Reality Manipulation Vs Molecule Manipulation

Originally posted by operator616
Is that so? Tell me how molecular manipulation can affect a universe on a fundamental level? You realize that the spatial dimensions aren't made of molecules or atoms or quarks or any quantized units? Space is continuous while matter is discrete made up of individual particles.

How could a molecular manipulator just "wish" something to be a reality? for instance, to take Legion's feat as an example, how could a molecular manipulator -- who has absolute no control over space/time -- warp the universe into a box?

Hint: He can't.

I'm glad that we agree that's the same power with different names.

PS: You are trying to correlate real life science with comic books... That's a battle lost in advance.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This is all that matters.

On topic: reality warping is better.

Lots of good examples in here. A matter manipulator can indeed turn you into glass, or water.

A reality warper would turn you into a fav childhood memory, or the letter 'b', or the colour indigo.....

Matter Manipulation = manipulation of matter

Molecule Manipulation = manipulation of all matter & all energy = Reality Manipulation

That's Marvel definition so far.

Both can transform an apple into an orange. Both can create apples and oranges out of thin air (visually speaking: nothing)
The difference is that molecule manipulators always need molecules to work with. If there aren't even air molecules around, then they won't be able o create something. Reality warpers don't care about stuff like that. They create something out of the absolute nothing.

*sigh*

More bullshit...

Reality Manipulators cannot manipulate reality if there is nothing too.

So again:

Reality Manipulation = Molecule Manipulation.

Here is Mad Jim Jaspers, whom cannot manipulate reality, because there is no matter or energy to manipulate:

"The sculptor of reality has run out of his clay."

Molecular manippers can turn everyone on the planet into an arsehead.

Reality manipulators can make it rain upwards and make everyone poop out of their peehole.

Originally posted by RealityWarper

*sigh* More bullshit...

*sigh* What a horrible example, but then again: It's you.
And I even made it easy for you by talking about apples and oranges.

Mad Jim Jaspers was warping the reality by transmuting matter. Once there was no matter around, he couldn't pull it off. We view the Sentry as a reality warper, who affects reality on a molecular level. At least sane people, who have read up on the Sentry do. You do completely other things, but then again: It's you.

We're talking about matter manipulation / reality warping by matter manipulation against ACTUAL REALITY WARPING, where there are no rules. Obviously for the discussion to have any meaning we have to talk about molecule manipulation vs reality warping at their absolute highest level. And there molecule manipulation can't compete with actual reality warping.
Below that there are levels to both these power sets. Plenty of cosmic abstract characters have reality warping, but they have their clear limits and someone like the Pre Retcon Beyonder is still multiple magnitudes above them in power and abilities.

Jamie Braddock for example is a reality warper, but he has even more limitations than someone like Mad Jim Jaspers. If you have the choice between actual reality warping and Jamie Braddocks version you clearly go with actual reality warping. You would even pick molecule manipulation over Jamie Braddocks reality warping.

Matter manip =/= Reality manip. A reality manipulator can do everything a matter manipulator can, but not vice versa. Matter is just a PART of reality.

Sorry guys, this is the best dumbed-down version I could come up with for the hard of understanding.

Originally posted by Enzeru
*sigh* What a horrible example, but then again: [b]It's you.
And I even made it easy for you by talking about apples and oranges.

Mad Jim Jaspers was warping the reality by transmuting matter. Once there was no matter around, he couldn't pull it off. We view the Sentry as a reality warper, who affects reality on a molecular level. At least sane people, who have read up on the Sentry do. You do completely other things, but then again: It's you.

We're talking about matter manipulation / reality warping by matter manipulation against ACTUAL REALITY WARPING, where there are no rules. Obviously for the discussion to have any meaning we have to talk about molecule manipulation vs reality warping at their absolute highest level. And there molecule manipulation can't compete with actual reality warping.
Below that there are levels to both these power sets. Plenty of cosmic abstract characters have reality warping, but they have their clear limits and someone like the Pre Retcon Beyonder is still multiple magnitudes above them in power and abilities.

Jamie Braddock for example is a reality warper, but he has even more limitations than someone like Mad Jim Jaspers. If you have the choice between actual reality warping and Jamie Braddocks version you clearly go with actual reality warping. You would even pick molecule manipulation over Jamie Braddocks reality warping. [/B]

LOL.

What an horrible pile of bullshit....

Go on more definist fallacy, like shooting yourself in the foot isn't enough, Donald. 😆

1) We are actually talking about Reality warping vs Molecule Manipulation

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Which is better?
or are they the same effect just different sources of power?

Example MJJ or Mxy for reality manip
Molecule man for Molecular manip

2) I actually proved that neither Molecule or Reality manipulators can affect stuff out of nothingness thus making your fan-cannon, again, a baseless claim, null & Void.

Have a good day, Donald. 😆

Thought about it - changed my mind.

Reality manipulation at the highest level is not the same as molecular manipulation at the highest level.

A molecular manipulator can turn snow into adamantium. Can turn flesh into flame. Can turn candy into potash.

A reality manipulator can turn snow into talking dancing adamantium that has ten little wolverines for claws. Can turn flesh into the greatest hits by the BeeGees. Can turn candy into a half forgotten dream.

There are levels to everything

Originally posted by RealityWarper

2) I actually proved that neither Molecule or Reality manipulators can affect stuff out of nothingness thus making your fan-cannon, again, a baseless claim, null & Void.

