Kratos, Link, Ganondorf, Dante vs War, Kain, LK and Bayonetta

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ok so Ill play one Zelda game and by your logic I can say what I like about any of the characters and argue against them all without you going "play a zelda game"? I dont think so, that does not even make sense.

Well based on a technicality, yes. Because if you had played a Zelda game, I'd have to be more specific about what I'm telling you to play. So it'd be more like "Play Ocarina of Time."

And when I said against you have to understand. A lot of what you do in these threads revolves around the attempted downplaying of feats of the characters against whoever you think will win. This is silly because you haven't played the games and are essentially using particular words of a story to predict how the whole thing ends. To argue against Kain would mean I said "Kain's spell lacks the power to destroy X car." I can argue against him in a different sense, by proving that Link can deflect Kain's spell with X item.

You're using the first sense of the word against.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Well based on a technicality, yes. Because if you had played a Zelda game, I'd have to be more specific about what I'm telling you to play. So it'd be more like "Play Ocarina of Time."

And when I said against you have to understand. A lot of what you do in these threads revolves around the attempted downplaying of feats of the characters against whoever you think will win. This is silly because you haven't played the games and are essentially using particular words of a story to predict how the whole thing ends. To argue against Kain would mean I said "Kain's spell lacks the power to destroy X car." I can argue against him in a different sense, by proving that Link can deflect Kain's spell with X item.

You're using the first sense of the word against.

Thats your opinion, I think you and the lollovelink club are overhyping and I am doing the necessery adjustments to make sense with the canon from the vids I have actually seen from LoZ. I am not using information I have not seen, when It seems like I am its when I am asking questions.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It'd actually probably give you enough insight to argue the events of that game in particular.

But no, I never played Soul Reaver, but BO2 isn't the only one I played. (Though I haven't played any of them recently, and I never owned any but BO2.)
It is the only one I [b]finished.

Regardless: you don't see me following Kain from thread to thread screaming that the enemies he TK's are hollow. I do call you on your bullshit, like when you claim Mist regen, which has never happened, or that the soul reaver instantly devours the soul of anyone it touches. Hell, in BO2 the Hylden lord needed to be impaled, and the Nexus stone could defeat it's power. [/B]

Hence why having played Bo2 is not enough, you would need knowledge of the whole of LoK to even get to grips with the storyline and why current Kain which is used in most threads is unique to the Bo2 version by far.

No, you follow "me" through thoe threads and troll me. By your logic you have no right to talk about mist, its completly different to the stealth mist seen in Bo2, same with the soul reaver because you only see it at the end of BO2 and it takes a plot device to defeat it, I never claim against entities with good soul resisting feats that the reaver could take them in a blow.

So now I can go and watch some vids of Kain lifting this Elder God and say that it must be incredibly light or call it toonforce based on that one specific video. Right?

you only see it at the end of BO2 and it takes a plot device to defeat it

I never claim against entities with good soul resisting feats that the reaver could take them in a blow.

Hence why having played Bo2 is not enough, you would need knowledge of the whole of LoK to even get to grips with the storyline and why current Kain which is used in most threads is unique to the Bo2 version by far.

You continually go into every Link or Ganon thread and start downplaying everythign about both characters to the point of ridiculousness, ignoring feats based simply on a characters age.

Conversely, if you present a feat by Raziel or Kain, I'm willing to accept it. Like the block throw Raziel did. I even did the math fo find Raziel's strength.

I disagree whne you start to make claims that you can't prove, like the soul reaver working on a touch, or the dark reaver's spell having no cast time, ect.

Whereas, when I tell you Link throws a Goron, you say "the Goron is light, and hollow, and brittle, and Link's a weakling!".

See the problem? The problem is, I don't pretend to be some expert on a game I haven't played.

He didnt lift the EG, I was mocking the midna feat. But using your example, assuming Kain did lift the EG, I would have to prove the EG is physical and has some muscle, I would do this by showing the EG smashing through things, the fact it burrows throughout the planet with the earth on top of it and that it can bury Kain and Raz in the cavern through its physical strength.

