And? The start point and end point of the bullet remains the same. By moving around at breakneck speeds as Preston does, he will avoid getting hit. Once the bullet leaves the gun, Wesley has no control over it. Wesley and Fox can curve all day and all night, but Zero and Preston, with their athleticism/agility/speed, will never be where Preston/Fox were aiming.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And? The start point and end point of the bullet remains the same. By moving around at breakneck speeds as Preston does, he will avoid getting hit. Once the bullet leaves the gun, Wesley has no control over it. Wesley and Fox can curve all day and all night, but Zero and Preston, with their athleticism/agility/speed, will never be where Preston/Fox were aiming.
If you actually looked at the diagram, even if they moved left or right, they'd still get hit.
And no, neither of them have super speed. "Break-neck speeds"...pluh-eaze.
Originally posted by PlaciditySee, thats the thing, it's more than just left and right, they will be all over the place. Preston and Zero will be leaping and twisting, they will never be hit. You telling me that Fox/Gibson can WILL their bullets to alter it's path AFTER it leaves their gun? haermm
If you actually looked at the diagram, even if they moved left or right, they'd still get hit.And no, neither of them have super speed. "Break-neck speeds"...pluh-eaze.
And yeah, compared to Fox/Gibson, they DO have breakneck speeds, especially Zero.
What dont you get? The bullet benders fire their guns, the bullet leaves the barrel, once that happens, it's out of their hands. If their desired target is no longer in the same place, the bullet hits nothing. At that point, rapid fire (which they cannot block) does them in.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
See, thats the thing, it's more than just left and right, they will be all over the place. Preston and Zero will be leaping and twisting, they will never be hit.
On the contrary, they will be. Wesley shoots bullets out of the air, do you think he isn't going to hit targets as large as Zero and Preston? How will they know where to move? Leaping is a bad idea, once in the air, Zero's trajectory will be predictable and he will get hit easily.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You telling me that Fox/Gibson can WILL their bullets to alter it's path AFTER it leaves their gun? haermm
Never said such a thing.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And yeah, compared to Fox/Gibson, they DO have breakneck speeds, especially Zero.
Nope. Zero moves at human speeds.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
What dont you get? The bullet benders fire their guns, the bullet leaves the barrel, once that happens, it's out of their hands. If their desired target is no longer in the same place, the bullet hits nothing. At that point, rapid fire (which they cannot block) does them in.
No. What don't you get? In the diagrams, Preston is no longer in the same spot yet he could still get hit, it depends on whether he knows where to move, which he doesn't.
Originally posted by PlaciditySee, what you are doing now is praising Fox and Gibson as uber marksmen and totally ignoring Preston and Zero's marksmanship.
On the contrary, they will be. Wesley shoots bullets out of the air, do you think he isn't going to hit targets as large as Zero and Preston? How will they know where to move? Leaping is a bad idea, once in the air, Zero's trajectory will be predictable and he will get hit easily.
Wesley shoots bullets out of the air because he is a bullet bender himself, he knows the flight path of the incoming bullet and where to intersect it. There's no way in hell he can predict where Preston and Zero will be.
Never said such a thing.You're kinda implying it.
Nope. Zero moves at human speeds.Watch Origins again, he most certainly does not.
No. What don't you get? In the diagrams, Preston is no longer in the same spot yet he could still get hit, it depends on whether he knows where to move, which he doesn't.Doesn't matter if he knows WHERE to move to, point is that he will be always on the move, auto firing the whole time, he is far more agile/athletic than Fox/Gibson could ever hope to be. Hell, the fat ass butcher managed to avoid getting shot by Wesley for a while, if he can, Preston/Zero can do it in spades.
Hey, tell me,when did Fox and Gibson ever hit a target that can move around like Preston and Zero? Hmm, that would be......never. Their targets were mostly stationary, MAYBE moving a SMALL bit.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
See, what you are doing now is praising Fox and Gibson as uber marksmen and totally ignoring Preston and Zero's marksmanship.
Who cares? Fox and Gibson's marksmanship feats leaves Preston and Zero in the dust.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Wesley shoots bullets out of the air because he is a bullet bender himself, he knows the flight path of the incoming bullet and where to intersect it. There's no way in hell he can predict where Preston and Zero will be.
Wrong. It's because he can actually see the bullet. Hence why he can shoot the wings off a fly. And yes, he can predict where bullets are going to be before it is actually fired. He knows gun kata too.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You're kinda implying it.
No, no I'm not that would be stupid.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Watch Origins again, he most certainly does not.
I've seen it a few times. You want to say he can do something, the onus is on you to prove it.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi[/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=12520962]Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
[B]Doesn't matter if he knows WHERE to move to, point is that he will be always on the move, auto firing the whole time, he is far more agile/athletic than Fox/Gibson could ever hope to be.
