Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Thanks, but Gardner Fox Ultraman wasn't written quite that way, Delta.He and SilverBlue were written as so equal to each other that Superman needed to find UN-conventional means of fighting to take him down, not just brawling violence.
Here, take a look -- I alluded to this scene far earlier in the thread
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Source: Justice League of America #30, Volume 1
Writer: Gardner Fox
Penciller: Mike Sekowsky
Date: September 1964
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Justice_League_of_America_Vol_1_30
And that's all rather irrelevant as I was pointing-out being someone's equal doesn't necessarily prove much. Ultraman had done much better in a couple of previous fights.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
But here's the first fight between Flash and Ultraman:Image 1
Those scans don't counter the fact that in the Silver Age, Superman beat Flash twice in the same issue.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Disagree.IF she's expecting trouble.
Diana has Super Speed, too. Even in the Silver Age.
Have proof she's nearly as fast as Silver Age Superman?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
And she's fought Superman and Supergirl and other pre-Crisis Kryptonians either to a draw or win.
She's also given a reasonable account of herself against people with power specs similar to Kryptonians. (i.e. Martian Manhunter)
That's nice, but neither Supergirl nor J'Onn are Superman, and Superman's beaten her at least twice Pre-CRISIS.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Bet you can, too.
Bet you'll also find she's expecting the challenge and BRACED for it, though.Inconsistent all-over-the-board durability.
Generally low for the times it DID stay consistent.
It was like that in the Golden Age, as I've shown you numerous times.
It didn't improve all that much for the 60s.If at all.
Overcoming Diana's strength was generally something noteworthy.
Her "invulnerability"?
Not so much.And the attack by Superman is essentially a sneak attack.
None of the JLA, or even the criminals they are fighting, expect Superman to suddenly attack the members of the team as he does.
I see you have no problem making excuses and justifications for Wonder Woman losing to Superman in addition to making excuses and justifications for when he's blatantly overpowered her, or otherwise shown to be stronger. And you whined about Superman fans pointing-out the extenuating circumstances as to why he lost to her. And ignored that I was willing to comment on the context when he won.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Clearly I need to go more into depth about Diana's relative Silver Age flightlessness. It has important implications for yesteryear AND today.
All irrelevant as you're doing this to dance around the fact that you've got nothing to get around the fact that his lung capacity is so great, he can bust a solar system with a sneeze.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Any last points before I close this?
I guess I'll do an overview of my case. Basically done this before, but might as well do it again.
Most of Blue's stated reasoning for his opinion is irrelevant distractions that don't count for the Modern Age. Out of the only criteria he gave that matters, Superman is superior in all of them.
Feats Of Strength: Superman beats Wonder Woman here badly in the 2003-2011 time frame Blue insists she's stronger than him in. Considering he's Superman, and Blue's lack of examples, it seems pointless and inane to reference the feats, but I'll give just two. The holding a black hole(despite all of Blue's attempts to discredit it as a "meh" example of strength) and the slowing down a 70 mile long ship traveling at dimensional-travel speeds(and difficulty of barriers to break: light<time<dimension). Either way, it was going far, far faster than FTL, with gravity, making it's mass essentially infinite. This is more impressive than the slowing down Spectre example(Diana's most impressive feat by far), and Superman did it on his own, not with help like Wonder Woman did.
Direct Competitions: Superman has overpowered Wonder Woman or otherwise shown to be stronger than her on at least 5 times in 4 separate occasions during that 2003-2011 time period.
Comparative Performances: Superman has shown to be stronger than her by comparing common opponents against at least against Titus, the Doomsday animates, Supergirl/Dark Kara, the Omacs and Mongul. All from the 2003-2011 time period.
Also, it's been proven that Blue's justification to dismiss everything from 1986 through 2002 as it "doesn't count" is wrong. Meaning Superman has at least 4 more examples of looking superior against common opponents, at least 3 more examples of him either overpowering her or otherwise showing to be stronger, and countless superior feats of strength.
In addition to these, with have statements that Superman is the strongest or most powerful being on Earth supporting these showings. Taken by themselves, they mean little. But coupled with actual showings? They support and corroborate my stance.
