll put it into clearer terms. Nihilus can take out 100 jedi with one attack. I was not questioning whether or not he could take out one lone Jedi, as all it would require is the same FDE and no more total FE. I was questioning how much of the total FE he used on all 100 Jedi would he be capable of on just one Jedi. In other words, how much higher his FDE could be on a smaller scale. Bane, by all available evidence, has a far greater control over the Force than anybody else in the mythos, specifically how capable he is at applying his power on a smaller scale, so it's likely that his FDE on a smaller scale with respect to his FD (maximum scale) would be astronomically higher than that of anybody else. Understand?

Lets get real here. Bane was beaten in his fight with Zannah. If she can take Bane down he obviously isn't as good as some people seem to think.

Prove it.

Nothing Bane did is crazy impressive.

Being able to absorb a planetary level of energy, store it, protect himself internally from it, and then redirect it across an entire planet is one of the mightiest feats we've yet seen in the SW mythos, and miles in both control and power beyond anything Exar Kun has demonstrated. Now, I'm not going to say you're wrong as you're using a relative term but within the confines of this thread, it's an abnormally impressive feat that Exar Kun hasn't come close to matching.

Even if he did have this amazing ability to control ridiculous levels of Force energy on a really small scale he still was unable to defeat Zannah, who has not shown herself to be especially powerful.

Again, you are:

A) Ignoring what Zannah's performance against Bane states about her general level of ability, and forming an evaluation of her ability off of incomplete evidence.

B) Relying on the idea that absence of proof = proof of absence.

And attempting to use those two lines of reasoning to discredit what has already been established about Bane.

Another instance of this is the Duel on Tython. Bane and Zannah defeated five Jedi but just barely were successful. Bane would have been pwned if he had been on his own. Sidious was able to dominate three Jedi in seconds. Vader defeated seven Jedi on his own while still getting used to his suit. Exar's only equal in the entire Order was Ulic. Jacen took on what, four Jedi at once, including Katarn. Bane is not all he is being cracked up to be. Hell Revan kill two Tarentatek's by himself and those normally took a small of group of Jedi to bring down.

This would be a perfectly valid point if we were able to assume a fixed value for the strength of any given "Jedi" and that we could numerically compare them as such, and ignore the fact that Jedi vary in ability and that the only Jedi in the duel on Tython that Bane was shown to have had difficulty with haven't shown any real limitations that would necessarily discredit Bane with respect to the comparisons you just made. Let's also ignore the fact that Bane was displayed as being easily more than a match for any single one of the Jedi and that it's shown that they quite clearly wouldn't have been a threat without Worror's Battle Meditation (in his opening exchanges with both Raskta and Farfalla it's explicitly stated that they wouldn't have survived without the assistance of Worror's Battle Meditation). Let's also ignore the fact that they were described as some of the most powerful jedi of the era; an era of the most martial Jedi Order there's ever been.

Bane is an awesome character and he is really, really strong, but there are plenty of guys who are better than him.

Even if that were the case Exar Kun most certainly wouldn't be one of them.

In fact, I'd argue that Bane is the superior of the two in just about any and every general area. His demonstrated power (planetary), control (subatomic), and knowledge of the Force (all of Sadow's via Freedon Nadd's holocron, all of Revan's knowledge, now all of Andeddu's knowledge) is far greater, he's displayed far greater intelligence (stated to be able to manipulate individuals, organisations and entire governments, he was a visionary that could formulate plans that would come to fruition decades later in a controlled manner, and he set up the complex network of spies and informants that Sidious would eventually use directly to take down the Jedi Order, among many other things), he's displayed a greater learning rate (developing a planetary level of power in a matter of months), more talent with a lightsaber (familiarising himself with the hundreds of thousands if not millions of moves and sequences of the double bladed lightsaber and formulating his own counter measures against each one in, again, a matter of months).

Realistically speaking, it's not even close.

amulets make kun pretty much invincible, to whoever said they wouldn't make that big a difference in the fight.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Ok even I'm going to have to disagree with this nonsense. Bane DEFINITELY showed some very impressive feats and new force techniques. He's both a saber and force beast. Zannah is NOT better than him, but her talents in Sith sorcery are. In fact, I don't think we've ever seen sith sorcery in the entire mythos on the level of what Zannah conjured.

If her talens in Sith sorcery allow her to defeat Bane, which it effectively did, then how can you say she is not better?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yea its 5 jedi masters against 2, whats your point? None of what you just posted possesses any kind of significance.

