Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Firelord not crushing Spidey isn't why it's PIS. Spidey winning by punching Firelord is why it's PIS.Street - Herald. God - Skyfather god. There is a significant disconnect here.
i see no difference between spidey punching out an unprepared herald and loki TRANSMUTING an unprepared skyfather . . .
Bor-into-snow is not PIS. Your skepticism over it seems more like IDLI, IDH, rather than PIS. And the explanation wasn't retroactive. The explanation accompanied the reveal that it was Loki himself that did the deed.
i didn't say the explanation was retroactive--i said the necessary rationalizations that accompany acknowledgement of said feat as NON-PIS would come retroactively.
said feat Superman doesn't resist magic like everybody else, e.g., Thor.
perhaps not like thor, who has shown special resistance to magic specifically, but it's equal to anyone WITHOUT special resistance was my point.
In any case, we apparently agree that Loki's magic is more than adequate to take Superman out.
yes, it could be, depending on what he used. i still struggle trying to come up with spells he could use to take out kal though in this type of combat scenario.
It happens in the next issue, Thor #398:
👆
I honestly don't mean this as an insulting jab, but frankly, I think it's idiotic to assume Superman instantly and constantly stays at a state of superspeed in every single fight.
that's the point--he won't BE in that state for long. only as long as it takes to blitz and throw superspeed punches. if he doesn't blitz, he wouldn't necessarily need to be moving at speed other than to dodge and throw punches as he could easily react to loki in any physical way. though without blitz you seem to say loki would simply be intangible the whole time which would seem to lead to a stalemate unless loki has some AoE spells to throw at him. no intangibility and no blitz, i'd still give it to clark because that would likely lead to a physical confrontation that loki would lose. i wasn't being facetious when i said WAY back that there is much impressive in terms of combat spells loki has exhibited. this type of battle is NOT his forte and in his direct physical battles with thor he rarely uses spells to assist him. even against surtur he used almost no 'spells' but rather blasted and used illusions which actually tired him out pretty quickly to the point where he was going to withdraw to regain strength.
Him turning intangible/undetectable doesn't appear to require anything more than a thought and it doesn't appear to take any amount of time that wouldn't be anything more than negligible.[/b]Loki's got on-panel reaction speed feats quantified at speed of thought. Frankly, I don't equate can do it = will do it.[/quote]
except you're saying he will go intangible to counter every blitz.
And vibrating intangible =/= dimensional or molecular phasing. The latter two, which Loki has exhibited.
you may be right.
I'm listing options for you. How about an AoE spell that halves Superman's power? [/B]
sure, could work if he doesn't need a target. has he used that and i'm forgetting, or are you just throwing possibilities out there?
Originally posted by leonidasI see a huge difference. Street-level crimefighter punching out a Herald of Galactus? God ambushing and transmuting a Skyfather god who didn't raise his godly defenses? We'll agree to disagree on this.
i see no difference between spidey punching out an unprepared herald and loki TRANSMUTING an unprepared skyfather . . .i didn't say the explanation was retroactive--i said the necessary rationalizations that accompany acknowledgement of said feat as NON-PIS would come retroactively.
perhaps not like thor, who has shown special resistance to magic specifically, but it's equal to anyone WITHOUT special resistance was my point.
I don't understand the distinction. You're labeling it as PIS somehow converts the on-panel feat into PIS and if somebody explains to you why it isn't, then the explanation is retroactive?
Still a weakness of Superman's.
Originally posted by leonidasTo be clear, you struggle because you're skeptical that any magic could be directly applied on him because of his superspeed. Otherwise, a magical bolt and head-zap like he did to BRB would be enough to knock out Superman.
yes, it could be, depending on what he used. i still struggle trying to come up with spells he could use to take out kal though in this type of combat scenario.that's the point--he won't BE in that state for long. only as long as it takes to blitz and throw superspeed punches. if he doesn't blitz, he wouldn't necessarily need to be moving at speed other than to dodge and throw punches as he could easily react to loki in any physical way. though without blitz you seem to say loki would simply be intangible the whole time which would seem to lead to a stalemate unless loki has some AoE spells to throw at him. no intangibility and no blitz, i'd still give it to clark because that would likely lead to a physical confrontation that loki would lose. i wasn't being facetious when i said WAY back that there is much impressive in terms of combat spells loki has exhibited. this type of battle is NOT his forte and in his direct physical battles with thor he rarely uses spells to assist him. even against surtur he used almost no 'spells' but rather blasted and used illusions which actually tired him out pretty quickly to the point where he was going to withdraw to regain strength.