Hence, I would have proven its physical, flesh, muscle etc and therefore, the logical conclusion is that

Thing is Kains not toonforce because hes not got toon graphics and his powers come from vampirsm, Links strength and durability are ambigious and thats why their toonforce. They technically come from nothing, hes doing it because he ignores physics , just like a toon.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thing is Kains not toonforce because hes not got toon graphics and his powers come from vampirsm, Links strength and durability are ambigious and thats why their toonforce. They technically come from nothing, hes doing it because he ignores physics , just like a toon.

Don't even try this, because Kain's powers are never stated to come from vampirism. They would also be rather ambiguous. This is that entire argument from War and Link vs whateverthehelltheotherteamwas.

Thing is Kains not toonforce because hes not got toon graphics and his powers come from vampirsm, Links strength and durability are ambigious and thats why their toonforce. They technically come from nothing, hes doing it because he ignores physics , just like a toon.

See what I mean? Foolishness.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Don't even try this, because Kain's powers are never stated to come from vampirism. They would also be rather ambiguous. This is that entire argument from War and Link vs whateverthehelltheotherteamwas.

Yes they are, Umah points out vampires gain dark gifts, and Raziel tells us Vampires rapidly evolve, we dont need specifics such as "Kains vampirism makes him strong", thats just a given as Umah also says Vampires are physically superior to humans. These are exceptions that make a base for the feats so that their not just doing illogical feats of physics or bending physics at least not in the fiction.

Link has no such base, we would have to assume LoZ is 100% physically viable despite bouncing gorons and WW link squeeking down castle walls like a toon AND assume he was born each time somehow vastly stronger yet no physically different from other hylians.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is where, were we discussing Zelda, you'd claim both the sword and the plot device are weak.
I've seen you claim it to work on a touch.

I actually do understand the storyline, but you don't see me going around claiming to be some sort of ajudicator of it.

You continually go into every Link or Ganon thread and start downplaying everythign about both characters to the point of ridiculousness, ignoring feats based simply on a characters age.

Conversely, if you present a feat by Raziel or Kain, I'm willing to accept it. Like the block throw Raziel did. I even did the math fo find Raziel's strength.

I disagree whne you start to make claims that you can't prove, like the soul reaver working on a touch, or the dark reaver's spell having no cast time, ect.

Whereas, when I tell you Link throws a Goron, you say "the Goron is light, and hollow, and brittle, and Link's a weakling!".

See the problem?

I only claim the MS as weak because I have yet to see it do anything impressive. For example the Blade of Olympus in GoW is not weak because of its tangible power, we can see it wipe out armies and cleave through gods (not a title, an actual spiecies who are superhuman).

It works on touch as Kain says so, but not on someone who has good soul resistance.

How? youve not played the games, how could you have possibly gained any knowledge outside of the one game youve finished? 😉

Most of these are out of context or wrong.

I dont remember saying it has no cast time, I said it has very little time and that it may as well have none.

Thats because Link does not have the exception of strength/durability and LoZ is inconsistent based on what has been shown. You seem to belive that everything in LoZ has to work alongside physics perfectly, LoK does nothing that can be claimed against physics and if it does we have the exceptions made in canon such as what it means to be a vampire and what they can do. Same with Dante and Kratos, demon/god.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes they are, Umah points out vampires gain dark gifts, and Raziel tells us Vampires rapidly evolve, we dont need specifics such as "Kains vampirism makes him strong", thats just a given as Umah also says Vampires are physically superior to humans. These are exceptions that make a base for the feats so that their not just doing illogical feats of physics or bending physics at least not in the fiction.

Now, explain to me why Kain does not require specifics when Link does. Two statements not directly connected are enough to assume that vampires directly evolve rapidly and gain dark gifts. So Kain's strength, speed, and other powers are obviously from him being a vampire.

Two quotes from Zelda games:

"I misjudged the power of this kid. No! It was not the power of him I misjudged, it was the power of the Triforce of Courage!" -- Ganondorf

"You have not yet discovered your true hidden power, the power of the Hero chosen by the goddesses." --Faron the Light Spirit.

