Dark phoenix

Started by galactusischere6 pages
Originally posted by the ninjak
When time changes the M'kraan crystal spreads out and consumes the entire galaxy.
The M'kraan crystal is like the hard drive and the IG and UN tools that can manipulate it slightly depending on the user. Thanos is a much better vessal than Jean Grey but Phoenix chose her because of her heroic nature + Omega Level. But she was'nt as smart as him.

Phoenix has crappy durability. One well-placed blast/pmp-slap would kill her. She can come back to life as many times as she wants, it would do her no good, when Galactus has tech that can take the BEYONDER's POWERS.
UN can destroy and remake the entire MULTI-VERSE in a BLINK of an eye in the hands of a mortal. In the hands of Galactus it would do alot more damage.

Just admit it Phoenix is a lightweight abstract.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Only one Abraxas. Only one true Galactus. Galactus has only truly died ONCE. Abraxas wasn't freed.

Abraxas could only be killed by the UN. He was destroying universes by just entering them. He was truly a multi-versal being.

In no WAY is Abraxas>MJJ

Originally posted by nicamarvin
In no WAY is Abraxas>MJJ

Abraxas=Destruction
Mad Jim Japers=Most powerful Human Mutant

Destoyer of all reality>Mutant reality warper

And Abraxas never went to Oblivion, he was only restarted, just incase you were going to say that

Originally posted by galactusischere
Abraxas would kill Oblivion and Jaspers together.... 😮‍💨
..... 😆 Nothing Kills Oblivion you FOOL....... 🙄

Originally posted by nicamarvin
..... 😆 Nothing Kills Oblivion you FOOL....... 🙄

Well, I admit I was exaggerating, but Abraxas is more powerful than either of the two IMO.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Well, I admit I was exaggerating
DUDE I OWNED you on that ONE..... 😆

Originally posted by galactusischere
Phoenix has crappy durability. One well-placed blast/pmp-slap would kill her. She can come back to life as many times as she wants, it would do her no good, when Galactus has tech that can take the BEYONDER's POWERS.
UN can destroy and remake the entire MULTI-VERSE in a BLINK of an eye in the hands of a mortal. In the hands of Galactus it would do alot more damage.

Just admit it Phoenix is a lightweight abstract.

The UN is an object that can always be made by minds that are capable but the M'kraan crystal has only been there since the beginning of said universe!

Admittedly the UN is older than the MC which is in the end just a tool!
Phoenix is an entity that can't die and can destroy Solar systems.
The M'kraan crystal can destroy an entire universe if activated! And the Phoenix protects it if absolutely nescesary.

Originally posted by the ninjak
The UN is an object that can always be made by minds that are capable but the M'kraan crystal has only been there since the beginning of said universe!

Admittedly the UN is older than the MC which is in the end just a tool!
Phoenix is an entity that can't die and can destroy Solar systems.
The M'kraan crystal can destroy an entire universe if activated! And the Phoenix protects it if absolutely nescesary.

The UN remade the crystal with the MULTI-VERSE...
The Crystal is only UNIVERSAL. Galactus is beyond that. The UN is a part of Galactus. If Galactus eats the UN and Hes worldship+all of hes tech, then I don't think anyone short of LT would be able to stop him.

Galactus destroyed 3 Solar Systems + a Watcher(a galaxy buster at the very least) in a single blast as a sign of annoyance/revenge when he was at the brink of death.

Originally posted by galactusischere
If Galactus eats the UN and Hes worldship+all of hes tech, then I don't think anyone short of LT would be able to stop him.
😑

Originally posted by galactusischere
The UN remade the crystal with the MULTI-VERSE...
The Crystal is only UNIVERSAL. Galactus is beyond that. The UN is a part of Galactus. If Galactus eats the UN and Hes worldship+all of hes tech, then I don't think anyone short of LT would be able to stop him.

