Batdude and Kahn's Match #3: Team JaketheBank/Smurph vs. darthgoober/Blair Wind

Originally posted by Badabing
I've read the prep and battle a few times. Anything I didn't know offhand I had to look up in my comics.

The debates back and forth were pretty decent. I thought both teams did a good job of sparring and countering. Scans were applicable, for the most part, and in links or thumbnails. Also, there was a pleasant lack of personal digs in this match. Always appreciated.

I'll break this down the best I can. I've written down some notes as a reference so I can be succinct.

There's always a leap of faith in these tournaments. Using characters, meshing powers, etc. So I try to keep an open mind.

The good.
-I thought both teams did a decent job. There was some holes in explanations/proof but I thought each team countered any claims to the contrary well.

-DNA transfer/transmutation for teammates and memory/knowledge sharing are areas which get muddled. All in all, I bought that both teams could accomplish that feat as well. Again, a few holes but overall I bought it.

Team Smurph/JTB had a plan which was very simple and straight forward. There wasn't much in the way of speculation or any overreaching involved. Sersi is a character I'm overly familiar with and they provided enough scans and explanation for me.

Team Blair/Goober had a much more elaborate, multi-faceted plan involving several components. There was also scans available with good explanations. I was a bit more familiar overall with their team.

The bad.
Team Blair/Goober had one of the most complex prep plans I've personally read in a tournament. It was very imaginative. I did have a few problems however. I felt team Smurph/JTB brought up good points regarding some major parts of your plan. The time constraint of 5 minutes. Even with Surfer's speed and a Kryptonian's speed, I found it very hard to believe that your team could do everything in your prep within 5 minutes. I know they're fast and think extremely fast but I wasn't buying that they could do all that in 5 minutes. To recap they: transfer memories and knowledge, Sufer gives Doom a portion of the PC, transmute Doom to Kryptonian, create the sun lamps powerful enough to charge a Kryptonian (which wasn't really supported), add Doom's tech to Eradicator's tech, make energy absorbers, make psi blockers, make emotional manipulation machine, create magic/cosmic shield, make anti-black hole field, make force field nullifiers, make do not enter zone, cast Cyttorak Bands all in 5 minutes.

[b]Originality
Blair/Goober - 4/5
Smurph/JTB - 3/5

Again, Blair & Goob had a very imaginative plan imo.

Effectiveness
Blair/Goob - 2/5
Smurph/JTB - 4/5

Smurph and JTB used blunt force trauma to it's best imo. The 5 minute prep time took away the effectiveness for team Blair/Goob.

Debating Skill
Blair/Goob - 3.5/5
Smurph/JKT - 3.5/5

The ugly. 😛
Vote for team Smurph/JTB. [/B]

Originally posted by Starscream M
the debating skill score is out of 10 points. so I guess that translates to 7/10 for both teams.

Delph's Vote:

Where to begin...

There is quite a lot to read in this thread, but hilariously enough, it was actually quite easy to judge due a couple of details which I found humorous.

- Both teams have essentially the exact same plan, but would have you believe that it wouldn't work for the other though they both have almost identical powersets. Classic.

- B-Dub and Goober improve upon this template by utilizing Eradicator and his "No Contact" zone tech, which will be weakening their opponents, as well as Doom's magic. solid.

-Here's the humorous part: Smurph goes out of his way to argue that in modifying Dr. Doom and turning him into a Kryptonian via transmutation, the exact same plan which he and Jake employ for Sersi and Sinestro, Doom would be powerless because it takes time to absorb sunlight. However, the battle takes place on an Earth-like planet where sunlight would seemingly be abundant, and if it were not, Sersi and Sinestro would be powerless as well because Smurph and Jake DID NOT infuse either of their characters with sunlight during prep (attention to detail guys), meaning Henshaw would be the only powered up Kryptonian if I follow that line of reasoning. Also, I wasn't buying the argument that the solar lamps wouldn't power Doom up, coupled with the fact that Goober said in prep that Surfer would also add energy to him:

Create Sun Lamps – 10 sec
Surfer, knowing the necessary sunlight types due to Eradicator's knowledge, uses transmutation to turn Doom's armor - aside from his forcefield generator which we're going to reconfigure especially to resist the gravity present in a Black Hole - into a series of super high intensity "sun lamps" that emit the same solar energy as both a yellow and a young blue sun. If the armor won't provide quite enough material, he'll throw in some energy too

Attention to detail.

- Energy draining seems to be the main trump card being played in this tournament, and B-Dub and Goob utilized that along with restraining their opponents.

Since both teams did the same thing the few variances B-Dub and Goob provided provided the edge and win

My vote: B-Dub & Goober

As for the point system allotments:

Originality:
Smurph/Jake 1/5
Goober/B-Dub 1.5/5

Can't give points for originality when both teams have the same plan. "No Contact" Zone, black hole blast, and Crimson Bands give B-Dub & Goob a very slight edge in concerns to originality, but tipped the fight in their favor.

