Originally posted by dadudemon
Curving bullet trajectories: impossible.Dodging automatic gunfire from 4 sources from less than 20 feet away withOUT having super-human speed: impossible.
We've already discussed this though.
The concept of Gun Kata is illogical. Not only that, it completely nullifies the accuracy and skills of ANY opponent. Even without curving bullets, Wesley can see and hit objects as small and fast as the wings of a fly. But when you apply the illogical concept of Gun Kata, no feat will count for anything against it. Lets say we have an Android, programed to perfection in skill and accuracy. In all tests, it has 100% accuracy and has never missed its targets under any conditions. If you pitted that against Preston, Preston would still automatically win due to the Gun Kata limitless fallacy. I thought you agreed with this previously.
Heck, going with Gun Kata, you can't give me a reason why Preston wouldn't win against Zero, 47, Wesley, Fox, Bourne and Mr X at the same time, although I wouldn't be surprised if you said he would win, its not the first time I've heard such a thing.
Originally posted by Placidity
The concept of Gun Kata is illogical. Not only that, it completely nullifies the accuracy and skills of ANY opponent. Even without curving bullets, Wesley can see and hit objects as small and fast as the wings of a fly. But when you apply the illogical concept of Gun Kata, no feat will count for anything against it.
Gun Kata allows the practitioner to avoid bullets by calculating the trajectory. I don't understand why that would be illogical in a fictional universe. Bullet-timers can dodge bullets by reacting to them after they're fired. Clerics calculate the trajectory of the bullet instead of actually reacting to it. Different ways of avoiding gunfire I guess. And since when is Gun Kata infallible? I'm sure it can be overwhelmed by sufficient gunfire, or another opponent with equal reaction/bullet-timing skills. Heck, a bullet-timer's reaction can also be overwhelmed by enough bullets too. I'm pretty sure Gun Kata isn't made out to be invincible. If Bourne wasn't able to tag Neo with a bullet, would it be because Neo reacted to the bullet and dodged? Or would we say Bourne's accuracy and skills are nullified?
Or am I misunderstanding you lol?
Lets say we have an Android, programed to perfection in skill and accuracy. In all tests, it has 100% accuracy and has never missed its targets under any conditions. If you pitted that against Preston, Preston would still automatically win due to the Gun Kata limitless fallacy.
Preston's ability to calculate gun trajectories will allow him to dodge the android's fire here. A bullet-timer like Yulaw would easily be able to avoid the android's gun fire too. The android missing isn't a knock against its aim at all, as accuracy is nullified if the opponent is able to dodge bullets, especially from just one gunman. Unless if the Android can shoot bullets faster than normal, it won't be able to hit a bullet-timer.
Heck, going with Gun Kata, you can't give me a reason why Preston wouldn't win against Zero, 47, Wesley, Fox, Bourne and Mr X at the same time, although I wouldn't be surprised if you said he would win, its not the first time I've heard such a thing.
No, he'd lose that. Wesley and Fox, IMO, can overtax Gun Kata, as both of them have bullet-timing abilities, and they have that bullet-curving that effectively cancels out Preston's ability to calculate bullet trajectories, since the bullet isn't traveling in a normal straight line.
Originally posted by Placidity
We've already discussed this though.The concept of Gun Kata is illogical. Not only that, it completely nullifies the accuracy and skills of ANY opponent. Even without curving bullets, Wesley can see and hit objects as small and fast as the wings of a fly. But when you apply the illogical concept of Gun Kata, no feat will count for anything against it. Lets say we have an Android, programed to perfection in skill and accuracy. In all tests, it has 100% accuracy and has never missed its targets under any conditions. If you pitted that against Preston, Preston would still automatically win due to the Gun Kata limitless fallacy. I thought you agreed with this previously.
I did and my post that you quoted indicates that.
