Batdude's Match #6: JaketheBank/Smurph vs. Id/King Kandy

Ok, I take upon myself the opportunity to give the first vote after arriving too late my last time as a judge 😮

Let me start by saying that I'm not a big fan of power meshing. Sure, you are going to get some extra power, but it is night impossible to find a sure way to double your energies in five minutes and the result will almost always end up with a character unable to use their secondary power-set in any significant way to change the course of the battle despite the almost universal "experience share" using telepaths. That said, I was not harsh in judging none of the strategies, and judged their likeness according to what the teams were able to add and critic about their opponent's prep.

First of all, Jake and Smurph pointed out correctly (at least in my opinion) that their opponents should draw energies directly from Photon and if he falls their ability to recover energy would be shut. It may have been interesting if they pushed in that direction. ID and KK questioned the fact that accelerating Cassandra's metabolism for copying Zatanna had no backing or whatsoever and the difference from 10 hours to 5 minutes is quite a boost. Not only you have to suppose Zatanna can pull that unknown spell but also you suppose it wouldn't take most of those 5 minutes and would be very instantaneous, and then Cass still needs to do experience share. I decided all those things wouldn't be likely. Jake and Smurph never depended in Cassandra using heavy weight magic, and such, this part of the prep not working wouldn't be as bad as it could. However, maybe ID and KK did them a favor by making such gene copy impossible since as they said, Mummdrai improve their own psychic abilities by using powerful hosts so in copying Zatanna, Cassandra would lose her own Xavier DNA to have hers and actually weaken her own telepathy -she would still have her Mummdrai powers, but they wouldn't be empowered by her body.

All in all, I think both teams addressed each other points dynamically while dynamically proposing their own arguments. Still there was some sloppy debating at times (saying you can close a blackhole its a stretch even if such tactic is later banned), insisting in criticizing or sticking to strategies that have been deemed legal or banned (WW's equipment, the first blast), and trying to question the opponent's legality of power-meshing over and over and at the same time saying they would be too weak to fight Diana (well played K) while using the same tactics you are criticizing is generally a mistake. I think that both teams had about the same amount of errors so its not a very big factor.

The last time I was a judge I warned people that they should try to stick to abilities that the character have used before, I specifically talked about telepathy and elegant abilities that powerhouses have never shown to be able to do. This doesn't mean I think its not possible to do experience share, shielding or hiding if you have no scans but it will always be better if you have them. KK and ID took my critic to heart and started to demand feats for pretty much every ability that Smurph and Jake intended too use. They spent just a little too much time doing it for my taste (its not unlike passing too much time arguing how powerful your character is), but they kind of hit a nerve when they started to demand proof for Zatanna and Smurph just answer she doesn't work in a logical way.

Zatanna is the kind of character that you need to play safe. Just go into a match and claim she says peels and you will get yourself in a lot of problems. If I were to give advice to anyone running Zatanna I would say that most of the spells they use should be backed by scans, and by most I mean around 75% of what they do -this time most of the things are shown, I just wanted to make the clarification. Just during prep the team plans to have Zatanna cast 7 spells (in five minutes, more than one spell per minute), they said: speed Cassandra up, demagnetize items, hide, become intangible, reverse damage, casting homing device and shield the team. Later they even suggest that Zatanna can make the mind transfer herself, but luckily rules wouldn't allow to rewrite prep. And with all that they want her to be one-shotting the opposition once the battle starts. Now... I think that ID hit the nail when he said "Zatanna is pulling out the resources of casting one big spell, after another? You are aware she holds human limitations, and can in no way deal with a team.. who’s actions are measured by nano seconds." Not that I think she's using a bunch of big or taxing spells one after another, but proving her stamina would've been wise after putting her through five minutes of spell casting hell doing at least two spells she's never done before, and casting spell she's done on herself on several people. In my opinion you should've played her way safer than you did.

I think that ID and KK more or less proved that Onslaught can at the very least hang against Cassandra, even if they put way too much energy into the reflecting properties of said shields, its evident that Cassandra would not knock herself out with her own blast. Should I think that because it was an omnidirectional blast Cassandra would be unable to plow through the shield and the energy would just bounce off? I thought about it, but deemed it unimportant. ID also found how to put down Cassandra, but I never though putting her down was quite the issue in the battle. More time was spent discussing hiding and finding, and I think both the lasso and cosmic awareness are fine -I would've loved a scan of the homing device spell-. The reverse damage spell was addressed using a tactic that Smurph and Jake deemed as matter manipulation and consisted in taking someone in a ride with the Surfer's board.