For Kain, simply displaying these abilities is enough. Yet for Link, displaying these abilities is not enough, and it has to be stated that it is a direct result of the Triforce of Courage. Care to elaborate?

I only claim the MS as weak because I have yet to see it do anything impressive. For example the Blade of Olympus in GoW is not weak because of its tangible power, we can see it wipe out armies and cleave through gods (not a title, an actual spiecies who are superhuman).

It works on touch as Kain says so, but not on someone who has good soul resistance.

How? youve not played the games, how could you have possibly gained any knowledge outside of the one game youve finished?

Most of these are out of context or wrong.

Thats because Link does not have the exception of strength/durability

and LoZ is inconsistent based on what has been shown.

You seem to belive that everything in LoZ has to work alongside physics perfectly, LoK does nothing that can be claimed against physics and if it does we have the exceptions made in canon such as what it means to be a vampire and what they can do. Same with Dante and Kratos, demon/god.

Everythign in Zelda makes physical sense, or is magic. The entire reason for the iron boots being in TP is to give Link a point of anchorage. Characters in other fiction just plant their feet and magicly can't be moved. If anything, Zelda makes more sense.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Now, explain to me why Kain does not require specifics when Link does. Two statements not directly connected are enough to assume that vampires directly evolve rapidly and gain dark gifts. So Kain's strength, speed, and other powers are obviously from him being a vampire.

Two quotes from Zelda games:

"I misjudged the power of this kid. No! It was not the power of him I misjudged, it was the power of the Triforce of Courage!" -- Ganondorf

"You have not yet discovered your true hidden power, the power of the Hero chosen by the goddesses." --Faron the Light Spirit.

For Kain, simply displaying these abilities is enough. Yet for Link, displaying these abilities is not enough, and it has to be stated that it is a direct result of the Triforce of Courage. Care to elaborate?

because links not innately strengthened by what he is, hes still just a hylian. And hes not got what Kain has, nobody credible actually points out what the triforce of courage actually does for link, wheras vampirism itself unlike the triforce of courage is a physical enhancement in every way, it turns a human into something completly different.

That quote from Ganon supports that from Ganons point of view, Links triforce of courage is powerful. This does not indicate a physical relation to links body however.

The light spirit is not as clear, he seems to be talking to link but does he even know what the power of the Goddesses that link can gain is? he sounds like hes edging link on and may not be speaking of facts.

Both quotes, more so the first and not so much te second imply link has powers, but their not physical adaptions, or enhancements of magic like being a Vampire is. Theres also not other entities doing the same things or using the same powers as Link, there are many vampires in LoK.

Originally posted by Burning thought
because links not innately strengthened by what he is, hes still just a hylian. And hes not got what Kain has, nobody credible actually points out what the triforce of courage actually does for link, wheras vampirism itself unlike the triforce of courage is a physical enhancement in every way, it turns a human into something completly different.

That quote from Ganon supports that from Ganons point of view, Links triforce of courage is powerful. This does not indicate a physical relation to links body however.

The light spirit is not as clear, he seems to be talking to link but does he even know what the power of the Goddesses that link can gain is? he sounds like hes edging link on and may not be speaking of facts.

Both quotes, more so the first and not so much te second imply link has powers, but their not physical adaptions, or enhancements of magic like being a Vampire is. Theres also not other entities doing the same things or using the same powers as Link, there are many vampires in LoK.

So essentially, even though the Triforce of Courage would grant him the ability to perform these incredible acts, it's all toonforce anyway. That, sir, is ridiculously biased and unintelligent. And like I said in my post, why does Link have to have it directly stated when Kain doesn't? That's basically all you did here, restate the bias. And answer those questions about fallibility you ignored the first time. I'll re post them for you if I can find them.

Again, Link needing a direct connection when Kain does not.

The Light Spirits were created by the Goddesses and are likely the next most credible thing about the divine artifacts of Zelda. But they're third if you don't count the bearers of those artifacts as credible sources, below only the Goddesses themselves.