Originally posted by Placidity
Heck, going with Gun Kata, you can't give me a reason why Preston wouldn't win against Zero, 47, Wesley, Fox, Bourne and Mr X at the same time, although I wouldn't be surprised if you said he would win, its not the first time I've heard such a thing.
Against zero? I can't see why Preston could not win but Zero is definitely faster than Preston on the draw (or just about anyone for that matter...we'd have to go to some old west duels to see something on part with Zero. lulz)
Personally, I think Zero solos the Wanted team. Preston is not needed. However, he's there to make things seem "even" but that's like putting prime Hulk Hogan against Little Miss Sunshine (Olive Hoover) and then giving Hulk spiked knuckles. 😆
Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Gun Kata allows the practitioner to avoid bullets by calculating the trajectory. I don't understand why that would be illogical in a fictional universe. Bullet-timers can dodge bullets by reacting to them after they're fired. Clerics calculate the trajectory of the bullet instead of actually reacting to it. Different ways of avoiding gunfire I guess. And since when is Gun Kata infallible? I'm sure it can be overwhelmed by sufficient gunfire, or another opponent with equal reaction/bullet-timing skills. Heck, a bullet-timer's reaction can also be overwhelmed by enough bullets too. I'm pretty sure Gun Kata isn't made out to be invincible. If Bourne wasn't able to tag Neo with a bullet, would it be because Neo reacted to the bullet and dodged? Or would we say Bourne's accuracy and skills are nullified?Or am I misunderstanding you lol?
You misunderstand. It would require Preston to move at super-human speeds. Preston is, at best, peak human in Agility, endurance, and speed (not strength, from what I could tell.) Preston never moves at superhuman speeds. Therefore, a logical problem is occuring with himi dodging trajectories and bullets: we see him dodge bullets AFTER guns were fired, giving us a very illogical result of him being a bullet dodger with no superhuman speed. An example of another bullet dogder is Ozymandias from Watchmen. We actually had time slowed down and he moved as superhuman speeds in order to dodge that bullet: the director (editor) had the shot slowed down to show us how fast Ozy was. This does not occur for Preston and he only moved at human speeds in the film: ergo, logical physics problem.
That's just the "physics" approach to it, alone. There's also the problem that Placidity pointed out, long ago, of Preston's flavor of Gun Kata where everyone misses the ever elusive John Preston. No matter what they; including a hallway of 20 fully-automatic assault rifle armed top-level gramaton gaurds; do, they always miss him. Not one shot ever hits Preston, nicks Preston, or even is shown coming close (like his hair moving just a bit from the bullet passing).
Preston's ability to calculate gun trajectories will allow him to dodge the android's fire here. A bullet-timer like Yulaw would easily be able to avoid the android's gun fire too. The android missing isn't a knock against its aim at all, as accuracy is nullified if the opponent is able to dodge bullets, especially from just one gunman. Unless if the Android can shoot bullets faster than normal, it won't be able to hit a bullet-timer.
Originally posted by DarkNemesis
No, he'd lose that. Wesley and Fox, IMO, can overtax Gun Kata, as both of them have bullet-timing abilities, and they have that bullet-curving that effectively cancels out Preston's ability to calculate bullet trajectories, since the bullet isn't traveling in a normal straight line.
That argument has been destroyed, long ago. Just check back throuh the thread.
Originally posted by dadudemon
You misunderstand. It would require Preston to move at super-human speeds. Preston is, at best, peak human in Agility, endurance, and speed (not strength, from what I could tell.) Preston never moves at superhuman speeds. Therefore, a logical problem is occuring with himi dodging trajectories and bullets: we see him dodge bullets AFTER guns were fired, giving us a very illogical result of him being a bullet dodger with no superhuman speed.
Oh I see where you're coming from. Yes, you're absolutely correct, in order to dodge bullets after they're fired, the character has to move at incredible speeds, speeds that the human eye cannot track.