In the battle itself, Zatanna would be too tired and Cass wouldn't have magic to back up her abilities (either that or she would posses weakened telepathy which in my opinion makes her worse). Onslaught would have a non-significant part of the power cosmic and Surfer would be running on Photon batteries.

Debating

Jake/Smurph: 4/10
Id/KK: 5/10

Debating was about even. They managed to hit their opponent's plan in critical ways and there were missed opportunities from both sides. At times they were just nit-picking too much. Giving just a slight edge to Id and KK because they changed their arguments a little more and were slightly more persuasive.

Originality

Jake/Smurph: 3/5
Id/KK: 1/5

From the character selection to the copying ADN antics, Jake and Smurph were more original. ID and KK were more on the cosmic power meshing, setting a bomb blah blah blah that you see every day.

Effectiveness

Jake/Smurph: 1/5
Id/KK: 3/5

And for me it all comes down to this: You didn't manage to make me believe your plan could work and relied too much in how much I believe in magic. I wanted to have your team working because Diana equipped and Nova are pure genius, but Zatanna is more a damage reversing spell than a character in this match.

My vote is for Id and KK, very good match you all, was a very fun read.

I would just like to add (to my already lengthy explanation), that my observation about Cassandra copying Zatanna's ADN and potentially weakening her psych was just that: An observation.

This wasn't pointed by ID and Kandy and as such, I didn't count it against Jake and Smurph. I'm sure the other judges would think the same but I thought it best to clarify. Thanks!

Thanks. iirc, we did point that out once, but i'm not going to look through all the posts to check.

I've read the back and forth a few times and now my head is spinning...and not from beers either.

Basically Team ID/KK had their offensive strategy ruled illegal in the prep part of their plan. So that left them with power sharing, memory/experience transfer, cloaks, shields, etc Team Smurph/JTB have their opening strategy with meshing, sharing, amping, shields, cloaks, phasing, etc. plus their offensive attack

Seems like a stalemate to be except the team Smurph/JTB have opened with an offensive assault while Team ID/KK had their offense declared illegal. I think both teams left certain feats and scans open for interpretation. I think both sides covered themselves reasonably enough. So I believed what both teams had to say.

Both teams claimed that their team had the more powerful whatever and defended that opinion tooth and nail. But there was still that ruling which put team ID/KK on their heels from the get go.

Originality
ID/KK - 3/5
Smurph/JTB - 2/5

Neither team did anything that hasn't been seen. Team ID/KK had the more elaborate plan.

Effectiveness
ID/KK - 1/5
Smurph/JTB - 3/5

The ruling against the black hole bomb reflects my rating.

Debating Skill

ID/KK - 8/10
Smurph/JTB - 8/10

Good job everyone. Could have done w/o some of the smack talk but, all in all, a well fought match. Explanations were well thought, scans were backing claims (for the most part), points and counterpoints were well made and defended.

I am picking team Smurph/JTB as the winner by a technical KO.

Delph's vote:

Interesting chain of events occurred in this thread from a legality standpoint. Some obvious, some in the details. Took a few times to read this through but I've come to a decision. Here are a couple of the key points that helped me come to my decision:

-I believe Zatanna was a bit overused to the detriment of Smurph and Jake's overall plan. The issue I find is not with whether or not I believe Zatanna is capable of the tasks they stated for her because she likely is, the issue is that there wasn't any direct proof of her being able to do it, just a general "well, she's capable of this non-related feat, and she's magic, so she can do that as well". This works two ways. If she is capable of doing practically anything she wants because she's magic, she should likely be illegal. All she'd have to say is "nrut ffo rieht srewop" and "pots rieht straeh" and it's game/set/match. But of course, Bats and Khan allowerd her, so that couldn't be the case. The alternative, if we're going to hold Onslaught or Beta Ray Bill to the breadth of their personal feats regardless of their powers/progenitors, I see no reason I'd just accept Zatanna's simply being able to do, well, pretty much anything she wants, based on the precedent established thus far in this tourney. There is still a burden of proof required even if I know a character should be capable of something. Same way Onslaught can't do everything Magneto or Charles can do with the same powers but without related proof, I can't simply believe Zatanna can do anything she wants without some related proof, even though I may believe (well, do believe) her capable of doing it. I really don't see how Zatanna was allowed in this tournament (or magic outright).