I will repeat again. Link apparently needs a direct connection while Kain does not.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
So essentially, even though the Triforce of Courage would grant him the ability to perform these incredible acts, it's all toonforce anyway. That, sir, is ridiculously biased and unintelligent. And like I said in my post, why does Link have to have it directly stated when Kain doesn't? That's basically all you did here, restate the bias. And answer those questions about fallibility you ignored the first time. I'll re post them for you if I can find them.

Again, Link needing a direct connection when Kain does not.

The Light Spirits were created by the Goddesses and are likely the next most credible thing about the divine artifacts of Zelda. But they're third if you don't count the bearers of those artifacts as credible sources, below only the Goddesses themselves.

I will repeat again. Link apparently needs a direct connection while Kain does not.

Thats not implied, as I said the triforce of courage does not imply it enhances him physically, mentally, magically etc, I am not talking specifics here I am just talking base power, we dont really know what it does and infact, the canon showing of its power was mostly protecting link, that could be the power their talking of. Its more ambiguous than a fairly obvious connection to the physical and supernatural/magical enhancements that comes from being a vampire.

Kain does have a direct connection, Vampirism is not an ambigious artifact that has statements of power. Its a physical enhancement that changes someone completly.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats not implied, as I said the triforce of courage does not imply it enhances him physically, mentally, magically etc, I am not talking specifics here I am just talking base power, we dont really know what it does and infact, the canon showing of its power was mostly protecting link, that could be the power their talking of. Its more ambiguous than a fairly obvious connection to the physical and supernatural/magical enhancements that comes from being a vampire.

Kain does have a direct connection, Vampirism is not an ambigious artifact that has statements of power. Its a physical enhancement that changes someone completly.

Please explain to me how "Vampires receive Dark Gifts" implies that they become enhanced physically. You shouldn't even talk about implications, you still think Midna didn't strike Ganon and make the castle blow up.

Based on what? Other fiction? Sorry, that isn't going to fly.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Please explain to me how "Vampires receive Dark Gifts" implies that they become enhanced physically. You shouldn't even talk about implications, you still think Midna didn't strike Ganon and make the castle blow up.

Based on what? Other fiction? Sorry, that isn't going to fly.

Because dark gifts are essentially super strength, flight, mind, w/e, in Marcus' case it was his mind, Kains first dark gifts were to go invisible and increased strength etc. No i dont, not that their connected.

Based on what a vampire is, a greatly enhanced human.

Gone for one second and the cavalry turns up 😛

And LoZ isnt 'toonforce' 😐

Originally posted by Burning thought

Admit im nt bothered to watch clips ^^; but i found a quote ''i came all this way... and im not strong enough to take his soul!?'' -This is a physical and speed example.

More then a normal one as its make of strong demon energy.

So we know he's consistently above 5 tons, yay... Talking about the scene where he kicks Kain into the wall? Havant seen any others. ''Sharper than a Japanese sword.'' ''(...)is said to cut through anything." Y'know speed adds to the force right?

Was not aware they always knew what moves the other had in all threads... Its in human potential (just barely) to react and act to Kains re-entry. We know Dante's side, Ganon only needs good human RT to counter, and im sure Link and Kratos are above human enough to have good chances of reacting in time.

Originally posted by Burning thought Theres also not other entities doing the same things or using the same powers as Link

Think others have, some guy (mayor of a village) was strong enough to throw Gorons when wearing Iron boots.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because dark gifts are essentially super strength, flight, mind, w/e, in Marcus' case it was his mind, Kains first dark gifts were to go invisible and increased strength etc. No i dont, not that their connected.

Based on what a vampire is, a greatly enhanced human.

If it is not stated that those are what Dark Gifts are, then you have proved my point that Link needs a direct connection when Kain does not. Bias viewpoint is bias.

You are basing this on other fiction.

Think others have, some guy (mayor of a village) was strong enough to throw Gorons when wearing Iron boots.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
He never threw any, they just couldn't push him around when he wore them.

Thought he said he beat them in the sumo ring?

I'm not sure he claims to have ever actually won. He just says he earned their respect. It's possible he won, but he certainly never threw any. The sumo wrestling is just pushing one another out of the ring. We don't that Boh won, just that they could'nt push him because he was too heavy. (He cheated!)