KOTOR 2- Good?

Ok, so I'm reading alot about Kotor 2 over on the SomethingAwful site about why its actually a good game. I'm actually starting to remember why I liked the game again, before you guys poo poo'd on it constantly and made me question it. So I wanted to know what you guys thought, you might as well say becuase there isn't much else to talk about anymore and this may lead to an interesting discussion.

Heres what one guy says-'Any Star Wars story is a bad Star Wars story. Seriously, there's no room for nuance and most stories devolve into "isn't this guy great/ a badass" or, even worse, a traditional protagonist/antihero conquering great evil/good BUT WITH A TWIST HAHA BET YOU NEVER SAW THAT COMING! Just like Harry Potter, people buy into it because the setting is compelling and don't realize that virtually everything else is contrived and monochrome.

If it weren't for x-wings, wookies and lightsabers no one would have ever given a poo poo about Star Wars. Obsidian took a good setting and added actual character development and excellent moral dilemmas. Who gives a poo poo if they bent the traditional Star Wars flavor over backwards? It's nothing Lucas himself hasn't done a thousand times. I'm sure a dozen people are going to trample in going on about how Star Wars isn't meant to be pretentious or whatever but there's no reason someone shouldn't be able to take a setting like this that is so appealing and improve it with writing that wouldn't embarrass a College Freshman.'

So.... Thoughts? Did you like Kotor 2? Not like it? Why is it worse than Kotor 1? Better? Whatever, just talk.

Most of the people that I know who liked Kotor 2, liked it for that reason. It was a welcome change of pace. The conflicts were multilayered, the concepts that are often taken for granted e.g. the force, were explored. It brought more to table than you'd normally expect for SW, putting to shame many sw novels.

I didn't think it was a bad game, but it could've been far better. And I still enjoy playing it. I've played through it at least five times.

I've only ever been able to complete it once, and it took me weeks to do it. Every other time I try I get turned off by Kreia's cryptic talk and the general boring play through Peragus and Telos.

That's so true..

PHUCK PERAGUS

Aye Valerian and Lucien said it best. I really enjoyed KotOR alot, it was the second RPG I ever played. (KotOR being first). Though I have completed KotORII 6 times, for each of the different specialisations.

I've gotta agree with Allankles. It was far more deep and complex than pretty much any other Star Wars work out there.

Could have been better.

It wasn't that bad. I, in fact, loved it. Kotor had a great story and ok gameplay elements, but ultimately was incredibly repetetive and it seemed like a huge clusterfVckrush to get your lightsaber with a meager two levels, and then you were a jedi.

Kotor II really expanded on the skill system and added more tiers and better looking combat effects while making it feel like you were becoming more and more powerful, not instantly powerful. The story for kotor II wasn't bad either and was quite deus ex-ish. I mean, the jedi are in hiding, the sith are ****ing everything, and your main goal is just to survive? Not to mention the character developement of the sith. While alot of the game felt unfinished (it largely was), it was an improvement, I thought, due to its deep story and character development, combined with a truly customizeable character and a REAL dark/light side.

That's exactly what sucks. It was a very good game, but just imagine just how good it could've been if it hadn't been rushed and unfinished.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
That's exactly what sucks. It was a very good game, but just imagine just how good it could've been if it hadn't been rushed and unfinished.

Well let's not get carried away here it was good for a Star Wars game/piece of media but comparatively speaking it was not a great game and never would have been.

Originally posted by Weltall
Well let's not get carried away here it was good for a Star Wars game/piece of media but comparatively speaking it was not a great game and never would have been.

KOTOR 2 holds a warm place in my heart for taking the traditional star wars adventure, beating the ****ing shit out of it and making a philosophically mature game in the process.

Originally posted by Autokrat
KOTOR 2 holds a warm place in my heart for taking the traditional star wars adventure, beating the ****ing shit out of it and making a philosophically mature game in the process.

Edit: don't get me wrong- I voted "hell yes!" I just don't think that it deserves the level of pretentious snobbery that it gets. It was a decent game hindered by cutbacks. Not some kind of philosophical landmark.

Edit PS: Google Chrome does spellcheck in the edit box. Lousy Firefox.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Kotor 2 is "philosophically mature?" I think you hit the letter "t" instead of 'n' there. i've never thought that Kotor 2 was as deep as everybody claims. There might be some context that I'm missing, but changing from "lulz teh drk sied is the evilz" to "teh drk sied is anothr towl 2 be uzd" doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. The best I can come up with is that Obsidian lampshaded the traditional RPG twist by not having a game-ending twist. But they still had the Exile be fundamentally different (by virtue of being a wound in the Force) from all of her/your contemporaries.

Edit: don't get me wrong- I voted "hell yes!" I just don't think that it deserves the level of pretentious snobbery that it gets. It was a decent game hindered by cutbacks. Not some kind of philosophical landmark.

Edit PS: Google Chrome does spellcheck in the edit box. Lousy Firefox.

Apparently you missed the subtle hints of determinism mixed in with the questions of free will and utilitarianism. While in the grand scheme of gaming, KOTOR II is not titanic, for a Star Wars game it's pretty amazing. It presents ethical dilemmas on a level usually devoid in Star Wars.

"subtle hints of determinism" =/= "wah the Force uses all of us"

"the questions of free will" ...granted.

"utilitarianism" I see how you could get that from "kill many (while EVIL) to save more (by averting True Sith) but the way they showed it seems so juvenile.

Jesus, I'm so glad college is over and that I only had to take 2 philosophy courses.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
"subtle hints of determinism" =/= "wah the Force uses all of us"

"the questions of free will" ...granted.

"utilitarianism" I see how you could get that from "kill many (while EVIL) to save more (by averting True Sith) but the way they showed it seems so juvenile.

You know all that shit about Kreia and echoes? What do you think she was talking about? For the most of the game she was lecturing The Exile on the subtle interplays on cause and effect and how small actions can have far reaching consequences. This is rather remarkable for an RPG, much less a Star Wars RPG.

The Utilitarian aspect wasn't ruined by the game, but by later developments and the fact that SW is juvenile setting to begin with. The fact that the writers could actually interject this difficult ethical dilemma for Revan, with all the limitations of the SW mythos, is rather impressive.

Watchmen is an excellent example of a similar story where one man kills two million people in an act of mass murder to save billions more. Its shocking and horrifying, yet so well done at the same time. Of course Alan Moore doesn't have to deal with the moronic concepts in the SW universe.

Kotor 2 kind of had the same theme as some other SW media. You know, the questioning of the Jedi Order. The Jedi are supposed to be the good guys, yet, there are so many flaws within the Vulcan Jedi Order Code.

This game did the same as Kotor 1. Did the Exile do the right thing by defying the Council and following Revan to war, or should she have waited like the Council did?