Originally posted by Robtard
Hahaaha, that was funny, coming from the guy defending a movie Swiss-cheesed with plotholes and nonsense. Let me guess, you'll defend Will Smith KO'ing an alien through his bio-suit?Exactly, this is why things worked in the movie the way they did, realistically, humans would have lost.
Haha, that was great. Coming from the guy that makes points that were already addressed and countered. Lemme guess, you think a rigid bio-suite completely absorbed all kinetic energy from the alien's precious brain when Will Smith punched him?
Exactly, this is why worked in the movie they way the did, and, realistically, you're failing at playing devil's advocate.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Logic circuits, math, and data passing with hardware will be have near universal similarities. Working Boolean algebra is hardly a "recent human invention" if you know what I mean.Reverse engineering logic circuits would take quite some time, but it's not impossible. In the cyber security world, we call these NP-Complete and NP-Hard problems.
Most likely, it would be an NP-Hard problem, intially, but due to the requirement of some sort of boolean circuitry, we would eventually surmise information enough to turn subsequent reverse engineering into NP-Complete problems. Then, we would arrive at the ability to restore/repair the technology (the point it was in the movie), and finally, fully replicate the technology (a point they had not yet reached in the film.)
so it is your argument that all spoecies in the universe will invent compatible hardware when I had to return a BRAND NEW printer because it wasn't windows 7 compatible?
really?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Haha, that was great. Coming from the guy that makes points that were already addressed and countered. Lemme guess, you think a rigid bio-suite completely absorbed all kinetic energy from the alien's precious brain when Will Smith punched him?Exactly, this is why worked in the movie they way the did, and, realistically, you're failing at playing devil's advocate.
No, you've yet to counter a point I've made. I would think when building a protective bio-suit, that protects the wearer from say a crash-landing, it would be resistant to at least one punch. Call me crazy and illogical.
Then why defend it outside the realm of fiction as you are?
Umm, you're the only one defending the validity of this movie in terms of the real-world, so you'd be the Devil's Advocate, son.
Originally posted by inimalist
EDIT: also, the dog fighting was retarded. Any species with the technology for interstellar travel would be able to render all electronics (therefore military planes) inoperable. WE have this technology, or things very close to it.
Missed this the first time around...even though I quoted it.
That's not true or untrue. You've incorrectly assumed that another species, that developed on another planet, would even have the concept of an EMP as a weapon.
Their technology would develop in different ways than ours. Many factors contribute to how and what technologies develop...and at what rates.
Here are a few things:
1. The planet's available resources.
2. The sapients' ability to obtain those resources.
3. The sociology of that species: a very social but un-aggressive species would develop technologies much faster than an aggressive, unsocial one.
4. The current "relations" of the species: if they are constantly warring, technological development could go either way: too much warring and technology would be hard to develop; limited warring, and the "factions" that developed their technologies the most effectively, would win out.
5. Even the brain chemistry would play a role. It's possible or even highly likely that humans just have an affinity for math; something that may not be present/abundant in another species.
Then there is the simple fact that species may simply develop difference technologies sooner than others. For all we know, there's another species out there, with very similar anthropology and intelligence, that developed quantum computing before electronic computing.
One thing we can never do: assume that the other species does and should have similar technological developments as we do.
The film in question presented that to be the case: the aliens obviously had a clean, destructive, super weapon. But, it is not "smart" meaning it's a "point and aim" weapon. That species also appears to have integrated technology better into their "biology" with their, "bio-mechanical suits." It would seem the "writers" captured the reality that our technologies wouldn't exactly be the same. They would be superior in some ways, and we would be superior in others, even if they were far more advanced, on the whole.
the problem is, their technology is basically an advanced version of our own.
Basically, for your compatability argument to be true, they would have a similar enough technology to understand at least the basics of disabling it. If they had such different technology that the concept of EMP or similar devices (as EMP isn't the only way to disable electronics) there is no way a laptop computer would be able to interface with it.
Originally posted by Robtard
No, you've yet to counter a point I've made.
I've countered all of them. Some of the counters occured before even made those points.
You've yet to successfully counter anything I've made, though.
Originally posted by Robtard
I would think when building a protective bio-suit, that protects the wearer from say a crash-landing, it would be resistant to at least one punch. Call me crazy and illogical.
