MA ability vs Overall Skill

Well in context: I have a friend that's actually about a head taller than me( I'm 5-10) and well over 240. He is a bouncer.. and passed the coast guard.

My friend Matt is army trained... Lean about 5-9
jp and Matt got into an arguing match. Jp threw a punch. Matt took it and hit him square in the chest. Jp wen down and couldn't breathe.

Jp also once found out he got his gf pregnant and punched out the side glass window of his car... Idiot went to the hospital for glass cuts on his hand...

:-)
I've seen other fights but that's the only one I know where anyone had any kind of training for actual fights

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Doesn't have a style? SS has a style, and he doesn't use MA, so does Odin, so do many characters without the need to move up. Hell Galactus has one. Stop thinking styles and skills as only kung fu, oh and his attacks are often much more graceful than other street level MA's who flail wildly about. But for some reason their haymaker is an automatic karate su permove, while other characters hits are just normal. *sigh*

No he doesn`t have a style, what he got is a collection of moves that are in no way rooted in solid basics, functionality or flow. After all these years he haven`t even learned to keep his guard up. Probably because he usually listens to his spider sense and instincts that just say "DODGE, move AWAY". His reliance on his powers is pretty much preventing him from getting better. Kinda like a strong guy who just focuses on overpowering his opponent instead of improving technique.

If you want to call Peter`s moves anything it is looser style.

Also it is kinda funny how you keep reminding us that you are an "actual MA", a "trained fighter" and "in excellent physical shape". Do you have anything to prove?

And yes, boxers for instance hit harder than untrained people. Do you really argue all those hours they train day after day year after year on perfecting their punches are for nothing?? *sigh* INDEED

Man, there are sooo many things wrong with this post. Your problem is you're thinking too much into traditional "style" instead of seeing things for what they are. How can people say they accept comics and try to keep people on worldly based styles? I take it you're a MA junkie. That's fine, but maybe you want to step back and take a breath away from you computer, because you seem offended.

Originally posted by Mshinu
No he doesn`t have a style, what he got is a collection of moves that are in no way rooted in solid basics, functionality or flow. After all these years he haven`t even learned to keep his guard up. Probably because he usually listens to his spider sense and instincts that just say "DODGE, move AWAY". His reliance on his powers is pretty much preventing him from getting better. Kinda like a strong guy who just focuses on overpowering his opponent instead of improving technique.

He flows better than most streets in movement and he's naturally more fluid. He does have his guard up. The best way to "block" an attack is to "not be there", use that opponents momentum and attack against them. That is functionatlity that isn't even taught at the basic level, he just makes it look silly by joking around.

How about these basics, you know the transference of power and how most of your power comes from the opposite end of your body in an attack, say a punch. Now fundamentally if you flail your arms about without thinking you lose very much power and momentum versus if you "throw your body" into it, you get much more power. Because of his abilities and musculstature his body can contract and he puts more weight into his attack, multiplying the damage. Those are fundamentals. Look at some of the other streets throw nothing but haymakers and rely on their powers, DD relies on his radar sense, does that mean he isn't skilled? Efficiency over proficiency anyday. There is a difference you know.

Originally posted by Mshinu
If you want to call Peter`s moves anything it is looser style.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Also it is kinda funny how you keep reminding us that you are an "actual MA", a "trained fighter" and "in excellent physical shape". Do you have anything to prove?

The truth is in the content. 😉

Originally posted by Mshinu
And yes, boxers for instance hit harder than untrained people. Do you really argue all those hours they train day after day year after year on perfecting their punches are for nothing?? *sigh* INDEED

Besides you are strawmanning my argument. I said that Parker like anybody would benefit from opening up to new training and techniques, and I never said he wouldn't. However many things go into making hits more effective, as in the hardening and stiffening of the muscles and bones around the impact area, this breaking down and strengthening is referred to as body hardening. Spiderman naturally already has the cardiovascular and muscular advantage, as well as the benefit of being fully body hardened. He uses them in a different way, but he could benefit with some training. Never said he wouldn't. I believe you should stop acting like MA makes up for any and all skill in style when most MA's nowadays aren't even that effective of fighters, experience counts and guess what Spiderman has that too.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Man, there are sooo many things wrong with this post. Your problem is you're thinking too much into traditional "style" instead of seeing things for what they are. How can people say they accept comics and try to keep people on worldly based styles? I take it you're a MA junkie. That's fine, but maybe you want to step back and take a breath away from you computer, because you seem offended.