Actually it does matter where he moves. You keep ignoring this - theres a chance he might actually move into the trajectory of the bullet.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Hell, the fat ass butcher managed to avoid getting shot by Wesley for a while, if he can, Preston/Zero can do it in spades.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Hey, tell me,when did Fox and Gibson ever hit a target that can move around like Preston and Zero? Hmm, that would be......never. Their targets were mostly stationary, MAYBE moving a SMALL bit.
Move around like Preston and Zero? What is that supposed to imply?
Zero has good leaping ability - he leaps high and far, he does not move around like Yoda or Spider-man. He also does not have super speed. He also only jumps when he needs to - like jumping over a fence, or to quickly get into the helicopter.
Preston just side steps.
As for your question, how about shooting the wings off several flies?
Answer the question - which is harder to shoot?
A. The wings of a moving fly.
B. Someone who sidesteps Or Someone who jumps around.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Sorry I had to post the pics in more than one post, KMC wouldn't let me post them all at once.Point is that Preston will be on the move at all times, you know, like he was in Equilibrium. He won't stand there at point B and allow Wesley to cap him. So the trajectories are all thrown off, so what? Preston knows this beforehand. He will know to be on the move at all times, and he is a deadeye shot. That, in addition to his auto fire, and Wesley is done.
I know, it's all bullshit, full of holes, blah blah yada yada, go ahead and ignore the obvious.
You mean like the fact that Wesley isn't an idiot and won't know to compensate for where the likely point Preston will move to given that he knows about Preston's Gun Kata.
Gun Kata is based on positioning the body to avoid statistically predictable trajectories of bullets...I really don't know what's so difficult to understand in the fact that if a bullet can approach a target from any angle completely independantly from the position of the shooter then it is 100% completely unpredictable.
And? The start point and end point of the bullet remains the same. By moving around at breakneck speeds as Preston does,
Can't say I seen any examples of breakneck speed that actually meant Preston was able to see and deliberately avoid a bullet.
Tell me you're getting this.
Don't try and patronise me. You're clearly the one with the mental deficiency here.
There's no way in hell he can predict where Preston and Zero will be.
Except that is what all sharpshooters do when they are firing on a moving target. Neither Preston or Zero move at superhuman speeds. Gibson and Fox can compensate based on your thread stipulation of having knowledge about their opponents. Neither Preston or Zero can compensate for bullets which can come at them from any angle. It's impossible to do so unless they can physically see the bullet and react to it. This is not what Gun Kata is about and we see no examples of Zero doing it either.
Watch Origins again, he most certainly does not.
The only thing he does which is faster than a human reaction is shoot the cigar out of Wolverine's mouth and even then it's not that much faster. He certainly can't move his body around an open space any faster than a normal human.
Doesn't matter if he knows WHERE to move to, point is that he will be always on the move, auto firing the whole time, he is far more agile/athletic than Fox/Gibson could ever hope to be.
I take it you must be completely forgetting about the train assasination scene.
The only thing that Preston does that is athletic is in the corridor fight scene when he flips around back on to his feet. The rest, for the most part, is just him standing in one spot either firing on using his sword.
The gun kata treats the gun as a total weapon, each fluid position representing a maximum kill zone, inflicting maximum damage on the maximum number of opponents while keeping the defender clear of the statistically traditional trajectories of return fire.
Again, there's the statement about Gun Kata from the movies. Note the line "statistically traditional trajectories of return fire"
Is there anything traditional about curved bullet trajectories?...No. Thus rendering it nigh on useless. Even more so when Gun Kata is based on positions rather than pure movement.
Oddly enough Gibson's raid on the fraternity showed him to be constantly on the move at a faster rate and aiming more accurately than Preston as most of his kills were straight between the eyes. Preston, on the other hand, misses with most of his shots. Shown by the fact that there are many bullet holes in the walls surrounding the guards he kills.
Hey, tell me,when did Fox and Gibson ever hit a target that can move around like Preston and Zero? Hmm, that would be......never. Their targets were mostly stationary, MAYBE moving a SMALL bit.
Just as difficult to hit a stationary target while the shooter is moving. Doing it from a train travelling at high speed to a target a large distance away through a window and being unable to see the target at the time with a pistol.
And again...Being able to shoot bullets out of the air or the wings off moving flies means I think they'd easily be able to hit Preston and Zero.
As for the Butcher...Placidity said it all. Cutting bullets out of the air with his knives is as impressive as it gets.
Originally posted by Placidity
Stanard bullet curve shot.Bullet shot straight which curves until close to target.
Cross shooting off two bullets, with different trajectories which would hit its target if it moved left/right or diagonally forward left/right.
lol
That's not how I envisioned it, in 3D space, at all. You forgot up, down, backwards, and forwards. You have him moving only in two, very linear, and uncharacteristic direction.