Blue has only given one example that he claims is evidence of Wonder Woman's superior strength, and by his own standards and criteria, it's invalid. He has spent much time trying to argue that Supergirl is superior to Superman overall, in an attempt to argue Wonder Woman is stronger because he thinks(yet has not proven) that Wonder Woman is stronger than Supergirl. He gave one whole actual showing that has Supergirl looking superior, based on actual power, to Superman. Not statements and a strawman comparison where Kara won because of the effects her emotions had on Sakki's power. And he has given nothing valid by his own standards for Wonder Woman.
He has stated on several occasions that time is a limited resource when asked for actual examples of Wonder Woman's greater strength. Yet, he spends so much time finding scans to attempt to discredit actual showings of superiority, either for Superman over Wonder Woman or Superman over Supergirl.
We also have multiple instances of, after I've proven his claim wrong to the point even he can't dance around or strawman his way out of it, he completely changes the subject. Clearly to try and distract from his failure to prove his point.
And he had complained about Superman fans always making "excuses and justifications" about when Wonder Woman occasionally beats Superman. Yet, he makes excuses and justifications to try and dismiss whenever Superman is blatantly shown as stronger than Wonder Woman. And when I had gone over and commented on the context in Superman's wins, and pointed-out he's guilty of making excuses over Wonder Woman's showings of inferior strength, he not only ignores it, but later, when Salsa shows some fights from Pre-CRISIS, he goes and makes excuses and justifications for Wonder Woman losing there.
Everything after me stating my examples is to show why I believe Blue doesn't actually have any examples to prove his claims. The fact that he's gone so long and only provided one contradictory(by his own standards) example confirms my belief.
Also, Blue, I'm sure you're going to think you've "won" because the thread is being closed. As opposed to realizing that Pr is closing it because he's found it pointless by now, especially with how you constantly change the subject and bounce around eras, like it somehow supports your claim for 2003-2011. If you truly think you're correct, then challenge either Salsa or myself to the Battlezone where it can be judged. That is, if you can keep it on topic and not use a bunch of irrelevant examples and strawmen.
I am saddened by your decision to do this, P.R.
This thread was not a formal debate thread, was not about what Delta argued when he first came 2 months after me, was supposed to involve true discussion, DID, and has added more than 12,000 views in that short time.
I would like to re-iterate what I wrote about a month ago, and do below the dotted line in this post.
I would also appreciate knowing how to go about getting an actual Wonder Woman forum here at KMC.
With time, I could have demonstrated a lot of what I said below.
If I am denied that, so be it. This was NOT a formal debate thread, was NOT subject to the same rules.
I honestly did not know, with the thread already being 2 YEARS old that there was a time limit on it, nor any reason to think there should be.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You seem to think it invalid to prove a point by pointing out that all the arguments against said point are crap. That's not so. In fact, it's one of the standards used in schools and colleges and universities.
Even has formal names:
1. Proof by contradiction.
2. Proof by contrapositive.
3. Reductio ad absurdum.
No dancing here. No dodging. That's the reality.
I've said EXACTLY what I intended to cover in this thread, and said so repeatedly, and gone about doing precisely that.
Show me where I've violated anything I've said in this thread.
I'd be interested to see if anyone could justly make that claim, for I think I've been fairly consistent; nearly everything you've seen in this thread is something I expressly stated I would do.
I'm genuinely interested to see if there's any sort of contradiction on my part of the type already seen in others on here, including yourself.
I think part of the problem is that people are not used to having real discussion here. If you want to see if your ideas are sound, do you take them to other people who think exactly like YOU do?
I'm thinking, if you want to give honest examination to a thing, you take it to an audience who is AGAINST your position and see what they have to offer. That, too, by the way, is consistent with the way schools, colleges, and universities conduct business. Might be a whole lot different here. I don't know. If so, however, I would point out that this is NOT a typical versus thread on a KMC versus board. It is a discussion thread on a discussion forum. Different rules here and I don't think I'm violating any of them from what I've read, nor do I get the sense of urgency you seem to have over a thread that is now in ... what? Its 25th month? I've only been here for about 2. Less than 1/10th of its time. And I daresay I've brought more accurate information relevant to this thread and what the original poster actually ASKED people in his opening posts that any other person participating, including Salsa and P.R.
Want to make sure the following is sent, if this is the last page.