Effectiveness:
Smurph/Jake 3/5
Goober/B-Dub 4/5

It was a good plan on the part of both teams. Goob & B-Dub just covered more bases and were more thorough. Can't really detract from what Smurph and Jake were trying to do with their plan of attack and argument save for a couple oversights. Solid all around though.

Debating Skills:
Smurph/Jake 6/10
Goober/B-Dub 7/10

As I said above, solid all around. Smurph and Jake were in sync and really tried to hammer those holes into Goob and B-Dub's plan, and Goob and B-Dub had reprisals for it. Slight edge to B-Dub and Goob for better attention to detail in overall their plan. It was long winded, but with purpose.

Good match ya'll.

-Delph Digler

Ok, on to it. You bastards needs to learn the art of brevity.

- I'd really enjoy bats and Kahn making in-thread announcements about legality of certain things. Judges can't be expected to sift through other threads to see if a ruling was made on something they're wondering about. And, frankly, we can't trust the participants to be forthcoming about all rulings.

- I had no preconceptions coming in. The matter manip. on both teams meant that any ideas anyone had coming in would be shot to hell with both teams' respective prep.

- Speaking of, I warned everyone about the amount of prep that was allotted in this tourney. And I hear there's rule changes to be made soon as a result. hate to say I told you so, but...

- I suppose I need to start with what aspects of blair/goob's prep I believed. Some but not all is the nutshell version. Somewhere in the part where they had Doom granting Kryptonian powers to others, after being given his own Kryptonian powers only moments before, based on a theoretical shield to create blue sunlight, I stopped believing the layered powered transfers would all work. Also, defining Eradicator's non-alien shield as "anyone but us" seems to vague and conceptual to actually be true. Does he have enough knowledge of Eternal DNA, for example, to create a block to instantly identify them? Or to differentiate the members of his own team from those of the same species? Iffy. Sun lamps are fine, but would be a small amount of radiation, certainly not a sun's worth.

- I've used those Surfer power-transfer scans in a tourney before. Nobody called us out on the "it takes 50% of Surfer's power to do so" thing. Blair/goob weren't as fortunate. They later recanted to a smaller percentage, but it's still not increasing the total percentage of "Surfer Power" in the match, just spreading it around.

- That said, it's Doom with power cosmic, plus low-level Kryptonian powers (I don't think he'd be fully amped) plus his own powers, tech, and magic. Scary, scary combo.

- I still have yet to see conclusive evidence that rings can simply be replicated from nowhere. BN #6 was filled with caveats for when such things could actually take place. That said, Sinestro is essentially the Guardian for his Corps, the rings are technological in nature, and the team has matter manip. So like the last match I judged, I went ahead and assumed it would be possible.

- Surfer can absorb energy, yes. But we've seen an (albeit probably non-canon) crossover Surfer v. GL which I think is a fairly accurate portrayal of how such a battle would go. Surfer wins, but GLs are capable of producing energies that rival Surfer's own. No way he's absorbing multiple yellow rings.

- In a battle like this, collateral damage would be massive. So, for example, could Doom's psionic reverser work? Hell yes, and effectively. But would it last through the battle? Almost assuredly no. This goes for most outside creations, which hurts Blair/goob more than Smurph/Jake.

- Erad's energy absorption and versatility seems enough in my mind to hinder Jake/Smurph's team quite a bit. They certainly have more raw power, so the issue was always in how much of their story I could reasonably believe.

- Despite similar strategies (delph pointed this out sufficiently) and similar power sets, I thought Smurph/Jake did a better job covering experience transfer. Experience with powers accounts for a lot. Doom has wielded the power cosmic before, so it didn't hurt Blair/goob a ton, but it was a point of contention with me.

- Needed to find a damn tiebreaker, since I went back and forth a few times here. And one thing that stuck out to me that was essentially ignored by Smurph/Jake was the Crimson Bands. A heck of an early-in-the-match trump card to take the initiative. Jake mentions a couple times that it was broken out of, but it's also held some immensely powerful entities for long periods of time. Bands + speedblitz curbstomp, regardless of prep nonsense or if they can get the whole team in them (even 1-2 would be an advantage) is enough for me to believe that the edge would go to team "Goober's Fanboy Favorites."

Vote for Blair/Goob.

Originality:
Smurph/Jake 1/5
Goober/B-Dub 1/5

Zomg Kryptonian genes! uhuh I have yet to be thrown off guard yet in this tourney with a plan.

Effectiveness:
Smurph/Jake 3/5
Goober/B-Dub 3/5

Damn close in most aspects.

Debating Skills:
Smurph/Jake 6/10
Goober/B-Dub 7/10

Jake was solid in his first go-about. The others all know what's up. Blair and Jake could've been around more, but meh. A fairly textbook back and forth.

Originally posted by Digi
I'd really enjoy bats and Kahn making in-thread announcements about legality of certain things. Judges can't be expected to sift through other threads to see if a ruling was made on something they're wondering about. And, frankly, we can't trust the participants to be forthcoming about all rulings.