Also, the bullets wouldn't travel in a perfect circle and, in fact, it only happened once: fox shot a bullet at the end there that killed everyone.
All the other shots curve, more, at the beginning of the shot, and, as they should, as it travels, the shot becomes less curved, OR, vice versa.
Despite that fact that none of that could be done in the real world, with any kind of bullet.
Still doesn't change anything about the bullet. And, you're drawings are wrong, as well.
Not only does it incorrectly assume Preston is dodging any bullets, it also assumes that he will dodge right into the bullet's path when there's many many other locations that he could and would dodge into.
For some reason, an entire room of 10 or more men, armed with fully automatics, missed him completely. This is dealing with many more trajectories, at once, with multiple bullets from each trajectory.
This is on top of him not only dodging them, but not even getting nicked by them. Meaning, he's dodging them by a comfortable margin.
Now, assuming your drawing above (which is not a perfect ellipsoid, it actually elongates at the beginning or end, in the movie, as it should, except for one shot by Fox at the end), just moving in the same exact direction he would use to avoid the bullet, would still work. This, however, incorrectly assumes that they would even get a curved shot off. BTW, their curved shot is a one shot deal (I know they can do it multiple times, but they literally don't have the time to set themselves for a second shot) that takes them longer to pull off than a regular shot. They would end up with 3 bullets, each, in the chest, before the got done firing. Assuming that Preston, illogically, would stop right into the almost straight curve (cause they are curving over a long distance, so the line is virtually straight in the relatively small space the Preston is moving in), that still results in mutally assured destruction, with Zero surviving, meaning, Preston Zero still win.
That of course assumes a false premise that they would even be able to get that shot off.
Here's a much better depiction of what actually would happen:
Here's an image with an overly exaggerated curve, as it would travel. The blue one is obviously the straight shot. As I said, mere inches of a difference that would be insignificant. Preston would move out of that bullet's way (or trajectory if you guys are still hung up on that), but moving every place that would be out of the way of the regular bullet's path. That's like.....a HUGE amount of choices. He can still move in any direction, cause, guess what? The curved bullet only makes the difference of a 2 or 3 inches, at the back, of the trajectory. If he is avoiding the trajecotry, instead of the impact point, that's even better.
We know for a fact that Preston is dodging with inches of clearance: unless any of you can find an scene of Preston's clothes "flapping" or his hair flapping from the bullets whizzing by? lol. You can't. Cause he dodges with plenty of room to spare.
So, in the off-hand chance that he would uncharacteristically dodge out of the typical trajectory that we would expect, right into the curved path, which only varies, at the back, by 2 or 3 inches (or less, depending on how far away he is from Wes or Fox), they are still dead.
Let's keep things real and not gimp other characters for the sake of beating RJ in an argument. (That's all I see here: gimping to win an argument against RJ.)
Why, for some magical reason, is preston only allowed to move into the bullets' paths when he would clearly dodge out of the way of many curved shots?
Also, why is Preston being gimped by everyone? Wes and Fox would both end up with multiple bullets through their chest or head before the would even finish their arm-swing for the bullet curve. On top of that, why would Wes and Fox use a curved bullet when Preston is right there in front of them, with a clear path? Isn't that also uncharacteristic of them? Why wouldn't Wes or Fox, you know....shoot one or two of the bullets out of the air before they end up dead? But, that would be too logical: assuming that they would try to save themselves instead of making a curved shot at someone right in front of them.
Send Preston into the Assasin compound and he clears each room out in a tenth the time it took Wes and co to clear them out. He wouldn't even need suicide rats. 😆
Why would we even need to add Agent Zero, here? 😆
Originally posted by jaden101
Why does this idiotic point keep getting brought up as a defence for Preston?
Because it's not idiotic. See the image I drew, that has an exaggerated path.
Let's be clear: the only idiotic thing about this is assuming that the curved path makes any difference at all.
Not only does it incorrectly assume Preston is dodging any bullets, it also assumes that he will dodge right into the bullet's path when there's many many other locations that he could and would dodge into.
HE DOESN'T DODGE BULLETS
He uses his Gun Kata training to predict likely paths of bullets and stays out of their paths. If a bullet can come from any angle then he has no way to know which path the bullet will take therefor he can't with 100% certainty avoid them. It would be pure luck.
Also, the bullets wouldn't travel in a perfect circle and, in fact, it only happened once: fox shot a bullet at the end there that killed everyone.All the other shots curve, more, at the beginning of the shot, and, as they should, as it travels, the shot becomes less curved, OR, vice versa.