One:
Delta? Salsa?
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely.
You contributed material that will delight a lot of comic book fans for a long time to come. Certainly I appreciated it.
Want to include the following from another board, a message I think needs to be said:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
suprememan
Posts: 180
Registered: 6/1/07
Re: Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman!
Posted: Feb 11, 2009 6:30 PM
I apologize for getting angry and swearing in that post.
I should know better.
I also said at another time that I want Superman to be the most powerful DC character moving planets and such. That's the identification with a character/ testosterone surge in me that many Superman fans experience. Yet at another time, I complained that its unjust that WW was toned down when she was meant to be SM's equal.
There is no doubt about it. I contradict myself a lot. I get into moods where I have a preference. I go on a tangent and then kick myself for doing it. On one level, I want Superman to flex his manly muscles and be the physically strongest. (identifying with/ putting oneself into the place of the character). On another level, I really do recognize that its a form of sexism. WW is really more than just another character. She really is THE icon among female comic characters just as SM is the most iconic male character. A lot of people that would have no problem with her being as strong or stronger than all the other male characters (MM, CM, etc.), balk at her being as strong or stronger than SM because if she is stronger than him, she's really stronger than any man. So psychologically and socially, beyond her existence as a character in some stories, she does represent concepts and social ideals that transcend even her creator's intent in terms of reasons she should be equal.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... and finally, given there apparently won't be TIME for anything else, I want to include the following, which I sincerely do hope will help some people:
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Lec 22 | MIT 9.00SC Introduction to Psychology, Spring 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lanm...;feature=relmfu
(1 hr 6 min 43 sec)
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I should make clear:
I rarely ever do anything for exactly ONE reason.
The clip above?
Not merely to corroborate a point or points made in this thread.
But also to make people aware, with many of the participants and readers in this thread being students of high school or college age, there are online resources you can use to supplement your education.
FREE ones.
That nearly anyone of even average intelligence can use.
For instance, if you just HAPPEN to have enough curiousity to check out the beginning moments of the clip above, you learn that M.I.T., one of the nation's top-ranked universities, has the bulk of class offerings and lectures available online, in fact, right on YouTube.
Like, nearly the ENTIRETY of it.
Use something like, say, the top-ranked tutoring site Khan Academy along with it
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Khan Academy on Nightly News
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4dk6woz4Do
(2 min 32 sec)
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... and you might find it possible to achieve dreams you'd long completely given up on.
Honestly Blue, if it's anybody's fault, it's your's. Pr mentioned he just doesn't see the point, when he talked about you brought no evidence, that there's tons of evidence against what you're claiming, and that it's been bouncing around different eras. Which, you're the one doing. It's like every time the evidence is getting past what even you can ignore, you go, "MUST, CHANGE, SUBJECT!!!!" and do just that.
And it doesn't matter if this isn't a "traditional debate." It's turned into that. As soon as you came here, you actually went off the topic at hand. Now, if you had just stuck to the claim of Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman from 2003-2011 and actually provided evidence, then I don't think it'd end-up almost certainly getting closed like we see today. The absolute best thing you could've done for your case is stick to that claim, THEN start going back through previous eras. 'Cuz really, if you think it's relevant to the Modern Age, you're in the vast minority. And I'm thinking it's only Wonder Woman fans who think she must be the equal or superior of Superman who thinks past eras and creator's intent counts today.
I see you've brought-up sexism before, giving me the impression that you think this matters in who's stronger, like it's the reason we have the perception Superman is stronger. And what you posted of someone talking about Wonder Woman/Superman strength comparison. Call it sexism, call it favoritism(since he was DC's first and he's one of their most profitable characters), but whatever you call it, even if true, is simply a reason. It does not negate nor dismiss all the showings presented that he is in fact superior to her in strength. Superman has been built-up to the point that he almost makes everybody else unnecessary. He has the feats and the fights to prove it, and statements about him just reinforce this. I mean, Hell, he's matched or beaten powerful teams or matched or beaten villains who matched or beat powerful teams more times than I can count. Can you say that for Wonder Woman? And yes, this is overall power. But it's true, and strength is probably his greatest attribute.