Galactus destroyed 3 Solar Systems + a Watcher(a galaxy buster at the very least) in a single blast as a sign of annoyance/revenge when he was at the brink of death.

Insane but cool....Galactus for the win!

Originally posted by nicamarvin
😑

Do u know how Doom stole Beyonder's omnipotence? By using galactus' tech(cosmic matter convertor) to create a machine that could drain all of Beyonder's power from him.

And UN>MJJ/Abraxas?Oblivion/Jamie Braddock

so all of the other contestants are out of the picture.

Originally posted by galactusischere It was 616 Galactus from the near FUTURE. Alternative TIME-LINE.

Irrelevant

Can you give us a fully detailed, accurate account of Galactus' life story from the current 616 version to this future version?
No. So in other words you’re unsure if this Galactus had the same power level and ability as the present one Celestial tampering aside? No guesswork or speculation, give me a Marvel verified account.
Cant do that? Theres a reason why we only use 616 characters in 616 debates. A future version of a character is just as ineligible as an alternate reality counterpart.

Originally posted by galactusischere all Tiamut did was manipulate Galactus into thinking that his cosmic hunger is insatiable.

Yes which is still a characteristic that 616 Galactus doesn’t have and you don’t know that its one that he could have because its not the same Galactus. Alternate reality versions of characters and their abilities cannot be used to speak for a 616 character. That’s a known rule within these forums and has been for years so lets drop the reference to this other Galactus.

Originally posted by galactusischere anyone on Galactus' level ever tried to kill Phoenix for good without caring for the fate of the universe/multi-verse?

It is canon that the Phoenix is completely and totally indestructible. You’d think its name would be a bit of a giveaway. The point is mentioned on panel and within its handbook entry

With that in mind, until we are shown otherwise in debates we take that as the case. Youre reading and debating about a Marvel property, Marvel has spoken.

Originally posted by galactusischere Galactus was doing that(and Phoenix was dying), Death, Roma, and Uatu came and told him that she is the life of the universe or something I don't remember.

Not the case at all.

“This instrument will liberate the essence of Phoenix from the physicality of its fleshly encasement”

The device was only ever removing the Force from its host.
However as it was bonded with Rachel, tearing it out of her was killing her, Phoenix, not the Phoenix Force.
As stated in Romas handbook entry chronicling the event, Roma warned Galactus not to slay Phoenix 2 Rachel. The Phoenix Force was never in any danger.

Originally posted by galactusischere And Phoenix has been defeated by FAR LESS!

So has Galactus. Galactus has been defeated by Thor, Galactus has been defeated by Alpha Flight. Every character has poor showings, however for the most part these can be explained away and are down to the circumstances surrounding said incidents. NOT a lack of power or ability by the characters as standard.

Originally posted by galactusischere When Galactus died during the Abraxas saga, and big A came out, it was stated that the only thing(s) short of the LT that could defeat Abraxas were Galactus and/or the UN. So Galactus had to be ressurected.

It never mentioned LT at all in that conversation. Poor recollection or an attempt to bolster your argument with a sneaky addition to the truth, its been noticed and rejected. It referred to the UN being the only thing that could stop Abraxas. Not LT and not Galactus by his own power, the UN. And we saw why, because of its ability to nullify and reset things. NOT because of a lack of power possessed by other cosmics in comparison to Abraxas. Continue that line of argument and youre basically saying Abraxas is greater than LT, the IG and Phoenix despite not having the feats to back that up.
Just making a point here, in your response do not go off on a tangent as to why you think Abraxas is greater than those named. Lets keep this about Galactus vs Phoenix. Thank you.

Originally posted by galactusischere 1- [url]http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/Branlactus/Fights%202/Phoenix/OwningPhoenix1.jpg 3- http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/Branlactus/Fights%202/Phoenix/OwningPhoenix2.jpg ^ When?

1st scan- Galactus “I do only what I must to survive”

“Look around you. Gaze upon this world…..victim to the titanic forces we unleashed.”

