Originally posted by dadudemon
How do you know?Why is it not more likely a genjutus than actual speed? There's nothing to prove that what Sasuke did was speed or not speed. We simply don't know.
Edit - And from what we see in the anime, it's more likely a genjutsu. It'd have to be because Sasuke cannot teleport.
start at 9m30sec
thats foot speed my friend you can see the dust trial at his feet
Originally posted by dadudemon
How do you know?Why is it not more likely a genjutus than actual speed? There's nothing to prove that what Sasuke did was speed or not speed. We simply don't know.
Edit - And from what we see in the anime, it's more likely a genjutsu. It'd have to be because Sasuke cannot teleport.
No Sharingan. We've never seen him use Genjutsu through eye-contact without it.
Also, Yungz pointed out the dust trail. It was speed, and we also see Sasuke start to move in the anime.
~ Kirabi's feats are also worth mentioning, particularly the one where he appears on a mountain that was about a mile away just after Juugo tries to attack him. It most likely was a speed feat.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No Sharingan. We've never seen him use Genjutsu through eye-contact without it.
Also, Yungz pointed out the dust trail. It was speed, and we also see Sasuke start to move in the anime.~ Kirabi's feats are also worth mentioning, particularly the one where he appears on a mountain that was about a mile away just after Juugo tries to attack him. It most likely was a speed feat.
yea that speed feat is up there in the rankings
Originally posted by yungz22
http://www.crunchyroll.com/media-530452/naruto-shippuden-117/start at 9m30sec
thats foot speed my friend you can see the dust trial at his feet
I've seen that.
However, there's three problems with using that as evidence:
1. It is not canon.
2. it doesn't prove or disprove anythign I've stated. It just adds to the ambiguity.
3. We haven't seen Naruto in Sage mode, yet.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No Sharingan. We've never seen him use Genjutsu through eye-contact without it.
Also, Yungz pointed out the dust trail. It was speed, and we also see Sasuke start to move in the anime.~ Kirabi's feats are also worth mentioning, particularly the one where he appears on a mountain that was about a mile away just after Juugo tries to attack him. It most likely was a speed feat.
When did the sharingan become necessary to do genjutsu?
Originally posted by dadudemon
I've seen that.However, there's three problems with using that as evidence:
1. It is not canon.
2. it doesn't prove or disprove anythign I've stated. It just adds to the ambiguity.
3. We haven't seen Naruto in Sage mode, yet.
When did the sharingan become necessary to do genjutsu?
We've never seen him use Genjutsu through eye-contact without it.
If you're talking about the the dust trail being non-canon, it isn't, it's there in the manga. Also, I don't get how the anime paints it as genjutsu, considering we see Sasuke start to move.
~ That speed feat of Naruto's is also ambiguous to an extent, as he could have had help from a clone, after all, he moves that way again when trying to hit Deva Path with the Rasengan.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
We've never seen him use Genjutsu [b]through eye-contact without it. [/B]
But the burden is on you to prove that he has to use his sharingan to do genjutsu. Since we know for a fact that he doesn't, there's not point in stating that Sasuke cannot do genjutsu without his sharingan.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If you're talking about the the dust trail being non-canon, it isn't, it's there in the manga. Also, I don't get how the anime paints it as genjutsu, considering we see Sasuke start to move.
1. Prove it.
2. But it's instant. Unless he was doing a trasnportation jutsu, it was genjutsu.
3. We see Sasuke move...then things get blank...then he instantly appers right in front of him, then he does another transport thingie and ends up towards Sasuke's left. He either teleported twice or he used genjutsu.
Fact is, Naruto has the fastest speed feat from the manga. No other speed feat can comare on the most literal level. You cannot prove, with the manga, that anything was faster than Naruto's speed feat as Naruto's speed feat is the only one assigned a time and a distance to.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But the burden is on you to prove that he has to use his sharingan to do genjutsu. Since we know for a fact that he doesn't, there's not point in stating that Sasuke cannot do genjutsu without his sharingan.
Again, I never stated that he cannot use genjutsu at all unless he is using his Sharingan.
I stated that he has never been shown to trap someone in a genjutsu using his eyes only when his Sharingan was not active. Two very different scenarios.
If he does indeed use genjutsu without hand-seals or his sharingan AND through eye-contact only, then fair enough, I'll admit I'm wrong.
