Hp Doomsday/Thanos vs Darkseid/Odin

Originally posted by Enyalus
He only suffered from the absorbing an excess amount of energy problem in like, 6 issues. He didn't have many feats besides the Lobo and Parasite one to compare to Current Superman. So of course current might have better feats. Nevertheless, that Superman absorbed so much radiation that his body was physically mutated. Much like, say, Superman's exposure to red k-nite in JLA v3 (Tower of Babel I think) made his body go into overdrive and became vastly more powerful than normal.

Since current Supes' body isn't distorted and hulk-like from uber radiation absorption, I think its pretty safe to conclude that in those few issues (such as for the Lobo feat) he was stronger than he is currently.

EDIT: Also, Bryne was long gone from writing Superman during MoS 33.

I'm in a win win situation here. Assuming Superman back then was stronger than he is now, then DD will dog walk the team by his lonesome because Superman was totally helpless against him (even with a mother box). Even that Superman couldn't even put a scratch on the indestructible metal of the missiles but DS easily and effortlessly instant vapored them with his OE. So its fair to say that the power of the OE is astronomically more powerful than that Superman himself. But HP DD had no shown damage against the OE. Thus he is astronomically more powerful (in strength and durability) than that Superman.

Writers after Bryne (I'm not sure who) said that they wanted Superman be stronger to draw back the fans that were lost because of how Bryne severely weakened him. They wanted to do it gradually and not all at once.

how does your brain process this stuff?

you're allowed to admit wrong you know

Originally posted by Enyalus
As you were gracious enough to answer my PM, I'll lay this out a little better than I did before.

MoS #30:

That is the Lobo feat you're referring to? And it's impressive. Damn impressive. But as you can see, he knows something's up. 3 issues later, its explained in a bit more detail:

MoS #33:
They resolve it in Superman #89, if you want to check it out afterwards from that. But you can clearly see that the increase in Superman's power was unnatural and they fix it. So feats around this time, such as the one-shot Lobo thing, aren't typical or the norm for him in that era and really shouldn't be used.

That had nothing to do with the Lobo feat. That was something entirely different altogether. Superman's strength has been increasing ever since Bryne left. If not then why is current Superman stronger then? Obviously Superman not only had but he also KEPT his strength increase.

There are two things to contend with.

1. The argument that Lobo Superman isn't stronger than today's version.

Current Superman kept his surge increase of power as to why he is stronger nowadays. So you must prove that the Lobo Superman was stronger than today's Superman since today's Superman has better feats.

2. The argument that Lobo Superman is stronger than today's version.

Assuming the Lobo Superman (not the fully mutated Superman) was stronger than current Superman, then since Superman's current feats bests Lobo Superman's feats then current Superman can easily achieve the Lobo feat as well. A>B1, C>B2, but B2>B1 so C>B1.

See I win if Lobo Superman is stronger and I win if he isn't.

Originally posted by h1a8
See I win if Lobo Superman is stronger and I win if he isn't.

My heart isn't even into this right now, so pardon if it's sloppy.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's not only impossible but it is false to say that Superman is stronger than current Superman when Superman at that time has no feats that put him greater in strength than current Superman. The Lobo feat was great but he has had better ones than that currently.

Originally posted by Enyalus
But yeah, Superman is definitely stronger currently than back then. He got that power up after being killed by Doomsday, then again after being split into the two Energy Supermen and reuniting into regular Supes, then again during Our Worlds At War when Mongul trains him, and again in Up, Up, And Away most recently (although IMO that was only a thought-speed and sensory upgrade). If I missed any powerups, I'm sure someone else will hammer me.

That aside, the brief time period when Superman's cells act up (5-6 issues, no more than that) show explicitly that Superman's power was well increased beyond the normal. Those 5-6 issues (in 1994) make him stronger than the regular 1994 Superman. In other words, it goes like this:

Lobo-feat Superman > 1994 Superman.
Current Superman > 1994 Superman.