Yea, except he doesn't. First of all Spiderman holds back a lionshare of his ability and power, probaly about 80% most of the time, so he definitely doesn't rely on muscle. He relies on effective movement. That *is* his style, a style can be anything. There are styles people use to adapt when they only have 1 leg, or 1 arm, so why would powers be any different? Keep in mind it takes more skill to fight and subdue someone at half effort than it does to go all out. Takes more control, skill *is* control.

He flows better than most streets in movement and he's naturally more fluid. He does have his guard up. The best way to "block" an attack is to "not be there", use that opponents momentum and attack against them. That is functionatlity that isn't even taught at the basic level, he just makes it look silly by joking around.

How about these basics, you know the transference of power and how most of your power comes from the opposite end of your body in an attack, say a punch. Now fundamentally if you flail your arms about without thinking you lose very much power and momentum versus if you "throw your body" into it, you get much more power. Because of his abilities and musculstature his body can contract and he puts more weight into his attack, multiplying the damage. Those are fundamentals. Look at some of the other streets throw nothing but haymakers and rely on their powers, DD relies on his radar sense, does that mean he isn't skilled? Efficiency over proficiency anyday. There is a difference you know.

Well he's done anything but lose in all of these years most of the time, and that's against superior odds, *against* characters with more strength and speed. I wonder why?

How many times have I said that? My point was there are many posers who act like they know and only watch fights and do nothing else. I've done fighting military wise (which is based more on getting the job done than being fancy), and your MMA stuff. Some others have done it as well. People who know me already know that, I've been here a long time. Nothing to prove to you or anybody else, ever.

The truth is in the content. 😉

Yea, depends on the size of that boxer compared to the untrained person. Of course a person who knows how to hit and they are physically the same will be at an advantage, but if that person is much more physically dominant then no. That's why they have weight classes, I guess other attributes really matter.

Besides you are strawmanning my argument. I said that Parker like anybody would benefit from opening up to new training and techniques, and I never said he wouldn't. However many things go into making hits more effective, as in the hardening and stiffening of the muscles and bones around the impact area, this breaking down and strengthening is referred to as body hardening. Spiderman naturally already has the cardiovascular and muscular advantage, as well as the benefit of being fully body hardened. He uses them in a different way, but he could benefit with some training. Never said he wouldn't. I believe you should stop acting like MA makes up for any and all skill in style when most MA's nowadays aren't even that effective of fighters, experience counts and guess what Spiderman has that too.

👆

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Man, there are sooo many things wrong with this post. Your problem is you're thinking too much into traditional "style" instead of seeing things for what they are. How can people say they accept comics and try to keep people on worldly based styles? I take it you're a MA junkie. That's fine, but maybe you want to step back and take a breath away from you computer, because you seem offended.

Yea, except he doesn't. First of all Spiderman holds back a lionshare of his ability and power, probaly about 80% most of the time, so he definitely doesn't rely on muscle. He relies on effective movement. That *is* his style, a style can be anything. There are styles people use to adapt when they only have 1 leg, or 1 arm, so why would powers be any different? Keep in mind it takes more skill to fight and subdue someone at half effort than it does to go all out. Takes more control, skill *is* control.

He flows better than most streets in movement and he's naturally more fluid. He does have his guard up. The best way to "block" an attack is to "not be there", use that opponents momentum and attack against them. That is functionatlity that isn't even taught at the basic level, he just makes it look silly by joking around.

How about these basics, you know the transference of power and how most of your power comes from the opposite end of your body in an attack, say a punch. Now fundamentally if you flail your arms about without thinking you lose very much power and momentum versus if you "throw your body" into it, you get much more power. Because of his abilities and musculstature his body can contract and he puts more weight into his attack, multiplying the damage. Those are fundamentals. Look at some of the other streets throw nothing but haymakers and rely on their powers, DD relies on his radar sense, does that mean he isn't skilled? Efficiency over proficiency anyday. There is a difference you know.

Well he's done anything but lose in all of these years most of the time, and that's against superior odds, *against* characters with more strength and speed. I wonder why?

How many times have I said that? My point was there are many posers who act like they know and only watch fights and do nothing else. I've done fighting military wise (which is based more on getting the job done than being fancy), and your MMA stuff. Some others have done it as well. People who know me already know that, I've been here a long time. Nothing to prove to you or anybody else, ever.

The truth is in the content. 😉

Yea, depends on the size of that boxer compared to the untrained person. Of course a person who knows how to hit and they are physically the same will be at an advantage, but if that person is much more physically dominant then no. That's why they have weight classes, I guess other attributes really matter.