2nd scan convo follows on- “Whilst I hover near to death, my strength depleted, exhausted in our struggle, while you are neither hungry nor weary. Because you tap into a source of near limitless potential.”

So like I said, whether Galactus had fed or not, it wouldn’t have mattered for the very reasons he states himself. He requires external sustenance, he eats and he expends therefore he must eat again to replenish his resources. A Phoenix avatar is tapped into the life energies of the universe which is the very Phoenix Force itself. So in a fight with Phoenix Galactus’ resources would run out and then hes back to square one. He is a limited physical being with energy requirements. He is not self sustaining. That is why whilst in role he may be up there with the abstracts and Phoenix, but in terms of power he doesn’t cut it.

The point was also made by Maelstrom in Quasar#21:

“In the cosmic scheme of things, my position is more exalted than yours. Due to your Pre Big Bang origin you believe yourself to be unique among the beings of the universe.
Yet like the lowliest of creatures you depend upon outside sustenance. You are ruled by your enormous hunger, but you are not hunger itself. I on the other hand embody a concept”

For the reasons Galactus stated himself after his defeat by Phoenix and for the reasons Maelstrom avatar of Oblivion stated, Galactus is not on the level of abstracts or Phoenix, beings that don’t require physical bodies and are not limited by the need for external sustenance. He is merely a very powerful physical being with an important role.

Originally posted by galactusischere Galactus destroyed GALAXIES. GALAXIES. Thats more than Phoenix has done.

If you’re going to argue against a character at least make sure you’re clued up about the character first or you’ll just mark yourself as a biased debator. Phoenix has energized the bonds that contain the power of the M’kraan crystal, power that can wipe out the multiverse.

It is the only power on panel to wipe out the entire multiverse and have the point verified in a handbook. (No confusion between universe and multiverse in this case)

Phoenix has telekinetically manipulated the atoms of the entire universe in the palm of her hand. A top tier feat beyond any 616 Galactus or any Galactus has accomplished.

Originally posted by galactusischere And 616 Galactus is MULTI-VERSAL just like 616 Eternity/Infinity/Oblivion/Entropy/Abraxas/Death etc etc..

None of those entities are truly multiversal.
Sometimes, universes within marvel are referred to as multiverses, because these universes have multiple dimensions connected to them.

For example 616 has Asgard and the Dark Dimension and the Negative Zone, separate dimensions connected specifically to 616.

Then if you go pick up an Ultimate Universe comic, you'll see that connected to that universe is its own Negative Zone and other dimensions.

You can pick up a What If issue situated in an alternate universe and read tales of that different universe interacting with its own version of Asgard or the Dark Dimension that has nothing to do with the Asgard and Dark Dimensions we see in 616 comics.

That is why 616 and some of these universes are referred to as a multiverses sometimes as opposed to universes within the greater Marvel multiverse which includes all universes and their connected Dark Dimensions and Asgards and so on.

Beyonder talking of how 616 specifically can be seen as a multiverse in its own right and why:

“He decided to investigate a rather odd thing he had noticed about our universe. Namely that it is many layered. Composed of a seemingly endless number of dimensions. Indeed it is a multiverse”

So no. Galactus is not multiversal in terms of the true multiverse.

Originally posted by galactusischere And what is going to stop Galactus from eating the phoenix' life out of her? Phoenix was NEVER even mentioned in a comic in which Galactus' origins was shown.

Please keep up to date with continuity. She was, that is why in two of the recent Galactus handbook entries she is given credit for helping Galan to survive the destruction of the universe long enough for him to be guided by Eternity to the Cosmic Egg:
Nova Corps Files from Sept 2006

The Phoenix battled to repair the M’kraan crystal breach in this previous multiverse however the damage was too severe. However she battled long enough for Galan to survive and receive Eternitys guidance. Phoenix then reach out to all life and telepathically helped keep everyone calm it in the face of destruction. This foiled the Dweller in the Darknesses plans as he hoped the resultant destruction would cause enough fear across reality for him to become a major cosmic entity. Fear being his power source.