What's your point? All I see is the fact that they can make the bullet curve a large amount at the start and then go relatively straight (extremely useful if Fox and Gibson are behind cover) or go relatively straight and curve more at the end (extremely useful if Preston or Zero are behind cover)
So, in the off-hand chance that he would uncharacteristically dodge out of the typical trajectory that we would expect, right into the curved path, which only varies, at the back, by 2 or 3 inches (or less, depending on how far away he is from Wes or Fox), they are still dead.
Gun Kata is based on positions that combine maximum kill zone with minimum risk of being hit by return fire based on STRAIGHT TRAJECTORIES....So how is any of his training applicable to curved trajectories?...
(or trajectory if you guys are still hung up on that)
It's got nothing to do with us being "hung up" on it. Gun Kata is actually described in Equilibrium as being based on bullet trajectories.
Why, for some magical reason, is preston only allowed to move into the bullets' paths when he would clearly dodge out of the way of many curved shots?
His entire training is based on straight...
You know what...I'm just repeating myself. It's getting boring. I bring up points that just get ignored because there's no answer to them. Instead I just hear the same old "Preston would dodge bullets" despite the fact that Gun Kata has nothing to do with dodging bullets.
I hear the same old "Zero is uber and he'd pwn" despite the fact that he does nothing in the movie that comes close to matching the feats in Wanted...Clearly the idea that he'd win is based on the reputation from the comics which have jack shit to do with this forum.
Let's be clear: the only idiotic thing about this is assuming that the curved path makes any difference at all.
The gun kata treats the gun as a total weapon, each fluid position representing a maximum kill zone, inflicting maximum damage on the maximum number of opponents while keeping the defender clear of the statistically traditional trajectories of return fire.
That's the quote regarding Gun Kata. So tell me...How does it apply to bullets with completely unpredictable and completely untraditional trajectories?
I still see the same arguments that Preston are Zero are better aims yet no answer to the fact that they did nothing in the film that matched shooting the wings off of moving flies while having no training. No answer to the fact that most of Wesley's kill are head shots through between the eyes. No feats from Preston or Zero that match shooting bullets out the air or killing some with a head shot while firing from a moving train and curving the bullet through a window without even being able to see the target.
Originally posted by jaden101
HE DOESN'T DODGE BULLETS
HE DODGES BULLETS ALL THE TIME! THE PROBABILITIES ARE BASED ON WHERE THE BULLETS WILL BE BASED ON HIS PERSON AND WHERE HE SHOULD BE IN 3D SPACE, RELATIVE TO WHERE THOSE BULLETS WILL BE WHEN THEY PASS HIS LOCATION! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S BULLETS, NOT TRAJECTORIES. IF HE DODGED TRAJECTORIES, THEN HE WOULD GET SHOT UP! HE HAS TO DODGE THE MOST PROBABLE LOCATION THE BULLET WILL BE AS HIS CROSSES HIS AREA. LET'S PRETEND WE CAN BE PEDANTIC ABOUT IT AND SAY IT'S A TRAJECTORY WHEN IT'S REALLY A WORD GAME THAT CHANGES NOTHING OF WHAT I'VE STATED.
Nothing else you posted is relevant or should even be addressed. It's simply wrong. I've already shown you why it is. You should not post on this, again.
In other words, I win the thread. You've been pwned, hardcore.
Even if we remove the idea that Preston is dodging the most probable location the bullet will be, relative to his person, and pretend that the path...a.k.a. trajectory, has any relevance on a bending bullet, that still changes nothing of what I've stated, later, in my post. It's latching onto an idea or concept that doesn't make a difference.
My drawing even shows the path the bullets would take.
Preston still wins on speed and skill, alone.
He would make Wes and fox look like children, if it was a sword fight.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I can post in bigger text. Watch:HE DODGES BULLETS ALL THE TIME! THE PROBABILITIES ARE BASED ON WHERE THE BULLETS WILL BE BASED ON HIS PERSON AND WHERE HE SHOULD BE IN 3D SPACE, RELATIVE TO WHERE THOSE BULLETS WILL BE WHEN THEY PASS HIS LOCATION! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S BULLETS, NOT TRAJECTORIES. IF HE DODGED TRAJECTORIES, THEN HE WOULD GET SHOT UP! HE HAS TO DODGE THE MOST PROBABLE LOCATION THE BULLET WILL BE AS HIS CROSSES HIS AREA. LET'S PRETEND WE CAN BE PEDANTIC ABOUT IT AND SAY IT'S A TRAJECTORY WHEN IT'S REALLY A WORD GAME THAT CHANGES NOTHING OF WHAT I'VE STATED.
Nothing else you posted is relevant or should even be addressed. It's simply wrong. I've already shown you why it is. You should not post on this, again.
In other words, I win the thread. You've been pwned, hardcore.
The film says it's the trajectories...I'm going with the film...
To quote Willy Wonka...YOU LOSE...YOU GET NOTHING...GOOD DAY SIR.