Here's the scene btw:
1:54 - 1:56 is the scene in question right? I see the trick they did, they showed the gunmen shoot, then quickly cut to Preston dodging. Very similar to the Hit Girl bullet dodges in this scene:
Check out 3:26 and 3:37. The exact same camera trick, gunman shoots, quickly cuts to Hit Girl dodging.
It's not possible to dodge a bullet like that by moving your head at normal speeds. I have heard some people label both those as aim-dodging, saying that they actually move before the bullets are fired, but it's just shot afterwards. I don't know, I'm just saying.
An example of another bullet dogder is Ozymandias from Watchmen. We actually had time slowed down and he moved as superhuman speeds in order to dodge that bullet: the director (editor) had the shot slowed down to show us how fast Ozy was. This does not occur for Preston and he only moved at human speeds in the film: ergo, logical physics problem.
That's true, and it's usually the way that bullet-timing scenes shot (Even if he didn't really dodge any bullets per se, the superhuman speed was definitely there).
Preston's ability to calculate gun trajectories will allow him to dodge the android's fire here. A bullet-timer like Yulaw would easily be able to avoid the android's gun fire too. The android missing isn't a knock against its aim at all, as accuracy is nullified if the opponent is able to dodge bullets, especially from just one gunman. Unless if the Android can shoot bullets faster than normal, it won't be able to hit a bullet-timer.
Lol, didn't I post this?
Yeah, now I understand Placidity's point of labeling Gun Kata as illogical. But to be honest, they did dumb down those hallway people rather badly, most of them didn't even fire a shot off, and when they did, they were already shot, making their own shots fly all over the place as they fall to the ground.
So what exactly were you and Placidity debating over then?
Originally posted by DarkNemesis
Oh I see where you're coming from. Yes, you're absolutely correct, in order to dodge bullets after they're fired, the character has to move at incredible speeds, speeds that the human eye cannot track.Here's the scene btw:
1:54 - 1:56 is the scene in question right? I see the trick they did, they showed the gunmen shoot, then quickly cut to Preston dodging. Very similar to the Hit Girl bullet dodges in this scene:
Check out 3:26 and 3:37. The exact same camera trick, gunman shoots, quickly cuts to Hit Girl dodging.
It's not possible to dodge a bullet like that by moving your head at normal speeds. I have heard some people label both those as aim-dodging, saying that they actually move before the bullets are fired, but it's just shot afterwards. I don't know, I'm just saying.
That's true, and it's usually the way that bullet-timing scenes shot (Even if he didn't really dodge any bullets per se, the superhuman speed was definitely there).
Lol, didn't I post this?
Yeah, now I understand Placidity's point of labeling Gun Kata as illogical. But to be honest, they did dumb down those hallway people rather badly, most of them didn't even fire a shot off, and when they did, they were already shot, making their own shots fly all over the place as they fall to the ground.
So what exactly were you and Placidity debating over then?
About the Hit Girl scene. We actually see how fast the bullet travles as it streaks across the screen. I've posted on it before but the bullets in Kick *ss are actually traveling significantly slower than real bullets. I was supposed to do a frame by frame calc on the actual bullet speed for the film a while back, but I never got around to getting the film on Blu-Ray so I could do so.
Originally posted by DarkNemesisYeah, now I understand Placidity's point of labeling Gun Kata as illogical.
Thanks to DDM.
Although there is another point that may have been left out.
Lets assume that Gun Kata works even with human speed.
We all know Gun Kata is all about avoiding bullet trajectories blah blah blah etc.
However, in the final hallway scene, there are at least 20 men unloading automatic fire in Preston's immediate area, which means, wherever he stepped to (to avoid the bullet path), he would still be in the line of fire. Of course he doesn't get shot, ....because ...? Which is another point I've made about the limitless fallacy. According to that feat, there is nothing to suggest that Gun Kata can be overtaxed, since he has already defied the impossible.
Another (or the same) argument for Preston/Gun Kata vs Wesley:
1. Wesley sees Preston/ Preston sees Wesley
2. They both raise their guns, Preston predicts how Wesley will
shoot (lets not get into the bullet bending isn't predictable stuff yet) and does his little dance to avoid the bullet.