-With that established, a lot of Smurph and Jake's plans stray into a gray area. Particularly the speeding up of Cassandra Nova's copying of Zatanna's DNA/Powers (which, unless I'm mistaken, may actually be illegal via the "No power copying" rule since the powers aren't granted to Cassandra but are actually copied), the homing spell for Wonder Woman's tiara, and probably most painful, the EM shielding. Not because Zatanna is encapable, just because she wasn't shown capable. I either believe this match was over before it started because Zatanna can do anything she wants, or I look to burden of proof. I chose the latter in the interest of fairness.

-I wasn't convinced that Cassandra Nova was more powerful than Onslaught and would handle him with ease in any manner, though the effort was very impressive. Being able to mind rape the Imperial Guard and psyche out Gladiator into a whimpering pile of piss is very impressive, but Onslaught completely and utterly wrecked Juggernaut through his much vaunted magically bestowed invulnerability and imprisoned him in the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak through brute force and power, and he's not even a magical being (as stated by Dr. Strange in the scan id provided). I found the line of reasoning left me with too many doubts or Cassandra's superiority or raw power, but it was admirable for it's tenacity. I also found it hard to see a member of your team, even a fully equipped Wonder Woman, having no trouble dealing with Onslaught, who has on panel in the scans provided simply overpowered magical protection and psionic defenses through brute force, and that's primarily what you guys (Smurph/Jake) are relying in for defense due to not having any energy manipulators on your team. You didn't cover all of your bases.

-There's a rule against physical invulnerability:

- No immortality or physically indestrucible characters and no charcters able to continiously transfer their consciousness to an endless number of bodies - one death = out of the fight.

which I believe the "reverse all damage back to our opponents" spell would technically break, which I found especially odd in a match where so much rule breaking was being called out.

There was a lot more I took into consideration beyond just this, but I don't want to be too long winded.

The long/short, however, is that I have to give the battle to Team id/Kandy. I felt they brought too much power to the table for Smurph/Jake's team given so much of the plan hinged on Zatanna's deus ex machina, the assertion that Cassandra, or the whole team for that matter, was more powerful than Onslaught and would make short work of him and the others, and that Silver Surfer was a non-factor somehow that would be taken out at the beginning of the battle like cannon fodder. It almost seemed like my rational mind was being bullied in this thread. It was interesting to say the least.

Anyway, the point allotments:

Originality:
Smurph/Jake 2/5
id/Kandy 1/5

Nothing in this tourney thus far has wow'd me.

Effectiveness:

Smurph/Jake 3/5
id/Kandy 4/5

Things almost got ugly, and there were some below the belt tactics in my opinion, but both teams held their own. Id and Kandy, however, didn't over-extend as far as the Smurph/Jake did.

Debating Skill: 0-10

Smurph/Jake 3/5
id/Kandy 4/5

Save a couple oversights, this was a hard fought and pretty even debate, but I was frankly never convinced, all things considered, that Smurph and Jake had an advantage despite trying their absolute best to convince me that they had Id and Kandy completely and utterly outgunned.

Good match.

-Delph Digler

I'm not out to sway Delph's vote (I know how much thought he puts into his votes and how convinced he is when he casts it), but I'd like to bring this up as a point of clarification, if only for the remaining judges:

Originally posted by illadelph12
This works two ways. If she is capable of doing practically anything she wants because she's magic, she should likely be illegal. All she'd have to say is "nrut ffo rieht srewop" and "pots rieht straeh" and it's game/set/match. But of course, Bats and Khan allowerd her, so that couldn't be the case.

The line of reasoning here is (if I read that properly) that Zatanna can't be considered to be able to cast what we've claimed since she can't cast the above spells (since otherwise she'd be too powerful and therefore illegal).