The alien had a "nice and soft" glided crash landing.
And, your point is very close to being a strawman. You need to account for where that kinetic energy goes when Will smith hits him. Get this: sometimes, amatueur boxers get knocked out, even with head-gear.
Also, the aliens appear to be smaller and more regile: hence the bio-mechancial suits.
Not crazy, yes, illogical: else we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Originally posted by Robtard
Then why defend it outside the realm of fiction as you are?
'Cause it so happens that some of the criticisms people have for it are based on reality, ignorant, and/or illogical. Also, it passes the time on a slow afternoon.
Originally posted by Robtard
Umm, you're the only one defending the validity of this movie in terms of the real-world, so you'd be the Devil's Advocate, son.
Not from my perspective, dad. Also, you don't know what "playing devil's advocate" means because you're a stupid-head. PWNED!
Originally posted by dadudemon
I've countered all of them. Some of the counters occured before even made those points.You've yet to successfully counter anything I've made, though.
The alien had a "nice and soft" glided crash landing.
And, your point is very close to being a strawman. You need to account for where that kinetic energy goes when Will smith hits him. Get this: sometimes, amatueur boxers get knocked out, even with head-gear.
Also, the aliens appear to be smaller and more regile: hence the bio-mechancial suits.
Not crazy, yes, illogical: else we wouldn't be having this conversation.
'Cause it so happens that some of the criticisms people have for it are based on reality, ignorant, and/or illogical. Also, it passes the time on a slow afternoon.
Not from my perspective, dad. Also, you don't know what "playing devil's advocate" means because you're a stupid-head. PWNED!
No dude, you've YET to counter that the humans only had access (if any) to the alien systems and programs of the ship for a maximum of two days. As Data clearly said, the ship only became operable when the mother-ship came close to Earth. This being one of many points.
Head-gear isn't a large Bio-suit. You've brought up a great point though, the aliens did seem rather frail, probably why they wore the suits, ergo, the suits would be made to protect them, yes, even from a Will Smith-punch. Wait, let me guess, the aliens have no concept of a punch?
Most of the criticism is valid, when looking at it from a realistic pov. But in the end, this is a cheesey action flick, shouldn't be taken for more than that.
I accept your concession on the Devil's Advocate issue.
Also, how did we get from Earthquake Conspiracy to debating the nonsense that was ID?
Originally posted by dadudemon
The alien had a "nice and soft" glided crash landing.
this is the only thing that i dont really agree with... the ship went from going several hundred miles an hour to 0 in about 12 seconds, and in terms of flying there is no such thing as a nice and soft landing when hitting the ground. the amount of force that pulled on the body would have been extraordinary. Data said that theyre not much less fragile then us so realistically it would have been torn to shreds if not for the suit.
so unless the ship had really good airbags, which it might have had 😛 will smith > the kinetic energy of going from 100+ MPH to 0 near instantly.
Originally posted by inimalist
the problem is, their technology is basically an advanced version of our own.
It is not. It is more advanced in some areas, and lower in others.
For example: the lack of a massive and diversified communications network.
1. The lack of wireless technologies, in general.
2. The lack of any obvious technological development over 50+ years.
3. The lack, or rather, the absence of cyber security technologies.
4. The lack of remote military technologies (unmanned, remote controlled.)
5. The lack of strategic adaptation. (more genetic on their part...most likely. Could be sociological, though.)
Etc.
However, they are superior in multiple ways:
1. The development of biomechancial suits that helps with protecting their smallish-fragile bodies, and probably enhances strenght.
2. Shielding technology, which is basically, their single most advantages technology.
3. An "anti-gravity" technology that allows their craft to fly without newtonian propulsion systems.
4. Energy weapons that do not appear to be radio-active.
5. Telepathy...though that may be genetic rather than technological...which would be cheating.
Basically, for your compatability argument to be true, they would have a similar enough technology to understand at least the basics of disabling it. If they had such different technology that the concept of EMP or similar devices (as EMP isn't the only way to disable electronics) there is no way a laptop computer would be able to interface with it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
this is the only thing that i dont really agree with...
That's why it was in quotes. It wasn't "nice and soft" but it was certainly way less bumpy that most crahs landings like that.