Besides you are strawmanning my argument. I said that Parker like anybody would benefit from opening up to new training and techniques, and I never said he wouldn't. However many things go into making hits more effective, as in the hardening and stiffening of the muscles and bones around the impact area, this breaking down and strengthening is referred to as body hardening. Spiderman naturally already has the cardiovascular and muscular advantage, as well as the benefit of being fully body hardened. He uses them in a different way, but he could benefit with some training. Never said he wouldn't. I believe you should stop acting like MA makes up for any and all skill in style when most MA's nowadays aren't even that effective of fighters, experience counts and guess what Spiderman has that too.

Originally posted by Tha Mshinu

If you want to call Peter`s moves anything it is looser style.

pretty much what C-Master said. 👆

Originally posted by Battlehammer
It a rage he goes into which pumps his adrenalin beyond it max and increase every one of his physical abilities while maintaining his mind ability to come up with strategies in compressed amount of time. among other things.

Because it extremely dangerous. A lot of the times he goes Berserker he not even completely berserk. It makes him see in red and few everything as target/prey. He will kill anything in sight when completely gone which is what makes him so dangerous he a walking killing machine who blood thirst can't be quench. Which is why he can't allow it to take hold, becuase if he ever let it completely consume him he kill friend or foe with out hesitation.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master Man, there are sooo many things wrong with this post. Your problem is you're thinking too much into traditional "style" instead of seeing things for what they are. How can people say they accept comics and try to keep people on worldly based styles? I take it you're a MA junkie. That's fine, but maybe you want to step back and take a breath away from you computer, because you seem offended.

I`m not the one calling you an MA junkie. Perhaps you should reflect on what you just said yourself. Anyway I don`t watch UFC and hardly any sports at all thank you very much.

Yea, except he doesn't. First of all Spiderman holds back a lionshare of his ability and power, probaly about 80% most of the time, so he definitely doesn't rely on muscle. He relies on effective movement. That *is* his style, a style can be anything. There are styles people use to adapt when they only have 1 leg, or 1 arm, so why would powers be any different? Keep in mind it takes more skill to fight and subdue someone at half effort than it does to go all out. Takes more control, skill *is* control.

That he can do acrobatics does not mean his fighting can be called effective or functional. Sure, skill is control but having learned to pull your sloppy punches does not make you good.

He flows better than most streets in movement and he's naturally more fluid. He does have his guard up. The best way to "block" an attack is to "not be there", use that opponents momentum and attack against them. That is functionatlity that isn't even taught at the basic level, he just makes it look silly by joking around.

It is taught at basic level, however so is repositioning yourself in the right place. Just following instincts will make you overcompensate, waste energy and time as well as cost you the opportunity to counter. As for his guard, the arms are flailing all over the place instead of protecting his face.

How about these basics, you know the transference of power and how most of your power comes from the opposite end of your body in an attack, say a punch. Now fundamentally if you flail your arms about without thinking you lose very much power and momentum versus if you "throw your body" into it, you get much more power. Because of his abilities and musculstature his body can contract and he puts more weight into his attack, multiplying the damage. Those are fundamentals. Look at some of the other streets throw nothing but haymakers and rely on their powers, DD relies on his radar sense, does that mean he isn't skilled? Efficiency over proficiency anyday. There is a difference you know.

What is your point here? You already agreed Spidey got no basics.

Well he's done anything but lose in all of these years most of the time, and that's against superior odds, *against* characters with more strength and speed. I wonder why?

First of all his powers IS a very nice package. Also, acrobatics, spider sense, smarts, luck and timely backups keeps him alive. His record also includes a fair share of MAists getting the better of him.

How many times have I said that? My point was there are many posers who act like they know and only watch fights and do nothing else. I've done fighting military wise (which is based more on getting the job done than being fancy), and your MMA stuff. Some others have done it as well. People who know me already know that, I've been here a long time. Nothing to prove to you or anybody else, ever.

Good for you, just asking because you do seem to bring it up quite often. Anyway I am a former sergeant and 2nd lieutenant myself.

Yea, depends on the size of that boxer compared to the untrained person. Of course a person who knows how to hit and they are physically the same will be at an advantage, but if that person is much more physically dominant then no. That's why they have weight classes, I guess other attributes really matter.

Of course attributes matter. That does not mean spidey`s punch is "the same" as cap`s even if they look similar on panel. One is a sloppy amateur move relying on speed, the other a master`s strike, a near perfect application of the appropriate force to a particular target in that instant.