What Batdude told me was that Zatanna, despite being able to cast game-ending spells, simply wasn't allowed to. There were no OHKO attacks allowed, but there were characters allowed capable of those attacks, if they were still overall within the power limits.

At least, that's how I interpreted his response. I can check again with him, but Batdude ruled Zatanna legal knowing what she's capable of.

It would seem then that this line of reasoning (Zatanna can't be considered to be capable of casting "loophole" spells, therefore she can't be considered to cast what we've claimed) is based on the false premise that she isn't being considered capable of those game-ending spells- she is, it's just illegal. Much like (according to some judges) Talisman and the "shush" spell.

Anyways, I'm not trying to bring up a dispute, just clarifying, as I said.

...

I, early in the tourney, proposed that there should be a no OHKO policy to avoid needing to ban teleportation, and Kahn/Batdude said that they would not make any such rule but rather deal case by case. I find this hard to believe and such a rule is nowhere stated. But really, I don't want to argue with you after it's over, and I wouldn't mind both of these posts being edited away.

Well, I'm telling you what Batdude told me. Like I said, I'll check with him again, but I know he was disallowing Zee's spells, as you put it, on a case by case basis. I asked him while writing the strat about questionable spells, and he banned what he thought illegal. He wouldn't let me, for instance, say "pots!" or anything along those lines.

I'd object to anything being edited away. I'm not bringing up new arguments, just clarifying what the tourney host said in regards to the legality of a certain character. We can let Batdude decide afterwards.

Yeah, he should clarify. It's quite suspect to me, that somehow this important ruling was never made public, despite the issue of her capabilities on that exact note being brought up numerous times during drafting while batdude didn't even hint that was a condition for her being allowed.

It's not a specific condition. It applies to all characters.

She's not allowed to cause blood to stream from your pores because that's offensive matter manip. She's not allowed to stop you in your tracks because that's timestopping, effectively. Batdude acknowledged that she's capable of these things, but simply not allowed as that constitutes a rule break.

Same as you guys are capable of catching us in those spatial-warp-whatevers that leave us motionless, but aren't allowed to. Or Talisman's "hush" spell possibly being ruled out.

Batdude can clarify whether I'm off base on this, but I know he was tossing spells out that I named when he felt they were rule violations. The spells that Delph named would fall under such a category, and it seemed to be an incorrect assumption that she couldn't be capable of such things or else she wouldn't be allowed in the tourney. She is in fact capable, as acknowledged by the tourney host.

Either way, I'm done mucking up this thread. I'll wait for Batdude to step in.

I guess I am the only one that interpreted Delph’s comment differently?

Look Delph is not addressing OHK per say, but criticizing the misuse of Zee in terms of claming non existing spells/feats. If she is not held by any boundaries, or logic merely because its magic, and can do what ever she wants by merely speaking backwards. Then yes she would be illegal.

He is not pointing out that you guys did anything illegal, or that Zee is an illegal draft per say. Just the line of logic, in how Zee was handled to cast those spells.

This was all I wanted to get across:

"joel says: (5:52:21 PM)
if they don't want to believe that Zatanna can make something immune to EM, fine, but it's false to believe that she would be kicked out of the tourney if she could make peoples hearts stop, since we all know she can, we're just not allowing that type of spell- right?_

Steve says: (5:52:37 PM)
Correct."

Steve = Batdude.

I'm not saying Delph has to believe that she's capable of what we said, only clarifying that Zatanna's presence in the tourney doesn't imply that she has the limits that Delph proposed, and therefore doesn't imply a limit on her power.

Anyways, I'll await the next judges votes.

^ Agreed.

By that line of logic, most of the characters used thus far, wouldn't/shouldn't be allowed based off what they can do that would specificially break the rules of this tourny.. I even specificially stated in one of my posts, that yes, Zatanna has access to plenty of spells which would translate into illegal tactics/manuevers for this tourny and yet we didn't rely on any spell which would be deemed illegal such as "pots!" or "llik eht ymene".

That being said, thanks to the judges for voting and explaining their stance.

facepalm

Originally posted by "Id"
facepalm

And?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
^ Agreed.

By that line of logic, most of the characters used thus far, wouldn't/shouldn't be allowed based off what they can do that would specificially break the rules of this tourny.. I even specificially stated in one of my posts, that yes, Zatanna has access to plenty of spells which would translate into illegal tactics/manuevers for this tourny and yet we didn't rely on any spell which would be deemed illegal such as "pots!" or "llik eht ymene".