As for KMC having a Wonder Woman board, I honestly don't see the reason for one. Superman's a much more popular character than her, and look how dead this board is. Aside from you, Salsa and I on here, we've only had Abhi and Pr(the board's mod) occasionally pop-in here, and a couple of people talk about the SUPERMAN VS THE ELITE animated movie on another thread. And I don't see a plethora of interest for Diana on the VS thread, so I'd think adding a Wonder Woman board would have almost nobody posting on it.
Well it just got to the point that it became a debate far from what the OP asked originally.
I thank you Blue for being so polite. I may not agree with what You believe but I understand the fuel on your drive.
You are cool in my book and You are welcome to PM me to trade punches or points of view again. I will PM you for when ever I get into a WW debate so You can coach me to defend her vs a DC hater.
I would not like this to be closed, but I'm not the boss here.
I think You should made a WW respect thread for sure. Hell I even could help you out.
Originally posted by Delta1938I see you've brought-up sexism before, giving me the impression that you think this matters in who's stronger, like it's the reason we have the perception Superman is stronger.
As for KMC having a Wonder Woman board, I honestly don't see the reason for one. Superman's a much more popular character than her, and look how dead this board is.
For the record, Delta, I am not Suprememan, the guy I posted the quote from on the DC Message Boards a few posts ago.
I assure you he is QUITE separate from me.
In fact, I believe he is a poster on these very forums.
He made some very keepworthy posts.
Took a LONG time to get them, though.
Talking months here, not the few weeks we've been interacting.
When you take things at length, people often begin to understand that the other side has a valid point of view, too.
They actually start paying attention to what you write, don't merely proceed off of emotion and an assumption of what they THINK you've written but really haven't.
Take a look at what he wrote here, for instance, written on DC Comics Official Message Boards a few years ago:
suprememan
Posts: 180
Registered: 6/1/07
Re: Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman!
Posted: Feb 11, 2009 6:48 PM in response to: guest2
You realize of course that if I become convinced of your evidence I will be accused of changing my mind every other week.
Looking at it from a real world perspective I imagine that with Superman being written doing things like lifting white dwarf stars in his hands and moving planets, the people writing those feats were saying he has no strength equals. Well, the guy who wrote his equality with Hercules was probably saying his strength is equal with another guy that has infinite strength and is the most famous of all mythical strength characters, at least in the Western world. I'd suspect the guy writing that wasn't even thinking about the fact WW had been written as stronger than Hercules.
Likewise, when she was written as stronger than Herc, I don't know what the writer's intent was. I don't know if the Herc/ SM stories had been written yet. Certainly they were written before the 1982 WW/ Herc fight, probably long before and forgotten. So from a writer intent point of view, I don't know that the message was that she was stronger than SM in the SA. We know Marstons's intent.
I can accept that based on concept and actual stories, what we end up with is a good argument that she is stronger in the SA. This is especially true if we accept the argument that infinite strength characters can only be judged in opposition to each other as opposed to an argument based on who actually lifted the most weight (as long as both never failed at anything they attempted).
I am right now leaning towards them being equal in physical strength in the GA ...
In the SA, ironically the age he was believed to have no equals, the actual events of some stories, especially conceptually pivotal ones, have her coming out greater in sheer physical strength.
Originally posted by Delta1938I see you've brought-up sexism before, giving me the impression that you think this matters in who's stronger, like it's the reason we have the perception Superman is stronger.
As for KMC having a Wonder Woman board, I honestly don't see the reason for one. Superman's a much more popular character than her, and look how dead this board is.
I don't see a plethora of interest for Diana on the VS thread ...
Don't know if I'VE directly said anything about sexism.
I do find it interesting you accused me of being a ... "gender traitor" several pages ago?
Obviously I see the interest differently. This thread after roughly 2 years was at less than 5,000 views. Now, only 3 months after I began posting here, it's up to nearly 20,000 views.
I think people have a lot more interest in this than you realize, just don't have the willingness to post.
I begin to see why.
As for the question you'd be surprised if I answered? Of course Superman would not deliberately choose to get hit by Wondy's tiara.
Whether he could actually avoid it in actual battle is an entirely separate affair, though.
Regarding Orion, Diana and sun-upgrading, etcetera?
Superman DOES demonstrate increased strength in a noticeable way.
You mentioned that you rarely see anyone sent great distances by Superman punching, for instance.
