KOTOR 2- Good?

Originally posted by Autokrat
You know all that shit about Kreia and echoes? What do you think she was talking about? For the most of the game she was lecturing The Exile on the subtle interplays on cause and effect and how small actions can have far reaching consequences. This is rather remarkable for an RPG, much less a Star Wars RPG.

The Utilitarian aspect wasn't ruined by the game, but by later developments and the fact that SW is juvenile setting to begin with. The fact that the writers could actually interject this difficult ethical dilemma for Revan, with all the limitations of the SW mythos, is rather impressive.

Watchmen is an excellent example of a similar story where one man kills two million people in an act of mass murder to save billions more. Its shocking and horrifying, yet so well done at the same time. Of course Alan Moore doesn't have to deal with the moronic concepts in the SW universe.

Holy shit, I actually got everything you said out of those two movies. Sweet, philosophy genius over here.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Holy shit, I actually got everything you said out of those two movies. Sweet, philosophy genius over here.

Normally I wouldn't feed you, but since you seem really down lately (all this insulting everyone else so you can feel better about yourself) I decided to treat you to some memories of mother Russia.

YouTube video

Although I suppose that's a little modern for you since as I recall you moved here in the early 90s. Perhaps this one will have more relevance.

YouTube video

Doesn't that manly music just make you feel like a badass again? Just think, between putting down Lightsnake...

...and listening to memories of home, you'll be back to realizing just how awesome you are.

This is rather remarkable for an RPG, much less a Star Wars RPG.

My gaming cred is considerably limited, but isn't this basically standard fare nowadays? Neverwinter Nights was all about how what you do will change the course of the world. Jade Empire hinges on your decision about the fate of a... well, empire. From what I've gathered from Nai, The Witcher incorporates the idea of the impact from the little decisions that you make. And, hell, pen and paper D&D, the source of these games, is almost entirely built around the consequences of your (more varied) choices.

Was Kotor 2 really special because it told us that actions have consequences?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
My gaming cred is considerably limited, but isn't this basically standard fare nowadays? Neverwinter Nights was all about how what you do will change the course of the world. Jade Empire hinges on your decision about the fate of a... well, empire. From what I've gathered from Nai, The Witcher incorporates the idea of the impact from the little decisions that you make. And, hell, pen and paper D&D, the source of these games, is almost entirely built around the consequences of your (more varied) choices.

Was Kotor 2 really special because it told us that actions have consequences?

None of them addressed it the way KOTOR 2 did though. In Neverwinter Nights we are not treated to a philosophical discourse on the Chaos Theory. NWN is possessed of of the typical oh hey, defeat the big bag villain or die. You can of course opt to rule the world and be an evil douche, but this hardly constitutes to a lecture on cause and effect.

The Witcher is a good example though, especially with some wonderful arguments against Ethical Egoism woven into a lot of the dialog.

Planescape Torment is another awesome one, dealing mostly with the subjectivity of experience.

Of course helps that Chris Avellone was behind both Torment and KOTOR II. He always seems to try and throw a philosophical twist into his games, excepting the original NWN 2, which blew. Mask of the Betrayer made up for it thankfully, with all the little hints of Divine Command theory strode all over the place.

"the original NWN 2... blew"

👆

Originally posted by Autokrat
Normally I wouldn't feed you, but since you seem really down lately (all this insulting everyone else so you can feel better about yourself) I decided to treat you to some memories of mother Russia.

YouTube video

Although I suppose that's a little modern for you since as I recall you moved here in the early 90s. Perhaps this one will have more relevance.

YouTube video

Doesn't that manly music just make you feel like a badass again? Just think, between putting down Lightsnake...

...and listening to memories of home, you'll be back to realizing just how awesome you are.

Originally posted by Autokrat

...and listening to memories of home, you'll be back to realizing just how awesome you are.

Originally posted by Autokrat
This is rather remarkable for an RPG, much less a Star Wars RPG.