That being said, thanks to the judges for voting and explaining their stance.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But, where in the rules is it ever stated that something like "eid" is banned?

I think it's common sense that a spell that causes instant death upon speaking it would be an illegal tactic. 😐

Sorry for this very late post I was extremely busy.

So here it is.

Criticism for Smurph/Jake:
Looking at the argument from both sides Smurph/Jake initial plan of speeding up Cassie didn’t look feasible not enough evidence was shown that she is capable of doing exactly that feat. Feats that were presented were not enough to say that she can achieve that specific feat<When it comes to magic it’s important to post that she can achieve specific feat: or you are pretty much say she can do “anything”>. I was impressed by Nova’s feat on Xavier but the calculation of how powerful Wonder Woman and Cassie became are mostly hyperbole at best no feat exist that will say otherwise at least nothing was shown that their power increased by the amount Smurf was claiming. Anyway I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt that Zantana will be able to do that feat. Also their plan of hiding from the other team didn’t seem feasible since you have a powerful telepath Surfer and Genis who have cosmic awareness that is off the charts any move will be recognize very quickly. Id showed scans of Genis awareness which is at a universal level. Also his battle with Baron Zemo showed that he a telepath that can see pretty much anything. When a large portion of your plan relies on hiding from a strong telepath, and Surfer who has detected phased beings before and has detected minute energy signal across galaxies will not be able detect them? I didn’t but it especially when all three of Team Id/KK are potent in that regard when it comes to finding invisible/hidden characters.

Criticism for Team Id/KK:
Team Id/KK merging didn’t seem so feasible at least to the extent they were claiming also especially with the time constrain this team faced they do all this just like that?. Also I wasn’t buying that they can all share power without weakening themselves the unlimited source of energy is nice and all but we have never seen this type of merger before. I don’t buy that Genis can just recharge Surfer and Vice versa. There black hole and trapping tactic lost them some points. I thought it was clear that these will not be allowed in this tourney. Also their argument that Onsaulght > Cassie was not backed by feats Cassie was clearly the strongest telepath on either team.

Overall:
It seem team Smurph/Jake had strongest characters in each department; ie Magic , telepathy and Skill/power etc but their downfall lied in the fact that they had to hide from team Id/KK and Team Id/KK showed example that their team can be found. It just seemed that Id/KK had multiple ways of attacking and had better defense because all their character could create shields, absorb energy, redirect energy etc. While team Smurph/Jake had strong magic and telepathy on their side I don’t think Cassie could mind daze all off them when you have a telepath to at least counter some of it’s effect and you have two strong telepaths and have shown telepathic resistance in the past sure it might not be at the level Cassie can operate but all of them with some shared ability can at least endure this to go on the offensive.

Originality
ID/KK - 3/5
Smurph/JTB - 4/5
Smurph/JTB had more original and unique idea I wasn’t expected that type of plan from them.

Effectiveness
ID/KK - 4/5
Smurph/JTB - 2/5
Imo too much of Smurph/JTB plan relied on Cassie telepathy stunting the other team and them being undetectable. Also their original plan relied on Zatana being able do all those things without anything that actually related to the feat at hand Also Zanata had to do too much given the time period. Sure ID/KK had similar problem of power messing and trying to get unlimited power up with no ill effect. It just that Smurph/JTB attack etc relied on this were ID/KK teams power were pretty similar so the messing really just gave them a power boost but most of the ability are really similar so it’s didn’t matter.

Debating Skill
ID/KK - 8/10
Smurph/JTB - 8/10
Debating was good from both side but a little less insult would have been nice.

Anyway close battle
But there can only be one winner and Team: ID/KK takes it.

Originally posted by "Id"
Hey Smurph I decided this will be the most appropriate song to play, when I bury your team. peaches
YouTube video

You two (Smurph/Jake) are misinterpreting my ruling. I'm not saying Zatanna shouldn't be allowed because she could possibly do anything and I'm voting against her because of implied "limitations", what I'm saying is that since she's been allowed I'm holding her to the same burden of proof requirements as other characters have been held to rather than just the "she's magic, so anything is possible".