Quit bitching. uhuh

Originally posted by illadelph12
[b]Originality:
Smurph/Jake 1/5
Goober/B-Dub 1.5/5

Can't give points for originality when both teams have the same plan. "No Contact" Zone, black hole blast, and Crimson Bands give B-Dub & Goob a very slight edge in concerns to originality, but tipped the fight in their favor.
[/B]

Originally posted by Digi
[b]Originality:
Smurph/Jake 1/5
Goober/B-Dub 1/5

Zomg Kryptonian genes! uhuh I have yet to be thrown off guard yet in this tourney with a plan.
[/B]

...Just a joke. You guys voted for us... we cool 🙂 .

All right. After reading through this monstrosity a few times, I think I've come to a decision.

Overall, I think both teams did a good job with the debating. Neither teams' plan was close to perfect and I enjoyed the back-and-forths between the teams as they defended their flaws and attacked their opponents'.

I wish teams would realize that transferring additional herald level-power sets and the prerequisite experience in using them effectively isn't something that can normally be done in a matter of moments. Slight modifications that make a character's existing powers more effective are more creditable in my mind, but I digress.

Unquestionably, I think this came down to an issue of quality versus quantity. BW and DG's opening post was....monumental to say the least. It was creative, through, detailed, very impressive, and entirely too complex for even their team to have a chance in hell of accomplishing in the 5 minutes given, imo. If they had 5 days instead of 5 minutes - maybe.

JtB and Smurph's prep wasn't perfect either, but they at least chose a prep plan that I believe they could accomplish in the time given, questions of its effectiveness aside.

Originality
Smurph/JtB - 3/5
BW/DG - 4/5

BW and DG's prep was beautiful much in the same way as nuclear explosion or multiple train crash. Smurph and JtB's was solid (if less ambitious) combination of their characters abilities. Good job all around.

Effectiveness
JtB/Smurph - 3.5/5
BW/DG - 1.5/5

More isn't always better. I just couldn't bring myself to believe that BW and DG could do all that they claimed during prep, which brought up the problem of what to dismiss as they continued during the fight. It just dug a hole for them from the start of the fight, imo.

Debating Skills
Smurph/JtB 8/10
DG/BW 8.5/10

Again, I think both sides did extremely well with DG and BW's veteran tournament experience coming through in places.

So, I have to give my vote (and it was closer than I expected in the end, to Smurph and JtB. Good match everyone.

so, it's 2 - 2.

What now Khan?

Originally posted by Starscream M
so, it's 2 - 2.

What now Khan?

Originally posted by darthgoober
We wait for C-Master.

I've already sent him a PM letting him know the situation. 👆

Originally posted by Starscream M
so, it's 2 - 2.

What now Khan?

😛

I'll be disappointed if Smurph doesn't win. He promised to meet me in the finals 313

Ok, so here I am. Sorry I was out taking care of business, but here is my evaluation at last. 😉

I read through, and it was very interesting, good job all around, with enough sarcasm to keep things interesting, but without the personal attacks that make things childish. Both teams had good characters, and did wonderful jobs describing their strategies.

I liked how Team Smurph/Jake (SJ) had a simple plan that seemed very powerful, but I liked how Darth/Blair (DB) had a plan that enticed the imagination.

I felt that the SJ team's plan was short, but could be done reliably more often than not, and was simply more effective in that aspect in regards of what it takes to make it work.

Effectiveness:
SJ(4.5/5)
DB(4/5)

Creativity:
SJ(3/5)
DB(3.5/5)

Debating skills is really the hardest part for me. It's soooo close and all the pressure is on me. The overall debate was good, of course team DB having more experience. They did really good and presented their experience well, but everybody did very well. I guess what breaks this for me is simply the fact that the SJ team seemed more effective on a more consistent basis. This is the way I see it, so for the overall debate.

The match/debate:

SJ (3.5/5)
DB (3.4/5)

They were verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry close and hard to choose, the veteran players like Blair of course did not disappoint, however with the setup in this match it seemed like team SJ would get more consistent wins, so my conclusion rests with team SJ.

Phrew! This match was just way too close.... way wayyyy too close.

Wow, looking at the points allotted to to each team from the judges just shows how close these matches can be. This is the first match I've judged where I literally took notes while reading and re-reading through the posts.

Yea, one of the best matches I've seen. I'm honored to have participated. Nobody got "owned" or "stomped" in this match.

YouTube video

Immense thanks goes out to all the judges. I know it can't have been easy to work through, and we actually got five detailed judgements with point allotments in less than a week. For a match consisting pretty much entirely of posts nearing the size limit, that's fantastic.

Great match guys.

^ Agreed. Good match, guys.

Congrats guys, give'em Hell next round.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Hey give us a little credit, we ARE the only one's who found a way around the confines of the prep lounge. I mean I know shrinking isn't a new concept or anything, but the other participants thought it was pretty ingenius and Kahn/bats are going to change the rules because of it 😠 😛 .

...Just a joke. You guys voted for us... we cool 🙂 .

Originally posted by psycho gundam
at least they waited till after your match to change it 🙂