Note that in Action586, Orion takes Supe's first punch and is moved perhaps a few feet by it. Superman throws an object at him and hurls him back maybe a dozen more? A few hundred feet?
Superman's last punch before Orion takes off his helmet moves him again, what ... 5 feet?
Note also Orion's action. Hits him with a light attack that looks like strobe lights going off around him. Just to stun him.
Contrast that to MOT13. Where Supes has gotten rid of Earth's nuclear weapons by sun-furnacing and any hero who knows anything about his power would expect him to be stronger, a greater physical threat.
No mere light show this time. An attack that sends Supes to India.
And when Superman punches Orion here? No Orion going back a few feet. No, Orion is knocked clear into China.
Action 586, Orion willingly removed his helmet himself.
No need in MOT13. Supes knocks it clean OFF Orion's head.
Contrast now to Wonder Woman #219.
Not Superman having spent time near the sun.
Superman AT the sun.
Orion got punched a few hundred miles? Perhaps a few thousand?
Do you have ANY idea of how far Earth is from the SUN in terms of miles??
It's there when you look for it.
In a discussion where there is no real concern with time, as was the case on DCMB, as seems to have been with this thread for 2 years prior to now, you can cover such things at leisure.
You can point these things out and people begin talking things more openly and honestly, truly seeing where the other is coming from, eventually reaching common understanding.
I'd sincerely like to know where people have THOSE types of discussions at KMC.
Examine Supergirl #9 sometime. Supergirl holds a very angry Karen Starr immobile. Karen eventually quits her struggles saying she's getting or gotten a cramp, and comments aloud that Kara is strong.
Kara replies that she is strong but that Karen is not 100% after her ordeal in Kandor the previous issue.
Reasonable Conclusion: Kara is stronger than Karen at that moment.
Evidence is that she's held fast despite struggling, comments on her distress, compliments Kara on her physical strength, and is told in return that there is that PLUS an additional REASON for this to be.
Compare to Supergirl #1, where weird things are happening between Kara and Karen physically. Supergirl tries a very similar looking hold. Here, though, Karen BREAKS the hold, and tosses Kara away, with Kara thinking to herself that she isn't used to fighting someone STRONGER than her, but that Karen shouldn't BE this strong, something seems off.
Reasonable Conclusion: Something weird IS going on, but, at any rate, Karen at that moment IS, indeed, stronger than Kara.
Evidence is that Kara secures a hold, but not only has it broken and gets tossed away, but thinks to herself that Karen is stronger AND that something weird is going on AND we are shown 2 or 3 things before and after that are indeed weird AND Mr. Terrific (not making this up, that's the character's name) explains a possible reason for the weirdness.
Compare to Wonder Woman v3 #...39, I believe.
Same issue Wonder Woman thinks or says to herself that Karen is at least as strong as her. Spends some time getting knocked around, looking worried, angry, frustrated, caught off-guard, etcetera.
But eventually Wondy gets resolved.
The calm look that you revere so much comes on her face and there is armplay until she secures a hold on Karen.
Karen struggles to absolutely no avail. She's shaking, Wondy is a statue maintaining that grip.
Reasonable Conclusion: Diana is at least slightly stronger than Karen, despite her thoughts or self-doubts.
Else the hold position should show BOTH of them shaking with exertion, if they were equal, or Karen breaking the hold, as she does with Kara in Supergirl #1, if Karen were stronger.
Corroborated by Superman/Batman #9, where Kara, scared and struggling with both hands, is held fast by Diana. With one arm.
Which could also be used for evidence that Diana is stronger not only than Karen, but Kara herself.
Note one crucial thing, though, and that is that we are still ultimately talking about relatively small differences in strength among characters.
Not something like Superboy Prime versus Starfire.
It's a LOT harder to show minor differences than big ones; and a multitude of reasons to strip away from what we see.
In some cases it's like the old woman versus young woman illusion.
Note that you can get people arguing violently over such things even though both sides know there should be at least SOME merit to what the other side says they see, and, in that case, could go either way.
Other thoughts in mind:
6 blind men and elephant.
All convinced they are right.
All right to some extent.
All wrong to some extent.
Would benefit greatly from being able to share what they are experiencing with each other, but have to be willing to listen and take the time to do that ...