Besides you are strawmanning my argument. I said that Parker like anybody would benefit from opening up to new training and techniques, and I never said he wouldn't. However many things go into making hits more effective, as in the hardening and stiffening of the muscles and bones around the impact area, this breaking down and strengthening is referred to as body hardening. Spiderman naturally already has the cardiovascular and muscular advantage, as well as the benefit of being fully body hardened. He uses them in a different way, but he could benefit with some training. Never said he wouldn't. I believe you should stop acting like MA makes up for any and all skill in style when most MA's nowadays aren't even that effective of fighters, experience counts and guess what Spiderman has that too.

Spidey`s durability (as it is called on comic forums) does of course benefit him in a fight. He still hurts his hand from time to time tho, probably in part because he doesn`t know how to punch properly. Anyway there are plenty of styles that do not train to harden the body beyond what regular exercise will do to you.

Most places today in the real world today teach bogus MA, true. The average comic character however will not have trained at a McDojo. The arts are also shown as being much much more effective and easy to learn in comics. It is not unusual to see someone take a crash course in monkey-poo-fu and then go beat up a whole gang of thugs or ninjas by himself. Top tiers like Temugin can take apart vastly superior foes like Iron Man. Silly perhaps, but so is a nerd getting bitten by a radioactive spider and gain superpower from it.

Originally posted by SamZED
His fighting style is based on his super speed, strength and agility, it uses all his advantages to the fullest and that helps him to defeat faster and stronger opponent, as for people with MA skills but no super powers going all out he can bitchslap any of them into ko including Bats and Cap.

He is in no way using his advantages to the fullest, proper training would benefit him immensely.

It is usually Cap who slams Peter around like a nice little practice dummy..

Also him going all out actually makes him easier to deal with according to DD. Not suprising since he is not skilled at it.

Originally posted by Mshinu
He is in no way using his advantages to the fullest, proper training would benefit him immensely.

It is usually Cap who slams Peter around like a nice little practice dummy..

Also him going all out actually makes him easier to deal with according to DD. Not suprising since he is not skilled at it.

Originally posted by SamZED
Yeah, look at him using his "loser" style to beat the crap outta over a hundred warriors with guns and swords.
http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/7592/feat15skills4ot7.jpg

A hundered jobbers you mean. Groups of ninjas or whatever are routinely taken down in comics by non-superpowered heroes.

Or his "loser" skills to use Iron Fist's own attack against him.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/1588/spideyvsironfist2i2ff.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4728/feat39fight9ey0.jpg

Hard to see what he is actually doing with the webs there. Anyway if spidey wanted to be in that "perfect position" why did he not just jump there in the first place? Just the regular spidey trash talk if you ask me.

What you and some other people dont understand is his abilities on par with his years of fighting experience make him more than just a match for any trained MA fighter and that is while holding back. As for going all out, I dont care what Daredevil said but Parker koed him with one lazy punch when Matt slightly pissed him off and started a fight. Same could be said about Taskmaster, Bullseye and many others. They all can hold their own against him but their ma skils never help them against POed Parker, as for Captain America the two things saving him from geting his ass kicked by Spider-man is his name and Parker's CIS and that was made clear many times in the comics. [/B]

Of course his abilities compensates for lack of skill, why would it be otherwise?

PO`ed parker uses what little skill he has even less. Hits harder sure but in every other aspect he is easier to handle.

Originally posted by Mshinu
A hundered jobbers you mean. Groups of ninjas or whatever are routinely taken down in comics by non-superpowered heroes.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Hard to see what he is actually doing with the webs there. Anyway if spidey wanted to be in that "perfect position" why did he not just jump there in the first place? Just the regular spidey trash talk if you ask me.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Of course his abilities compensates for lack of skill, why would it be otherwise?

PO`ed parker uses what little skill he has even less. Hits harder sure but in every other aspect he is easier to handle.

Originally posted by Mshinu
I`m not the one calling you an MA junkie. Perhaps you should reflect on what you just said yourself. Anyway I don`t watch UFC and hardly any sports at all thank you very much.

That he can do acrobatics does not mean his fighting can be called effective or functional. Sure, skill is control but having learned to pull your sloppy punches does not make you good.

It is taught at basic level, however so is repositioning yourself in the right place. Just following instincts will make you overcompensate, waste energy and time as well as cost you the opportunity to counter. As for his guard, the arms are flailing all over the place instead of protecting his face.

What is your point here? You already agreed Spidey got no basics.

First of all his powers IS a very nice package. Also, acrobatics, spider sense, smarts, luck and timely backups keeps him alive. His record also includes a fair share of MAists getting the better of him.

Good for you, just asking because you do seem to bring it up quite often. Anyway I am a former sergeant and 2nd lieutenant myself.