Official Handbook Fantastic Four 2005:

“Galan was filled with new energy and saved by the Phoenix Force of the dying universe”

And guess whose energies were contained within the Cosmic Egg that incubated Galactus and Eternity? 😖hifty:

As for what would stop Galactus from eating the Phoenix, perhaps because she is exponentially more powerful than he is. Furthermore, if he did absorb Phoenix, she wouldn’t die, she’d just come out the other end lol :

Here’s an avatar of the Phoenix Force being used to power a machine and then reforming itself afterwards:

As stated on panel and in the handbooks, indestructible mutable life force:

Originally posted by galactusischere But gotta give you props for the nice arguement and debating skills. 👆

Thank you 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It never mentioned LT at all in that conversation. Poor recollection or an attempt to bolster your argument with a sneaky addition to the truth, its been noticed and rejected.
Sorry, what I didn't make myself clear, what I mean was that there was no power short of LT at the moment in Marvel that could stop big A. Only the UN was capable of doing so.

It referred to the UN being the only thing that could stop Abraxas. Not LT and not Galactus by his own power, the UN. And we saw why, because of its ability to nullify and reset things. NOT because of a lack of power possessed by other cosmics in comparison to Abraxas. Continue that line of argument and youre basically saying Abraxas is greater than LT, the IG and Phoenix despite not having the feats to back that up.

Abraxas was definately not more powerful than the LT of courese. But there have been alot of debates going on early, and most people are saying that UN>>IG, despite the on-panel proof of IG stoping the UN's beam and turning it on the user. Anyways Abraxas was wreaking havoc across the multi-verse by just entering universes.
Just making a point here, in your response do not go off on a tangent as to why you think Abraxas is greater than those named. Lets keep this about Galactus vs Phoenix. Thank you.
All right.

1st scan- Galactus [B]“I do only what I must to survive”

“Look around you. Gaze upon this world…..victim to the titanic forces we unleashed.”

2nd scan convo follows on- “Whilst I hover near to death, my strength depleted, exhausted in our struggle, while you are neither hungry nor weary. Because you tap into a source of near limitless potential.”

That doesn't tell me anything. It only tells me that Galactus runs on a limited source while phoenix's source is nearly limitless. If Galactus was not starving then obviously he wouldn't have fallen, or atleast not so early. I mean it takes time for him to deplet his "precious" energies.

So like I said, whether Galactus had fed or not, it wouldn’t have mattered for the very reasons he states himself. He requires external sustenance, he eats and he expends therefore he must eat again to replenish his resources. A Phoenix avatar is tapped into the life energies of the universe which is the very Phoenix Force itself. So in a fight with Phoenix Galactus’ resources would run out and then hes back to square one. He is a limited physical being with energy requirements. He is not self sustaining. That is why whilst in role he may be up there with the abstracts and Phoenix, but in terms of power he doesn’t cut it.
Actually IMO Galactus is the most powerful abstract. Here is why:

"A few simple adjustments, based upon that data-and borrowing some technology from the device Galactus meant to use to absorb energy of the planet. And I have my 'sling' concealed in the breastplate of my armor"-Doom when he was going to absorb the Beyonder's powers.
http://www.toyark.com/attachments/1764d1248878504-secret-wars-dr.doom.jpg
And it has been stated that all of Galactus' tech do things that Galactus himself is capable of easily, he only creates/uses them because he doesn't want to waste energy.