He isn't shown making hand-seals in this particular instance, nor is he shown using his Sharingan.
Originally posted by dadudemon
1. Prove it.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/349/16/
Haven't circled it, but you can see the dust trail near Sasuke's feet. The general direction of 'increase' (i.e. dissipation of particles) is away from Sasuke showing movement.
The translator was also kind enough to put down a note for the large sfx figure.
Originally posted by dadudemon
2. But it's instant. Unless he was doing a trasnportation jutsu, it was genjutsu.3. We see Sasuke move...then things get blank...then he instantly appers right in front of him, then he does another transport thingie and ends up towards Sasuke's left. He either teleported twice or he used genjutsu.
Bull.
a) We never see him appear right in front of that CS2 user, nor is it explicitly shown or implied that he appears in front of the guy for an instant, slash him, then move again. What is implied is that Sasuke strikes the CS2 dude as he moves past him. It was one fluid continuous 'step'.
b) Naruto's speed feat was 'instant', yet I don't see you writing it off as a teleportation jutsu. Sasuke's first speed feat in Part II was 'instant' and Yamato is certain he moved. Sakura never mentions anything about a genjutsu, and since she has superb chakra control, she most likely would have known if she were in one.
~ Body-flicker technique; basic ninja 'flash-step-like teleport-looking high speed movement' jutsu. Virtually all high-speed ninjas use this.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Fact is, Naruto has the fastest speed feat from the manga. No other speed feat can comare on the most literal level. You cannot prove, with the manga, that anything was faster than Naruto's speed feat as Naruto's speed feat is the only one assigned a time and a distance to.
This is not me trying to prove Sasuke or anyone else had a faster feat than that 'off-screen movement' speed feat of Naruto's. This is me trying to disprove Sasuke's feat being genjutsu or teleportation-based.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But the burden is on you to prove that he has to use his sharingan to do genjutsu. Since we know for a fact that he doesn't, there's not point in stating that Sasuke cannot do genjutsu without his sharingan.1. Prove it.
2. But it's instant. Unless he was doing a trasnportation jutsu, it was genjutsu.
3. We see Sasuke move...then things get blank...then he instantly appers right in front of him, then he does another transport thingie and ends up towards Sasuke's left. He either teleported twice or he used genjutsu.
Fact is, Naruto has the fastest speed feat from the manga. No other speed feat can comare on the most literal level. You cannot prove, with the manga, that anything was faster than Naruto's speed feat as Naruto's speed feat is the only one assigned a time and a distance to.
your trying to give sasuke a new ability without him ever doing it ... thats just like saying suigetsu can use lightning jutsu even though we have never seen him do it or rock lee can use shadow clones even tho we havent seen it... you arent making any sense. sasuke is a sharingan user any genjutsu he casts is with his eyes.... which means that sasuke didnt use genjutsu because no sharaingan was activated. Itach is the only person who has cast any genjutsu without using any seals or with his finger
Originally posted by yungz22
your trying to give sasuke a new ability without him ever doing it ... thats just like saying suigetsu can use lightning jutsu even though we have never seen him do it or rock lee can use shadow clones even tho we havent seen it... you arent making any sense. sasuke is a sharingan user any genjutsu he casts is with his eyes.... which means that sasuke didnt use genjutsu because no sharaingan was activated. Itach is the only person who has cast any genjutsu without using any seals or with his finger
No I'm not. Saying Sasuke can use Genjutsu is like saying I like donuts. "Duh."
Saying Sasuke can move that fast is like saying he can teleport: that's simply not true. You're the one giving him abilities he doesn't have.
It's either teleportion or it's a genjutsu. On top of that, we really don't know how fast Sasuke is as the Anime isn't canon. It's just an interpretation.
We did see Lee's movement speed, however. It was a blur, but was could still see his speed in the manga and anime.
Also, you have no way to disprove or prove that Sasuke was using Genjutsu. You also have no way to prove or disprove that Sasuke can't do genjutsu in a similar fashion as Itachi. In fact, we DO know that Sasuke can do Genjutsu without any noticable signs. See his fight with Itachi. The first half of their fight was completely had in Genjutsu and we don't see either of them do hand seals.