No. You've done the same thing you always do: You've picked ONE instance, which supports your claim and you're treating that one instance as the only truth. But as I pointed out: There is more to comics than just one take on it.
You however ignore everything else and wonder why people treat you like a joke. Speaking of jokes: Stop mentioning Donald Trump. It makes you look even more stupid. You're a goof from France. You don't know anything about Americans and their politics. The only reason why you're mentioning Trump is, because you heard somewhere that it's cool to hate Donald Trump - and that a lot of people seem to do it as well. And now you're hoping to get people on your side due to them "getting the reference".

As I said:
At the highest end of the power scale, molecule manipulators are limited by the need for matter to manipulate. Actual reality warpers don't have such limitations. It's the definition of their power set. They're straight up omnipotent. We're talking about characters like the One Above All. The Presence. Man of Miracles.

Molecule manipulation means I can turn you into glass.

Reality manipulation means I can turn you into glass, OR into a story, or a song, or a childhood memory in an orphan's mind from Byzantium.

Originally posted by spetznaz

Thought about it - changed my mind.

Reality manipulation at the highest level is not the same as molecular manipulation at the highest level.

A molecular manipulator can turn snow into adamantium. Can turn flesh into flame. Can turn candy into potash.

A reality manipulator can turn snow into talking dancing adamantium that has ten little wolverines for claws. Can turn flesh into the greatest hits by the BeeGees. Can turn candy into a half forgotten dream.

There are levels to everything

Not sure I agree with that line of thinking.

In theory a molecule manipulator can do much of the same things. Molecule Man in Dark Avengers was affecting Norman Osborns memories. According to Molecule Man memories are made out of molecules as well and therefore he has control over them. So molecule manipulators have control over more abstract concepts and laws. On top of that there is always the creation of sentient life. They can do that as well. Even if it means to create sentient snow with Wolverines for claws.

In my opinion the only difference between the two of those is the requirement for matter of the molecule manipulators.
Pre retcon Beyonder and Molecule Man were good examples of that dynamic. I don't think it's crazy to say that the Beyonder was able to do anything he wanted. He was able to create everything out of nothing.

Molecule Man was super powerful, even after the retcon. But we saw him being dependent on matter to actually use his powers:
https://i.imgur.com/ZAPv2vo.jpg

Don't forget, reality warpers can mess with time as well....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Don't forget, reality warpers can mess with time as well....

I have considered that as well, but how would Molecule Man and Sentry factor into that?

Molecule Man fought Beyonder and their fight was affecting different timelines:
https://i.imgur.com/9tvXN1p.jpg

^ Would you say, that the timelines part came from the Beyonder only? I could get behind it, but still... ambiguous.

In my opinion Sentry sent his infitendrils of darkness back in time, once he was told one too many times that he is the angel of death:
https://imgur.com/AZZGolf
https://imgur.com/oItfgDq

^ Would you say that's the Sentry messing with time or Moses having the same powers as the Sentry? Arguments can be made for both instances, but that Moses argument just isn't sitting well with me personally.

Isn't reality messing with time more of a "This is how time flows now" sort of deal as opposed to going up and down timelines? If that makes sense.

There's really no reason it shouldn't have complete control over time but there seems to be some difference in comics. Also reality and time gems.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Molecule manipulation means I can turn you into glass.

Reality manipulation means I can turn you into glass, OR into a story, or a song, or a childhood memory in an orphan's mind from Byzantium.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Also reality and time gems.

👆

Originally posted by operator616
Im glad this thread got brought up, because some people fail to understand basic physics, it seems.

The universe, fundamentally, is made up of three-dimensional space, and 1 temporal dimension. Inside said universe, mass/energy exists. All matter ranging from galaxies to freakin' bacteria are made up of atoms/molecules. A molecular manipulator may be able to affect said mass/energy but not the universe itself. He can't, say, move an entire universe or warp it in any way (because space/time is different from matter/energy) . All he can do is affect physical matter, but this physical matter still exists within the 4D space/time continuum which is beyond a molecular manipulator's power.

Hey operator, one question. Sentry is a truly reality warper? Because in a Dark Avengers summary's says that he twisted the reality.

Originally posted by Enzeru
No. You've done the same thing you always do: You've picked ONE instance, which supports your claim and you're treating that one instance as the only truth. But as I pointed out: There is more to comics than just one take on it.

It doesn't matter if it's "one instance".

The definition of the reality in Marvel is that it's made of matter and energy.

It's still the case so far.

You however ignore everything else and wonder why people treat you like a joke.

I don't care about people opinion and yours in particular.

You posted an opinion and the scan I posted proved you wrong.

Speaking of jokes: Stop mentioning Donald Trump. It makes you look even more stupid. You're a goof from France. You don't know anything about Americans and their politics. The only reason why you're mentioning Trump is, because you heard somewhere that it's cool to hate Donald Trump - and that a lot of people seem to do it as well. And now you're hoping to get people on your side due to them "getting the reference".

I'm posting scans of Trump using the same kind of punchlines than you do.

Your personality seems very similar to his.

As I said:
At the highest end of the power scale, molecule manipulators are limited by the need for matter to manipulate. Actual reality warpers don't have such limitations. It's the definition of their power set.

The definition of their power-set is that they manipulate the reality, which is made of matter and energy.

You can't get over being proven wrong, once more.

That's your problem. Not mine.

They're straight up omnipotent. We're talking about characters like the One Above All. The Presence. Man of Miracles.

Definist fallacy again. 😆

We aren't talking about true omnipotent characters.

It's nice to see you cornered again.XD

Marvel says illusion is the most powerful ability.