You cannot definitively say that Current Superman is stronger than the Lobo-feat Superman because that Superman was using an unnatural amp. It is exactly like using the sundipped Superman from OWAW (2001) and claiming he is weaker than Current Supes because Current Supes has more/higher/better feats. It is completely incorrect. Superman had an amp for the Lobo-feat, thus rendering whatever you think his power level at, null and void. You can't use it as an accurate depiction of a standard 1994 Superman anymore than you can use 2001 sundipped Superman and claim its a fair comparison for a normal Superman of the year 2001. Another example was one I already provided earlier, that of JLA v3, #46:

September 2000. In it, obviously Superman is amped. The exposure to red kryptonite has turned his skin see-through so that more solar energy gets into his system, thereby granting him greater power. He has no feats like that, but it is obvious that he is more powerful than a regular Superman as written back in 2000. One could also make the claim that this Superman, because of that amp, is stronger than Current Superman. No, he doesn't have feats to back it up. But what he does have is on-panel depiction - he is literally bursting with energy and power so much so that he cannot control himself. Does Current Supes have that level of power? No.

Ditto argument for the Lobo-feat Superman when compared to Current Superman, and his hulking form only three issues later. Now, if sometime in the near future Superman one-shots Lobo into space again, I'll retract that position. Until that happens....

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm in a win win situation here. Assuming Superman back then was stronger than he is now, then DD will dog walk the team by his lonesome because Superman was totally helpless against him (even with a mother box). Even that Superman couldn't even put a scratch on the indestructible metal of the missiles but DS easily and effortlessly instant vapored them with his OE. So its fair to say that the power of the OE is astronomically more powerful than that Superman himself. But HP DD had no shown damage against the OE. Thus he is astronomically more powerful (in strength and durability) than that Superman.

Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey was written in January 1994.
Superman: Man of Steel #30-33 was written from February to May 1994. Thus, the Superman who took on H/P DD and got his ass kicked was the regular-strengthed 1994 Superman...albeit amped by a Motherbox. His showing next month, against Lobo, shows a vast amp in his strength...as Superman himself notes (the scans of which I've already posted.) Superman has no amp besides the Motherbox when facing H/P DD, and H/P DD's performance against him has no bearing on how H/P DD would fare against the more strength-amped Superman to come in the following months.

Secondly, H/P DD was either briefly KO'd by the Omega Beams (not the OE) or killed. I prefer KO'd, but there is no evidence either way. So yes, DD did take damage from it.

Originally posted by h1a8
Writers after Bryne (I'm not sure who) said that they wanted Superman be stronger to draw back the fans that were lost because of how Bryne severely weakened him. They wanted to do it gradually and not all at once.

Originally posted by h1a8
There are two things to contend with.

1. [b]The argument that Lobo Superman isn't stronger than today's version.

Current Superman kept his surge increase of power as to why he is stronger nowadays. So you must prove that the Lobo Superman was stronger than today's Superman since today's Superman has better feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
2. [b] The argument that Lobo Superman is stronger than today's version.

Assuming the Lobo Superman (not the fully mutated Superman) was stronger than current Superman, then since Superman's current feats bests Lobo Superman's feats then current Superman can easily achieve the Lobo feat as well. [/B]

Bottom line is: for the Lobo feat Superman was amped/malfunctioning. Anything he did during the time he was amped/malfunctioning is not standard or representative of his true power and strength for the time period and is unusable to further any kind of argument regarding either H/P DD or Darkseid.

Originally posted by Enyalus
My heart isn't even into this right now, so pardon if it's sloppy.

Quan stole your heart didnt he?

Originally posted by The Nuul
Quan stole your heart didnt he?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
how does your brain process this stuff?

I'll add the obvious that since Hunter/Prey was a special 3-issue mini it wasn't in continuity with the ongoing monthly series' anyway. Not that it matters, as H/P came before the cellular malfunctioning in real-life scheduling.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
False and False.
Thanos loses to Odin and Darkseid kills DD with the OE long enough to constitute a forum win.

Pretty much. The key is for Thanos will go down first so Odin & Darkseid can crack the hard nut that is HP Doomsday. While Doomsday seems beyond death through scientific means, in comics magic > science. Odin's stalemated Surtur; he can find the way to stop Doomsday.

Originally posted by roughrider
Pretty much. The key is for Thanos will go down first so Odin & Darkseid can crack the hard nut that is HP Doomsday. While Doomsday seems beyond death through scientific means, in comics magic > science. Odin's stalemated Surtur; he can find the way to stop Doomsday.