Well, unless he's at superspeed instantly and constantly, Loki can simply blast him. He has ot stay in superspeed constantly for you to believe Loki has little, to no chance, of simply zapping him. Loki has used spells in his fights with Thor, but Thor's resistance and use of Mjolnir sorta blunts whatever fancy stuff Loki would do. And Surtur's pure power completely cut off what Loki was able to do (which was only to distract him for a lil longer, which he did much longer than Thor managed).
Originally posted by leonidasOnly because you say Superman instantly and constantly is superspeeding in this fight. We don't agree on whether you need to bolster that opinion. If that's the case, for the sake of argumentation, I will adopt that and not provide any rationale for Loki instantly and constantly staying intangible. And yes, Loki has used that spell.
except you're saying he will go intangible to counter every blitz.you may be right.
sure, could work if he doesn't need a target. has he used that and i'm forgetting, or are you just throwing possibilities out there?
Originally posted by carver9
I dont think Loki could stand up to Superman punches.
He's taken blows from Thor and the Destroyer Armor and hasn't keeled over like a wuss before. Not to mention it all depends on whether or not Superman will be able to even hit him if Loki goes intangible, teleports, etc.
Let's face it. The only reason why Thor does exceptionally well against Loki is because of his own godly powers and the fact his weapon allows him to absorb or otherwise son Loki's spells/blasts. There have been plenty of times where plot device or even PIS came in heavily for Thor to best Loki. Hell, an early in his career Thor even admitted that Loki's power exceeded his own, and later in his career, goes as far as to admit that Loki's sorcery is almost a match for his own power. Does this mean that Loki > Thor? No, but it does mean that if Loki can give someone like Thor, who's catered for battling magical threats and other gods trouble, then someone who is consistently shown to be disadvantaged by magic or even said to be weak to it is going to be hard pressed to beat him.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Let's face it. The only reason why Thor does exceptionally well against Loki is because of his own godly powers and the fact his weapon allows him to absorb or otherwise son Loki's spells/blasts. There have been plenty of times where plot device or even PIS came in heavily for Thor to best Loki. Hell, an early in his career Thor even admitted that Loki's power exceeded his own, and later in his career, goes as far as to admit that Loki's sorcery is almost a match for his own power. Does this mean that Loki > Thor? No, but it does mean that if Loki can give someone like Thor, who's catered for battling magical threats and other gods trouble, then someone who is consistently shown to be disadvantaged by magic or even said to be weak to it is going to be hard pressed to beat him.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I see a huge difference. Street-level crimefighter punching out a Herald of Galactus? God ambushing and transmuting a Skyfather god who didn't raise his godly defenses? We'll agree to disagree on this.
this is tangential to the whole thing and we'll likely never agree upon it, but you think the relative difference between spidey/FL>relative difference between loki/skyfather?
I don't understand the distinction. You're labeling it as PIS somehow converts the on-panel feat into PIS and if somebody explains to you why it isn't, then the explanation is retroactive?
i get why YOU don't see it as PIS. the feat however, is a pretty clear aberration imo. next to transmuting a skyfather, what do YOU feel is loki's single greatest feat? i can't think of anything that even comes close, tbh. but you know him better than me.
Still a weakness of Superman's. To be clear, you struggle because you're skeptical that any magic could be directly applied on him because of his superspeed. Otherwise, a magical bolt and head-zap like he did to BRB would be enough to knock out Superman.
given knowledge of loki's magic, and lack of pis in the forum, explain why WOULDN'T he remain in a state of superspeed? he's vibrated intangible for prolonged periods, flown interstellar distances for prolonged periods. he HAS the ability to remain in a superspeed state, so, why wouldn't he blitz, then remain in a superspeed state? a serious question.
what i'm skeptical of, and have seen no reason to really alter my stance in regards to, is whether loki could turn intangible before superman hits him even once at superspeed.