The point was also made by Maelstrom in Quasar#21:

[B]“In the cosmic scheme of things, my position is more exalted than yours. Due to your Pre Big Bang origin you believe yourself to be unique among the beings of the universe.
Yet like the lowliest of creatures you depend upon outside sustenance. You are ruled by your enormous hunger, but you are not hunger itself. I on the other hand embody a concept”

Good point. But Galactus has shook hands with Eternity as equals.
1. http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7233/silversurfer198801011rf1.jpg
2. http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/751/silversurfer19880101213vz1.jpg
3. http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3002/silversurfer198801014xb7.jpg
Eternity says, of how he created the Celestials.
4. http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4267/silversurfer198801015yl1.jpg
5. http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2628/silversurfer198801016fx5.jpg
6. http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1998/silversurfer198801017zu9.jpg

If you’re going to argue against a character at least make sure you’re clued up about the character first or you’ll just mark yourself as a biased debator. Phoenix has energized the bonds that contain the power of the M’kraan crystal, power that can wipe out the multiverse.

It is the only power on panel to wipe out the entire multiverse and have the point verified in a handbook. (No confusion between universe and multiverse in this case)

Not really...
"Should Abraxas reach the nullifier before we do, [i]he can obliterate all the combined realities of the multiverse"-Reed

Originally posted by galactusischere [/i
]You're right. I just went back and re-read that issue.
got my scanner to work... here is the Scan: http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8282/fantasticfourv34618.jpg

Edit: I don't have an Image Shack account, I uploaded it as a guest, so IDK for how long the image is going to last.

BTW: Im sorry for not tagging my links with the [IMG] thing. Everytime I do that, my links don't function properly.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]Irrelevant

Can you give us a fully detailed, accurate account of Galactus' life story from the current 616 version to this future version?
No. So in other words you’re unsure if this Galactus had the same power level and ability as the present one Celestial tampering aside? No guesswork or speculation, give me a Marvel verified account.
Cant do that? Theres a reason why we only use 616 characters in 616 debates. A future version of a character is just as ineligible as an alternate reality counterpart.
Yes which is still a characteristic that 616 Galactus doesn’t have and you don’t know that its one that he could have because its not the same Galactus. Alternate reality versions of characters and their abilities cannot be used to speak for a 616 character. That’s a known rule within these forums and has been for years so lets drop the reference to this other Galactus.

Ummm.. 😮

[quote]It is canon that the Phoenix is completely and totally indestructible. You’d think its name would be a bit of a giveaway. The point is mentioned on panel and within its handbook entry

With that in mind, until we are shown otherwise in debates we take that as the case. Youre reading and debating about a Marvel property, Marvel has spoken.

Still, that still doesn't mean that someone on Galactus' level cannot kill her. And I remember an old comic, I don't exactly remember which team it was(either X-Men, X-Factor, or Excalibur), in which the Full Force of the Phoenix was being pushed back by mortals into something(think it was a black hole or some sort of warp/loop). The Full force, not dark Phoenix.

Not the case at all.

[B] “This instrument will liberate the essence of Phoenix from the physicality of its fleshly encasement”

The device was only ever removing the Force from its host.
However as it was bonded with Rachel, tearing it out of her was killing her, Phoenix, not the Phoenix Force.
As stated in Romas handbook entry chronicling the event, Roma warned Galactus not to slay Phoenix 2 Rachel. The Phoenix Force was never in any danger.
[/B]

Yup, so that pretty much still means that a hungry Galactus > a weak Phoenix host. But yea, I overlooked that bit, only the host was going to die.

So has Galactus. Galactus has been defeated by Thor, Galactus has been defeated by Alpha Flight. Every character has poor showings, however for the most part these can be explained away and are down to the circumstances surrounding said incidents. NOT a lack of power or ability by the characters as standard.

When Galactus was defeated by Thor, it was because his character was just established(it was his 2nd/3rd/4th appearence), and at the time was still considered to be skyfather level. And he was defeated by Alpha Flight, because big G's powers weren't working properly.
But point taken every powerful villain with evil/harmful intentions loses to heroes 99% of the time.

GALACTIC STORM. I WILL ADDRESS THE REST OF YOUR POSTS TOMORROW!
(and sorry if I had alot of typos/grammerical errors, I was in a hurry when I posted)

That's some fine filibusting.