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
the ship went from going several hundred miles an hour to 0 in about 12 seconds, and in terms of flying there is no such thing as a nice and soft landing when hitting the ground. the amount of force that pulled on the body would have been extraordinary. Data said that theyre not much less fragile then us so realistically it would have been torn to shreds if not for the suit.so unless the ship had really good airbags, which it might have had 😛 will smith > the kinetic energy of going from 100+ MPH to 0 near instantly.
They were dogfighting in a canyon. It's not as though they were going supersonic speeds.
Let's use some numbers, since you want to bring it up:
Pretend they were traveling at 300 MPH.
To slow from 300 MPH to 0 in 12 seconds:
Simple formula for that:
change in speed/change in time
300 MPH/12 seconds
convert to feet per second.
(300miles per hour * 5820 feet)/60 minutes/60 seconds = 440 fs
440 fs/12 seconds
About 36.67 fs/s
What is 1 G?
32.17 fs/s
That's pretty close to 1g.
See, not so much.
Being punched in the head, however, would produce many more G's for the little alien's head that something just a little over 1G.
That was my logic in calling it "nice and soft". However, it was in quotes because there are bumps, as it's sliding to a stop and those bumps would actually provide more G's than the slowing.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Of all the things in my post, that's the only thing you got out of it.And, yes, that's exactly correct. It's their fictional universe, their fictional alien species: a one-of-a-kind computer genius was able to use decdades of research to devise a virus that took down only 1 system out of hundreds to thousands of systems from that alien species.
Definitely faulty logic. Wait, it's not. It's fiction, and that's what happened in that fictional universe.
Reality: it's far more likely that dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of people would have figured out that same thing as Goldblum's character.
Actually it's far more likely that what Goldblum did just wouldn't be possible. That's what I was referring to, you are right that since it is possible in the movie it is not weird that Goldblum was able to do it, the opportunity would probably just not be there if that happened in real life (say if our civilization advanced as far as theirs did)
Originally posted by Robtard
No dude, you've YET to counter that the humans only had access (if any) to the alien systems and programs of the ship for a maximum of two days.
I've already countered this. Even before you brought it up, I countered it. You're just not paying attention.
Go back and read all my posts and tell me when you find it.
I'll give you a hint: it was in my last post.
Originally posted by Robtard
As Data clearly said, the ship only became operable when the mother-ship came close to Earth. This being one of many points.
No, that being only one point.
And, did Spiner's character say that they made lots of new discoveries...or did he say that lots of the stuff hard turned on? 😏
And, see my previous point for why this point of yours still continues to fail.
Originally posted by Robtard
Head-gear isn't a large Bio-suit. You've brought up a great point though, the aliens did seem rather frail, probably why they wore the suits, ergo, the suits would be made to protect them, yes, even from a Will Smith-punch. Wait, let me guess, the aliens have no concept of a punch?
lulz
You took the bait.
A hard-shell bio-mechanical suit does not protect the brain as well, from impacts, as the helmet that the amateur fighters use in their bouts.
While the shell may protect their most vital parts from bullets, a larger kinetic force obviously does not: ergo, getting knocked out from an angry, but quite fit, fighter pilot.
Originally posted by Robtard
Most of the criticism is valid, when looking at it from a realistic pov. But in the end, this is a cheesey action flick, shouldn't be taken for more than that.
Most of the criticisms I have been addressing are largely not, though. That also includes the points you've been bringing up.
Originally posted by Robtard
I accept your concession on the Devil's Advocate issue.
I didn't concede, though. I pointed out how silly your idea of not playing devil's advocate was. It could be argued that both of us are playing devil's advocate, and neither of us are. Since you knew what I meant and know what I'm intending, it's just you being an ass because I pwned the sh*t out of your arguments. 🙂
Originally posted by Robtard
Also, how did we get from Earthquake Conspiracy to debating the nonsense that was ID?
Well, had you read the thread, you would have seen when it happened.
Ooooooooooh! Sick burn. 😂
Originally posted by Bardock42
Actually it's far more likely that what Goldblum did just wouldn't be possible. That's what I was referring to, you are right that since it is possible in the movie it is not weird that Goldblum was able to do it, the opportunity would probably just not be there if that happened in real life (say if our civilization advanced as far as theirs did)
Since we don't have specific details (source code from the aliens), we cannot say it would be impossible or possible. We can only speak in relative comparisons to the real world and what happened in the film.