Of course attributes matter. That does not mean spidey`s punch is "the same" as cap`s even if they look similar on panel. One is a sloppy amateur move relying on speed, the other a master`s strike, a near perfect application of the appropriate force to a particular target in that instant.

Spidey`s durability (as it is called on comic forums) does of course benefit him in a fight. He still hurts his hand from time to time tho, probably in part because he doesn`t know how to punch properly. Anyway there are plenty of styles that do not train to harden the body beyond what regular exercise will do to you.

Most places today in the real world today teach bogus MA, true. The average comic character however will not have trained at a McDojo. The arts are also shown as being much much more effective and easy to learn in comics. It is not unusual to see someone take a crash course in monkey-poo-fu and then go beat up a whole gang of thugs or ninjas by himself. Top tiers like Temugin can take apart vastly superior foes like Iron Man. Silly perhaps, but so is a nerd getting bitten by a radioactive spider and gain superpower from it.

I don't bring up anything often really because I don't like people in my business. Other people bring it up far more often than I do. Agree with you on McDojo's though. I do get that MA junkie vibe from you. Most go in threads and say Spiderman loses to everybody, even people he kills with one hit. Spiderman repositions himself much faster naturally also. And again I'm not saying he doesn't have room for any improvement because they all do, it's just that he does have skill.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Ok, so where did I say he has no basics, and 2, can you show me examples of sloppy style vs all other fighters, because they run in and charge (i.e Wolverine) quite often. There is no difference, one character is assumed to be fighting better by being MA and no other reason. 99% of the time that is the case.

I can`t find where you said that so I must have misinterpeted one of your posts. My apologies.

Would you say that spidey posess good basics then? For fighting I mean, not acrobatics.

As for wolvies claws-first flying charge I`ve always found it strange that he does those. Good against ninja fodder perhaps but not real opponents. Leaving the ground is generally risky in the real world but it looks flashy and probably sells more comics.

I don't bring up anything often really because I don't like people in my business. Other people bring it up far more often than I do. Agree with you on McDojo's though. I do get that MA junkie vibe from you. Most go in threads and say Spiderman loses to everybody, even people he kills with one hit. Spiderman repositions himself much faster naturally also. And again I'm not saying he doesn't have room for any improvement because they all do, it's just that he does have skill.

So, when you call me an MA junkie what does that mean? I haven`t even jacked off while watching kung fu panda lately 😛

Not saying spidey looses to everybody, I am just saying in comics MA is treated like a superpower and top skilled characters can hang with superpowered ones like spidey and even above.

Well that's what I mean. Where are these guys consistently doing great form and everything because generally I don't see it.

It`s comics, you can`t expect the writers and artists to be experts on the subject of functional martial arts.

Powers, including martial art skill, just need to be depicted dramatically.

Well that's what I mean, aren't we really just assuming then? About if they are using it or not? If anything Peter's moves often look more complex really by depiction. 😬

lot of arguement about spidey being skilled or not here. Here's my opinion concerning it:

I'm not saying spidey certainly is skilled or that it has been definitely proven in his comic appearances.......but in theory, I think spidey, and anyone else who regularly engages in combat for years, would inevitably develop some form of skilled fighting, or their own "style".

If I simply decided to just go out fighting one day......and continued to do so for years......eventually i'd become a better fighter and develop some rough method or at least several routine moves of my own making. How do you think those who established MA's did so themselves? they made them up.......and who's to say I(or spidey or anyone else) couldn't be just as successful as them in creating their own form of fighting.......well, maybe not as successful, seeing as more than one person has employed and refined those styles over many, many years......but you get the basic concept.

Now people may be thinking that this theory is off, seeing as spidey has always had his powers to aid him in combat, therefore more or less eliminating the need to develop a style.......but remember this, Spidey doesn't and hasn't always gone up against those who he outmatches physically due to his powers.....he tackles more than just street thugs. he's battled those as strong or stronger, as fast/agile or faster/more agile, etc, etc.......what enables him to beat opponents that have him in these physical areas? if it's roughly a level playing field physically, then it's just like one average guy vs another.......how then would he come out with no skill to speak of?

edit:

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
If anything Peter's moves often look more complex really by depiction. 😬

In real life MA are helpful and the training alone is more then worth the time. However, they are not everything.

In comics MA are treated like superpowers.

I'd say SF characters and characters like Karate Kid and Gamora are superpowers, others are more assets than anything. Being a skilled boxer doesn't make you suddenly "super" at punching.

When they use the powers to break mountains or shoot fireballs with it, that's another story entirely.