Vader was seven Jedi against one Sith. Yet he was able to win relatively unscathed compared to Bane's condition. Basically what I'm saying by this is that it's pretty disappointing Bane and Zannah came so close to being defeat by just five Jedi, two of which were not Masters.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Plenty? Hardly. Maybe a few at best.

I guess we are back to defining terms. I think of plenty as maybe five or more. Would you disagree with that?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
If her talens in Sith sorcery allow her to defeat Bane, which it effectively did, then how can you say she is not better?

Because Bane had no innate ability for sith sorcery, and he [b]still
resisted most of it. She is superior in sith sorcery but overall force abilities? Not quite.

Vader was seven Jedi against one Sith. Yet he was able to win relatively unscathed compared to Bane's condition. Basically what I'm saying by this is that it's pretty disappointing Bane and Zannah came so close to being defeat by just five Jedi, two of which were not Masters.

Prove the jedi Vader fought were in any way powerful.

I guess we are back to defining terms. I think of plenty as maybe five or more. Would you disagree with that? [/B]

Luke, Sidious, possibly Muur/Ragnos/Nadd/Jacen/Revan.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Because Bane had no innate ability for sith sorcery, and he [b]still resisted most of it. She is superior in sith sorcery but overall force abilities? Not quite. [/B]

Are you saying she was not able to defeat Bane because it certainly looked like Bane was pretty toast if it hadn't been for the essence transfer technique.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Prove the jedi Vader fought were in any way powerful.

I could say the same for the Jedi that Bane and Zannah fought. We could just take into account that they lived during the "Golden Age."

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Luke, Sidious, possibly Muur/Ragnos/Nadd/Jacen/Revan.

So aren't you argeeing with me? I think I might add Yoda and Durron to that list as well, as well as Nyax and Raynar when part of the Killicks. Murr? Who is that?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Are you saying she was not able to defeat Bane because it certainly looked like Bane was pretty toast if it hadn't been for the essence transfer technique.

Bane seemed to be winning the entire duel. Only when she channeled the power of Ambria into that spell did she gain the upper hand. And the essence transfer was still part of the duel.

I could say the same for the Jedi that Bane and Zannah fought. We could just take into account that they lived during the "Golden Age."

Two of the Jedi Bane fought were the best the order had to offer at that point in time. The one's Vader fought were not nealry as proficent.

So aren't you argeeing with me? I think I might add Yoda and Durron to that list as well, as well as Nyax and Raynar when part of the Killicks.

Nyax? RAYNAR!?!?! Are you crazy. Neither of those two are near Bane in power or mastery of the force.
Murr? Who is that?

Karness Muur. He was one of the founders of the sith order. He seems to be quite powerful.

*Muur
And the talisman he created

Muur definitely seems like a powerhouse.

Yeah, which brings up the question just how powerful was Ajunta Pall?

probably even more powerful

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Prove the jedi Vader fought were in any way powerful.

Yeah lets go by your own words, "They are jedi masters so they MUST be uber".

Your own words murdered you.

Originally posted by ares834
Bane seemed to be winning the entire duel. Only when she channeled the power of Ambria into that spell did she gain the upper hand. And the essence transfer was still part of the duel.

It is just as much as Zannah's sorcery.

Originally posted by ares834
Two of the Jedi Bane fought were the best the order had to offer at that point in time. The one's Vader fought were not nealry as proficent.

Yet he still defeated seven by himself as opposed to Bane who with Zannah, who is effectively his equal, could not defeat five. Also, keep in mind that the best Jedi were actually killed during the Thought Bomb.

Originally posted by ares834
Nyax? RAYNAR!?!?! Are you crazy. Neither of those two are near Bane in power or mastery of the force.

Nyax - He was basically unbeatable, even for Luke, in a duel. The guy had six freakin lightsabers. It's seriously gay, but the guy was really powerful. Read up on when he was killed by Luke, Mara, and Tahiri.

Raynar - I'm not referring to him on his own. I'm talking about when he was in control of the Killicks. At that point he did some crazy powerful things. Raynar could impose his will on others to the point even Luke felt it's influence. If I remember correctly, he was able to bend turbolaser blasts away from his ship. Raynar even gave Luke a run for his money in their fight.

Originally posted by ares834
Karness Muur. He was one of the founders of the sith order. He seems to be quite powerful.

Okay thanks.