3. Wesley activates adrenaline mode, where he perceives things move so slowly, he can see the wings of a fly in flight.
4. Wesley aims the gun at the veerrrryy slow target (Preston's head) and fires.
5. Explain how Wesley misses.
This is just an example to make the truth easier to see, when in fact, Wesley doesn't even need slow-mo perception to hit Preston. I mean think about it. You raise you gun at Preston, and he moves before you fire (if he moves after you fire then thats superspeed, which he clearly doesn't have). You see him move, and you shoot him at his new position. Simple.
The same thing can be used against Zero. Zero does indeed have a quick draw in REAL TIME. But when Wesley is pumping adrenaline, Zero slows down.
Originally posted by Placidity
Thanks to DDM.Although there is another point that may have been left out.
Lets assume that Gun Kata works even with human speed.
We all know Gun Kata is all about avoiding bullet trajectories blah blah blah etc.
However, in the final hallway scene, there are at least 20 men unloading automatic fire in Preston's immediate area, which means, wherever he stepped to (to avoid the bullet path), he would still be in the line of fire. Of course he doesn't get shot, ....because ...? Which is another point I've made about the limitless fallacy. According to that feat, there is nothing to suggest that Gun Kata can be overtaxed, since he has already defied the impossible.
Another (or the same) argument for Preston/Gun Kata vs Wesley:
1. Wesley sees Preston/ Preston sees Wesley
2. They both raise their guns, Preston predicts how Wesley will
shoot (lets not get into the bullet bending isn't predictable stuff yet) and does his little dance to avoid the bullet.3. Wesley activates adrenaline mode, where he perceives things move so slowly, he can see the wings of a fly in flight.
4. Wesley aims the gun at the veerrrryy slow target (Preston's head) and fires.
5. Explain how Wesley misses.
This is just an example to make the truth easier to see, when in fact, Wesley doesn't even need slow-mo perception to hit Preston. I mean think about it. You raise you gun at Preston, and he moves before you fire (if he moves after you fire then thats superspeed, which he clearly doesn't have). You see him move, and you shoot him at his new position. Simple.
The same thing can be used against Zero. Zero does indeed have a quick draw in REAL TIME. But when Wesley is pumping adrenaline, Zero slows down.
That's easy to answer:
Preston simply spun around, in the air, and the wall, directly behind him, was swiss cheese. There's no way just spinning in the air caused them to miss when most of those bullets would have passed right through Preston while he was spinning. IT'S MAGIC! 😄
Originally posted by Robtard
If we're going to say skills/powers are not viable as feats on the grounds that they're illogical, then there goes a shit load of movie feats that can't be used with many a character.
That was my logic, as well. Bullet bending is every bit as silly as bullets seemingly passing right through Preston without hurting him.
Originally posted by Placidity
This is just an example to make the truth easier to see, when in fact, Wesley doesn't even need slow-mo perception to hit Preston. I mean think about it. You raise you gun at Preston, and he moves before you fire (if he moves after you fire then thats superspeed, which he clearly doesn't have). You see him move, and you shoot him at his new position. Simple.
While I do agree with you about the faulty nature of Gun Kata, I'd argue that what you described above isn't that simple. You need more than just average or normal speed for that, or at the very least similar reflexes to the dodger. Aim-dodging requires the dodger to have far superior reflexes than the gunman. This way, the dodger can move out of the line of fire before the gunman pulls the trigger. If the gunman has comparable reflexes/reaction to the dodger, however, then the latter is in trouble, as the gunman can effectively keep up with what the dodger is trying to do and shoot him at a good time.
Put it this way, if you give someone like me a gun, and ask me to tag John Preston, even logically, I wouldn't be able to do it, because Preston's reflexes, although not superhuman, are still vastly superior to mine. He'll have already dodged while I'm in the process of pulling the trigger.