That would make sense since Oro was Sasuke's teacher so he would teach/tell Sasuke to develop an affinity for Gentjusu to the point of being on par with Itachi...at worst, Sasuke is good enough to keep from getting destroyed.
I think what Danzo said about Sasuke's ability with Genjutsu compared to Itachi isn't true at all, but just someting he was doing to get Sasuke angry.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No I'm not. Saying Sasuke can use Genjutsu is like saying I like donuts. "Duh."Saying Sasuke can move that fast is like saying he can teleport: that's simply not true. You're the one giving him abilities he doesn't have.
It's either teleportion or it's a genjutsu. On top of that, we really don't know how fast Sasuke is as the Anime isn't canon. It's just an interpretation.
We did see Lee's movement speed, however. It was a blur, but was could still see his speed in the manga and anime.
Also, you have no way to disprove or prove that Sasuke was using Genjutsu. You also have no way to prove or disprove that Sasuke can't do genjutsu in a similar fashion as Itachi. In fact, we DO know that Sasuke can do Genjutsu without any noticable signs. See his fight with Itachi. The first half of their fight was completely had in Genjutsu and we don't see either of them do hand seals.
That would make sense since Oro was Sasuke's teacher so he would teach/tell Sasuke to develop an affinity for Gentjusu to the point of being on par with Itachi...at worst, Sasuke is good enough to keep from getting destroyed.
I think what Danzo said about Sasuke's ability with Genjutsu compared to Itachi isn't true at all, but just someting he was doing to get Sasuke angry.
Yea he didnt use hand seals but he was using the sharingan.....you cant just change sasuke's whole fighting style to your likeing just to disprove a point. sasuke doesnt know any teleportaion jutsu it is proven that sasuke does have the shunshin jutsu which is movement at extreme speed.. Yamato, Tobi, and deidara have seen it and praised his speed.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/07/-notice how far he is itz farther than the cs2 user he did it against
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/10/
if it was teleportation there would be no dust trail there is a dust trail and the sound effect says fast movement on the pic in the post before and in this one should i show another
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/307/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/307/14/ this was not teleportation because yamato said he fast
Originally posted by yungz22
Yea he didnt use hand seals but he was using the sharingan.....you cant just change sasuke's whole fighting style to your likeing just to disprove a point. sasuke doesnt know any teleportaion jutsu it is proven that sasuke does have the shunshin jutsu which is movement at extreme speed.. Yamato, Tobi, and deidara have seen it and praised his speed.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/07/-notice how far he is itz farther than the cs2 user he did it against
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/10/if it was teleportation there would be no dust trail there is a dust trail and the sound effect says fast movement on the pic in the post before and in this one should i show another
1. That's not what we were talking about, so this is a strawman argument.
2. It clearly shows his speed as not instant as Tobi has enough time ot think about him being fast.
Originally posted by yungz22
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/307/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/307/14/ this was not teleportation because yamato said he fast
Yamato does say he's fast. But, he notices his traveling (as shown by the "fast" perception" lines in the background in his panel.)
It's definitely not teleportion, and it's definitely not genjutus. It's just really fast travel, but, still, it cannot be proven to be faster than Naruto's feat. If you want to go the illogical route of "panels" as a function of time, we can:
First, here's Naruto proving that he's everybit as stronger if not stronger than the Raikage:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/441/12/
He kicks the mo fo into a rock, really far away, and he creates a "damage are" in an area larger than the one Raikage created with mr. berserk. That's a direct feat to feat comparison with Naruto showing he's stronger.
Also, shortly thereafter, he covers a similar distance, in one panel, that Sasuke covered. Well, wait, he covered the same distance that sasuke covered in 2 panels, to be exact.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No I'm not. Saying Sasuke can use Genjutsu is like saying I like donuts. "Duh."Saying Sasuke can move that fast is like saying he can teleport: that's simply not true. You're the one giving him abilities he doesn't have.
It's either teleportion or it's a genjutsu. On top of that, we really don't know how fast Sasuke is as the Anime isn't canon. It's just an interpretation.
So you're just going to ignore the dust on the ground near Sasuke's feet, the SFX figure, and the trail of blood from the sword? Nice.
You are also giving him an ability he has never demonstrated before. We do not see him make any hand-seals prior to dispatching the CS2 user. Sasuke's Sharingan was obviously not active.