If that's the case, for the sake of argumentation, I will adopt that and not provide any rationale for Loki instantly and constantly staying intangible. And yes, Loki has used that spell.
but can he do it before clark is all over him has always been the question. or can he do it before he's blasted by heat vision. if he can, it's a stalemate or loki wins or the unlikely possibilty is clark can match his intangibility. i don't see loki hitting him with any blast in the forum scenario. the guy sees lightning travel in slow-mo. it took a full-power cheap shot from cap marvel to ko him. withstood etrigan's fire without being downed. no problems with adam. so i don't think even if a blast hit it would be the end of the fight by any means.
if he can go intangible before clark's blitz lands, he wins. if not, clark wins. there is loads of evidence for clark bilitzing. next to zero evidence regarding loki's reaction speed.
again, this is vastly different in a comic, where supes would need a plot device to win.
Originally posted by leonidasYes, by a wide margin.
this is tangential to the whole thing and we'll likely never agree upon it, but you think the relative difference between spidey/FL>relative difference between loki/skyfather?i get why YOU don't see it as PIS. the feat however, is a pretty clear aberration imo. next to transmuting a skyfather, what do YOU feel is loki's single greatest feat? i can't think of anything that even comes close, tbh. but you know him better than me.
I don't know what the top is, but absorbing Dormammu's powers and entrapping Death are up there among others.
Originally posted by leonidasgiven knowledge of superman's powers, and lack of pis in the forum, explain why WOULDN'T he remain in a state of intangibility? he's turned intangible instantly, turned intangible for prolonged periods. he HAS the ability to remain in an intangible state, so, why wouldn't he turn intangible, then blast him with magic at his leisure? a serious question.
given knowledge of loki's magic, and lack of pis in the forum, explain why WOULDN'T he remain in a state of superspeed? he's vibrated intangible for prolonged periods, flown interstellar distances for prolonged periods. he HAS the ability to remain in a superspeed state, so, why wouldn't he blitz, then remain in a superspeed state? a serious question.what i'm skeptical of, and have seen no reason to really alter my stance in regards to, is whether loki could turn intangible before superman hits him even once at superspeed.
Concerning your serious question, you haven't presented any proof that Superman has instantly and constantly remained in a superspeed state against his foes, much less against magical and/or godly ones. Loki's turned intangible instantly. Also, presupposing Superman's first blow = Loki's defeat is absurd.
Originally posted by leonidasLoki's phased intangible instantly. Loki's perceived radio waves and electronic signals clearly enough to redirect them. He's physically dodged Mjolnir. I don't perceive instantaneous heat vision to be an insurmountable problem, whether you can prove Superman would do so or not. Loki has used area spells and omniblasts before. He's used blink teleportation and insta-binding and telepathy before. Your recollections of how Superman has fared against those characters' magicks is jaundiced, to say the least. Also, Loki's magic is far superior to any of those characters you mentioned.
but can he do it before clark is all over him has always been the question. or can he do it before he's blasted by heat vision. if he can, it's a stalemate or loki wins or the unlikely possibilty is clark can match his intangibility. i don't see loki hitting him with any blast in the forum scenario. the guy sees lightning travel in slow-mo. it took a full-power cheap shot from cap marvel to ko him. withstood etrigan's fire without being downed. no problems with adam. so i don't think even if a blast hit it would be the end of the fight by any means.if he can go intangible before clark's blitz lands, he wins. if not, clark wins. there is loads of evidence for clark bilitzing. next to zero evidence regarding loki's reaction speed.
again, this is vastly different in a comic, where supes would need a plot device to win.
As you recognize from regressing this match-up into a shallow reduction of powersets/abilities, barring Superman running away from the field of battle, Loki's intangibility offers him unlimited opportunity to attack him and completely negates any offense Superman could mount.
PIS may be off. CIS is still on.