Doing so would cause us to come to the conclusion that Goldblum's character would be far from the only person to figure out any of their code.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Since we don't have specific details (source code from the aliens), we cannot say it would be impossible or possible. We can only speak in relative comparisons to the real world and what happened in the film.Doing so would cause us to come to the conclusion that Goldblum's character would be far from the only person to figure out any of their code.
My point is that it is unlikely that a civilization would have advanced so much in some areas and have absolutely no understanding about others. It just seems unlikely. Like I said, since that is how it was in the movie your point is right, too, a lot of smart people could have figured it out since it wasn't an incredible feat to begin with, since the Aliens were obviously retarded in that area.
Like you could perhaps argue that they only attacked cavemen before, and that they are some sort of peaceful hive mind amongst themselves, maybe then, I don't know, just seems farfetched.
Originally posted by Bardock42
My point is that it is unlikely that a civilization would have advanced so much in some areas and have absolutely no understanding about others. It just seems unlikely.
However, that would most likely be the truth. They WOULD develop greatly in some areas and be underdeveloped in others..relative to humans.
Unless, of course, they developed into "god-like" states where they experienced a singularity. That's getting into areas that are far more complicated than we have a current understanding.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Like I said, since that is how it was in the movie your point is right, too, a lot of smart people could have figured it out since it wasn't an incredible feat to begin with, since the Aliens were obviously retarded in that area.Like you could perhaps argue that they only attacked cavemen before, and that they are some sort of peaceful hive mind amongst themselves, maybe then, I don't know, just seems farfetched.
It's far more likely that a class 1 or 2 civilization would still have gaps, relative to human technology, than it would be for them to excel in all facets of what we define as technology. That's due to some of the items I outlined, earlier.
It is far more unlikely that a species would develop in the same areas, with the same technologies, than it would be for them to develop in areas completely independently of human's progress. If you were to find a species out there, in the universe, the developed technologies in the same fashion and in the same ways we did (even if they were just at different points in their technological advancement), that'd be well beyond an astronomical probability.
We do know there was some sort of hive-mind among them, though, as not one was shown to be dissenters. They also seemed strategically inferior to humans. It's possible that they are a much older species. What took them millennia to develop, in technology, would take us a decade or so.
Originally posted by dadudemonI guess that's actually somewhat of a philosophical question. Whether a technological advancement has to follow a more or less similar path or if there is totally different ways.
However, that would most likely be the truth. They WOULD develop greatly in some areas and be underdeveloped in others..relative to humans.Unless, of course, they developed into "god-like" states where they experienced a singularity. That's getting into areas that are far more complicated than we have a current understanding.
It's far more likely that a class 1 or 2 civilization would still have gaps, relative to human technology, than it would be for them to excel in all facets of what we define as technology. That's due to some of the items I outlined, earlier.
It is far more unlikely that a species would develop in the same areas, with the same technologies, than it would be for them to develop in areas completely independently of human's progress. If you were to find a species out there, in the universe, the developed technologies in the same fashion and in the same ways we did (even if they were just at different points in their technological advancement), that'd be well beyond an astronomical probability.
We do know there was some sort of hive-mind among them, though, as not one was shown to be dissenters. They also seemed strategically inferior to humans. It's possible that they are a much older species. What took them millennia to develop, in technology, would take us a decade or so.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I guess that's actually somewhat of a philosophical question. Whether a technological advancement has to follow a more or less similar path or if there is totally different ways.
We certainly know for a fact that even among humans, technology advancement/discovery is greatly uneven...and we are working with a set of genetics that are extremely close.
It's not completely a philosphical discussion, it's more of a discussion of "human anecdotes" and probabilities with a dash of philosphy.
Originally posted by dadudemon
We certainly know for a fact that even among humans, technology advancement/discovery is greatly uneven...and we are working with a set of genetics that are extremely close.It's not completely a philosphical discussion, it's more of a discussion of "human anecdotes" and probabilities with a dash of philosphy.
What examples are you thinking of?