Every time he uses genjutsu, he either has his Sharingan activated, or uses hand-seals, or both.
He has NEVER used a genjutsu without either his Sharingan or hand-seals. Saying that he can perform genjutsu without using his Sharingan or hand-seals when he has never demonstrated the ability to do so before, is giving him abilities.
I have also never seen anyone else trap someone in genjutsu using eye-contact alone (and without the Sharingan activated).
It was speed. He was already shown to be stupidly fast.
Also, 2 words + expletive...
OCCAM'S RAZOR B*TCH, OCCAM'S RAZOOOOOR 😛
Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, you have no way to disprove or prove that Sasuke was using Genjutsu. You also have no way to prove or disprove that Sasuke can't do genjutsu in a similar fashion as Itachi. In fact, we DO know that Sasuke can do Genjutsu without any noticable signs. See his fight with Itachi. The first half of their fight was completely had in Genjutsu and we don't see either of them do hand seals.
Irrelevant. Yes, they don't use hand-seals, but they do have their Sharingan activated during that.
In case you haven't realized, the Sharingan does allow the user to trap someone in a genjutsu with eye-contact alone. No such ability is demonstrated by anyone when the Sharingan is not activated or is not there.
We know Kakashi used some form of hypnosis with the Sharingan against Zabuza when he was fighting him (after Naruto and Sasuke force Zabuza to release him). It isn't illogical to think that more skilled Sharingan users would be able to fully trap people in a genjutsu using eye-contact alone when their Sharingan is active. That's how Tsukiyomi is shown being used.
So basically,
Sharingan active + eye contact = Genjutsu can be used and is shown in the manga.
Sharigan not present/active + eye contact only = Not yet demonstrated, so as of now, not possible to trap someone in genjutsu this way.
Hand-seals = duh.
Hand-seals + Sharingan + eye-contact = OVERKILL!!!
Originally posted by dadudemon
1. That's not what we were talking about, so this is a strawman argument.2. It clearly shows his speed as not instant as Tobi has enough time ot think about him being fast.
Yamato does say he's fast. But, he notices his traveling (as shown by the "fast" perception" lines in the background in his panel.)
It's definitely not teleportion, and it's definitely not genjutus. It's just really fast travel, but, still, it cannot be proven to be faster than Naruto's feat. If you want to go the illogical route of "panels" as a function of time, we can:
First, here's Naruto proving that he's everybit as stronger if not stronger than the Raikage:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/441/12/
He kicks the mo fo into a rock, really far away, and he creates a "damage are" in an area larger than the one Raikage created with mr. berserk. That's a direct feat to feat comparison with Naruto showing he's stronger.
Also, shortly thereafter, he covers a similar distance, in one panel, that Sasuke covered. Well, wait, he covered the same distance that sasuke covered in 2 panels, to be exact.
My links were not irrelevent they were all example to back up that what sasuke did was not genjutsu. plus the anime link i posted backs up everything i posted making all my links both anime and manga canon. It seems like you are in denial especially when you are refusing the fact that when you run you kick up dirt.anime gives the manga movement. Its not like everything in this manga is non canon only the parts that have nothing to do with the manga are.Things like filler and extra fighting in fights are non canon. Not the movement in between panels come on man be real.
ok the link you posted there are things wrong with it. the destruction naruto caused with his kick is no where as big as raikage's punch are you crazy. also a punch and a kick are too different things if you didnt notice. to compare strength fairly you have to compare a raikage punch with a naruto punch or a raikage kick with a naruto kick
compare:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/441/12/-Naruto
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/462/04/Raikage
you say i go illogical with using a panel as a function of time but that is exactly what you are doing with naruto's speed feat. All of my links that have to do with sasuke are backed up by anime which shows movement and time. come on man you are contradicting your self.
Originally posted by King Kandy
lol, that was obviously genjutsu. They saw kunai hitting them that weren't really there. It was an illusion.
actually im right it was like what sasuke did to suigetsu and jugo.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Orochimaru trapped Sasuke and Sakura in a genjutsu without seals or sharingan, and Sasuke knows his jutsus.
That isn't expressively genjutsu. Sasuke himself states it was just his fear and Orochimaru's killing intent, not genjutsu. Orochimaru confirms Sasuke's comment about fear later.