It really isn't; Japanese RPGs are absolutely notorious for exploring deep philosophical themes. If you want a truly philosophically mature RPG, try Xenogears or Xenosaga.

Originally posted by Weltall
It really isn't; Japanese RPGs are absolutely notorious for exploring deep philosophical themes. If you want a truly philosophically mature RPG, try Xenogears or Xenosaga.

To be fair Xenosaga and Xenogears are perhaps the only two JPRGs I like. If only because of all the Nietzschian and Existentialistic themes thrown in.

The best RPG ever made is Mass Effect, hands down.

You're entitled to your incorrect opinion but just about any notable JRPG ass rapes Mass Effect. The #1 spot would have to belong to Star Ocean: Till the End of Time.

Either that or something else that's better. Like mass effect.

It's really a matter of opinion. What makes a good RPG? that's up to you.

Originally posted by Weltall
You're entitled to your incorrect opinion but just about any notable JRPG ass rapes Mass Effect. The #1 spot would have to belong to Star Ocean: Till the End of Time.

I'm curious, but why exactly to you get your panties into a bunch over JRPGs? Its like every time you talk about them you have to look down on WPRGs for some bizarre reason and dismiss some of the best games ever made simply because they don't follow the JRPG format.

for someone who just recently started playing rpg's of any sort, what is the difference in a jrpg and a wrpg?

Originally posted by truejedi
for someone who just recently started playing rpg's of any sort, what is the difference in a jrpg and a wrpg?

JRPGs are linear with no player choice involved. Essentially, they are interactive books in video game format. This isn't a bad thing and there are quite a few badass JRPGs out there. FF III, Chrono Trigger, the above mentioned Xenosaga and Xenogears etc. However a lot of JRPGs suffer from having a retarded teenage emo protagonist with an IQ of about 80 that runs around and bashes things over the head with his huge ass sword. Either that or he's just some 17 year old dumbass no one cares about (points at Last Last Remnant and FFX).

Lost Oddessy is actually a rather good one with a badass plot. Probably because the main character wasn't some dumbass teenager that I want to strangle with my bare hands.

WRPGs are games like Planescape: Torment, KOTOR I & II, Oblivion, and the Fallout games. Usually they are more varied in format and offer player choice as opposed to pushing characters along a predefined plot.

EDIT - The Deus Ex games would also be considered WRPGs.

Deus Ex and the Thief series are some of the best games ever made.

Originally posted by Autokrat
I'm curious, but why exactly to you get your panties into a bunch over JRPGs? Its like every time you talk about them you have to look down on WPRGs for some bizarre reason and dismiss some of the best games ever made simply because they don't follow the JRPG format.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm a girl (refer to my member details if you don't believe me) so I'll kindly ask that you speak to be a bit more politely so as not to hurt my feelings.

It's a subject I feel very strongly about and knowing how great JRPGs truly are, when people try to compare them with absolutely sh1t (WRPGs) it sometimes warrants an aggressive and somewhat violent response. It might be similar to if, say, someone tried to compare a modern day, entirely amateur philosopher to one of the great, classical philosophers. It's likely that you would feel strongly in your disagreement and want it be publicly known. Same thing here.

And there are an innumerable amount of bad ass JRPGs out there.

The very top tier of the list would include (but not be limited to):

Star Ocean: Till the End of Time
Tales of Phantasia
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy IX
Xenogears
Xenosaga I-III
Chrono Trigger
Radical Dreamers (more of a visual novel to be fair)
Chrono Cross
Golden Sun
Golden Sun: The Lost Age
Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King
Suikoden I-V (yes all 5)
Vagrant Story
Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean
Baten Kaitos Origins
Valkyrie Profile
Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria
Radiata Stories
Grandia I-III

BTW:

Originally posted by Autokrat
However a lot of JRPGs suffer from having a retarded teenage emo protagonist with an IQ of about 80 that runs around and bashes things over the head with his huge ass sword.

Name 10.

On topic, guys. If you want to discuss roleplaying I can just move this over to the Video Games forum...