We've also seen a weaker Thanos go rounds with Odin.

Originally posted by Enyalus
My heart isn't even into this right now, so pardon if it's sloppy.

You're not getting it, apparently. 1994 Superman was weaker than current Superman. Yes. Absolutely. In fact, I've already cited where and when Superman has gotten upgrades Post-Crisis:

That aside, the brief time period when Superman's cells act up (5-6 issues, no more than that) show explicitly that Superman's power was well increased beyond the normal. Those 5-6 issues (in 1994) make him stronger than the regular 1994 Superman. In other words, it goes like this:

Lobo-feat Superman > 1994 Superman.
Current Superman > 1994 Superman. [/B]

You cannot definitively say that Current Superman is stronger than the Lobo-feat Superman because that Superman was using an unnatural amp. It is exactly like using the sundipped Superman from OWAW (2001) and claiming he is weaker than Current Supes because Current Supes has more/higher/better feats. It is completely incorrect. Superman had an amp for the Lobo-feat, thus rendering whatever you think his power level at, null and void. You can't use it as an accurate depiction of a standard 1994 Superman anymore than you can use 2001 sundipped Superman and claim its a fair comparison for a normal Superman of the year 2001. Another example was one I already provided earlier, that of JLA v3, #46:

Ditto argument for the Lobo-feat Superman when compared to Current Superman, and his hulking form only three issues later. Now, if sometime in the near future Superman one-shots Lobo into space again, I'll retract that position. Until that happens....

I've calculated an upper estimate for the Lobo feat. But the current feats Superman has took more force to accomplish. That means that current Superman can easily achieve the Lobo feat (which takes less strength than what current Superman already achieved). It is not the who did it, but what was done. For example, if a more powerful mutated Spider-man lifted a car then you can invalid the feat because it wasn't a normal Spider-man. This is because normal Spider-man lifted a truck, which proves he too can lift the car as well. Do you understand the logic?

Secondly, H/P DD was either briefly KO'd by the Omega Beams (not the OE) or killed. I prefer KO'd, but there is no evidence either way. So yes, DD did take damage from it.

I know nothing about 'writers interviews' and whatever but yes, again, Superman has increased in strength since his Bryne days. Which were long before 1994. Bryne stopped writing the Superman title late in 1988. Numerous writers took over after his absence. But you are citing what Superman did with an amp (Lobo-feat Superman) and attempting to say that it was a standard showing for what Superman of that era can do. And that is false.

Bottom line is: for the Lobo feat Superman was amped/malfunctioning. Anything he did during the time he was amped/malfunctioning is not standard or representative of his true power and strength for the time period and is unusable to further any kind of argument regarding either H/P DD or Darkseid.

Let me tell you something you might not know. But the weakest Superman in modern times (Byrne's Superman) still had feats that put him at least in the multi billions of tons range. This alone makes that weak Superman almost strong enough to achieve the Lobo feat too. So HP Superman which is much stronger than Byrne's Superman should easily be able to replicate the Lobo feat.

Hunter Prey took place after the Lobo incident and before the Hulking incident. Thus HP Superman > or = Lobo Superman

Originally posted by h1a8
I've calculated an upper estimate for the Lobo feat. But the current feats Superman has took more force to accomplish. That means that current Superman can easily achieve the Lobo feat (which takes less strength than what current Superman already achieved). It is not the who did it, but what was done. For example, if a more powerful mutated Spider-man lifted a car then you can invalid the feat because it wasn't a normal Spider-man. This is because normal Spider-man lifted a truck, which proves he too can lift the car as well. Do you understand the logic?

Originally posted by h1a8
You can't say he was koed or killed because neither was shown. Otherwise, you would be worst than a bad debater (which you are not), you would be a liar. Actually you are losing your sense of reality because you are convincing yourself subconsciously that these events really happened. WE MUST GO BY THE WRITER'S INTENTIONS.

Originally posted by h1a8
Maybe it is, but after Superman returned to normal state some issues later who's to say he wasn't at the level where the Lobo feat took place and not below. I say this because of what the writers said about how they wanted to make Superman stronger anyway.

Originally posted by h1a8
Also, my point was to show that the Lobo feat is still valid towards current Superman only, not HP Superman.

"Assuming Superman back then was stronger than he is now, then DD will dog walk the team by his lonesome because Superman was totally helpless against him (even with a mother box)."

Nevertheless...okay.

Originally posted by h1a8
Let me tell you something you might not know. But the weakest Superman in modern times (Byrne's Superman) still had feats that put him at least in the multi billions of tons range. This alone makes that weak Superman almost strong enough to achieve the Lobo feat too.

Originally posted by h1a8 [b]
Hunter Prey took place after the Lobo incident and before the Hulking incident. [/B]

Odin suspends DD in the air indefinitely and kills thanos. team 2 ftw.

Originally posted by Enyalus

This entire line of thought is incorrect. Most 'amped' versions of characters don't have better feats than their regular versions. Why? Because they aren't in nearly as many issues so don't have the time to rack up all those better feats. Regardless, if a character is 'amped' then by definition he's stronger than the regular version. You can't say that a "more powerful mutated Spider-Man" isn't more powerful than regular Spider-Man simply because regular Spider-Man has better feats. Of course he does. He's got tons more issues to appear in.[/B]

You want to talk about writer intentions but expect people to believe that H/P DD, who is by far physically stronger than a motherbox amped Superman and the Darkseid avatar would be pinned for several moments underneath some rubble, and that's the reason he was down? Please. That's not even plausible. The much more plausible explanation is that he was temporarily KO'd by the Omega Beams.

Who is to say...how about Superman himself? They fixed his cellular problem to bring him back down to his normal power levels. Superman himself says that his power levels against Lobo were above the norm. What does this mean? That Superman gets bumped down back to his normal operating levels and would not be able to replicate what he did while amped. What you're suggesting is by no means obvious and requires a leap of faith.

It didn't look that way when you said,

"Assuming Superman back then was stronger than he is now, then DD will dog walk the team by his lonesome because Superman was totally helpless against him (even with a mother box)."

Nevertheless...okay.

Lobo weighs 1640 lbs. If you use real-life numbers and math and physics, then plenty of characters would be capable of putting him into orbit with one punch. Like you said before, you have to go by writer intentions. They aren't sitting there doing derivatives and 12-step logarithms when they're writing their shit. It's not scientifically accurate. It's comic-book science. Not real world science.

That's right! Moving planets, lifting billions of ton mountains, and performing Mageddon feats are more impressive than the Lobo feat. Thus going by writer's intention only (and not math) Byrne's Superman as well as current Superman can achieve the Lobo feat too. But going by math and physics only current Superman can achieve Lobo feat, almost Byrne Superman can do it though.

For one, that's not correct. Two, again, it doesn't make a difference because H/P was a special/mini-series and out of normal Superman continuity.

Originally posted by Priest
Odin suspends DD in the air indefinitely and kills thanos. team 2 ftw.

Odin won't get a chance to move if DD uses he top speed.
Also, DD can shoot a claw through Odin's head while suspended or even evolve to release himself from the air.

Originally posted by h1a8
The OE pushed him into the rubble. It didn't take him much time to get out. He got out in one panel. What did you expect him to get out in 0 panels? Or did you expect him not to even get buried? Because what you speak is nonsense.

I'm not dealing with the rest. If someone besides you enters the topic with something else I object to, I may jump back in, but otherwise I'm done with this match. I've said everything I wanted to say.

Originally posted by Enyalus

He gets struck by the OB (1 panel) then pushed into the structure that collapses (1 panel). It takes 7 panels before we see his arm punch out from the rubble. 7.

I'm not dealing with the rest. If someone besides you enters the topic with something else I object to, I may jump back in, but otherwise I'm done with this match. I've said everything I wanted to say. [/B]

You made me did out my old comics. Man are they rusty.

Right after DS finished blasting, DD busted out in the third panel. It was ton's of ruble on top of him mind you. DS barely turned around before DD busted out. IMO, that is fast as hell even if DD wasn't koed at all.

Originally posted by h1a8
Odin won't get a chance to move if DD uses he top speed.
Also, DD can shoot a claw through Odin's head while suspended or even evolve to release himself from the air.

Originally posted by h1a8
Odin won't get a chance to move if DD uses he top speed.
Also, DD can shoot a claw through Odin's head while suspended or even evolve to release himself from the air.

😱