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"bouncing around eras charge" is a catch-22
It's what I SAID I would do almost from the beginning.
And it's really not bouncing around. Scan through the thread from the beginning and you will find it going in chronological order, slowly but surely, 1940s and William Marston, 1950s and Kanigher, JLA and Gardner Fox, 1960s ...
The older comics are useful for making analogies and illustrations.
Simpler with less complex stories, but often more extreme situations.
So you can often illustrate principles and concepts a lot easier and then demonstrate how they are at work in more contemporary stories.
It's also the only real way to address an argument that may or may not have been said here, but ALWAYS comes up on other board discussions of Superman and Wonder Woman and whether or not it is "legitimate" to have her ranked with him. Does Wonder Woman have a HISTORY to justify people's regard?
Again, our friend Suprememan provides 3rd party illustration:
suprememan
Posts: 21
Registered: 6/1/07
Re: How MUCH stronger than Superman is Diana?
Posted: Sep 14, 2010 5:18 PM in response to: guest2
Conceptually or not though, Superman has a history of doing things like moving planets. It's fine to add that to her abilities but it is something new although it is justifiable under her concept.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Supreme was then shown some instances of Wonder Woman moving the heavy stuff then, though, much as you can see in this thread and have probably seen elsewhere by now, and note the response ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
suprememan
Posts: 21
Registered: 6/1/07
Re: How MUCH stronger than Superman is Diana?
Posted: Sep 16, 2010 7:51 PM in response to: guest2
Well, color me amazed. Obviously Superman doing stuff like that (and I'm sure some other characters did such things too though not necessarily by strength) is simply more remembered and hyped.
Strangely enough, I am quite happy to lose this argument. I have felt that Wonder Woman *should be* portrayed as on Superman's level though I can see arguments both ways on that one and have ocasionally gone the other way but I never really thought she had been portrayed as being on his strength level which was the primary issue for me. But clearly there were events where she was.
So, this stuff DOES affect how people think about the characters.
And it DOES matter to people.
The very fact that this thread got more than 10,000 views added to it since I started posting here should tell you that, and I actually took one or two screen captures of the KMC viewcounts FOR this thread and posted THAT earlier IN this very thread if you want to prove that to yourself.
Originally posted by biensalsaI thank you Blue for being so polite. I may not agree with what You believe but I understand the fuel on your drive.
You are cool in my book and You are welcome to PM me to trade punches or points of view again. I will PM you for when ever I get into a WW debate so You can coach me to defend her vs a DC hater.
I would not like this to be closed, but I'm not the boss here.
I think You should made a WW respect thread for sure. Hell I even could help you out.
Thank you in turn, Salsa.
I will definitely keep you in mind!
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
For the record, Delta, I am not Suprememan, the guy I posted the quote from on the DC Message Boards a few posts ago.
I assure you he is QUITE separate from me.
I never even had the slightest confusion about you being him. I was merely pointing-out how you've sure seemed to argue that sexism somehow means she's stronger than him(for example, maybe you think she's underplayed because of the sexism, that it makes her stuff more impressive) and you posting his quote reinforces this perception.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In fact, I believe he is a poster on these very forums.
If he is, under the same username or a different one?
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
He made some very keepworthy posts.
Took a LONG time to get them, though.
Talking months here, not the few weeks we've been interacting.
When you take things at length, people often begin to understand that the other side has a valid point of view, too.
They actually start paying attention to what you write, don't merely proceed off of emotion and an assumption of what they THINK you've written but really haven't.
Oh I know you have a point. In fact, you have many points. The problem is, you're under the assumption that you have a VALID point. Just about every point you've made is either incorrect or a strawman(assuming you're not simply oblivious to the fact that those points are irrelevant).
About the only things you included in your reasoning for coming to the incorrect conclusion that Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman was the power source thing, origin of powers and how powers work. Which I proved none really change much.
Superman's simply done things that exceed the comparatively little amount of solar energy he has in his body. I point to you the end of OUR WORLDS AT WAR where he was supercharged from the Sun and still overpowered Warworld. Superman didn't even absorb close to enough energy to threaten the star's existence, but he still overcame a power source of several GALAXIES. A DWARF Galaxy, not even a regular galaxy, has as FEW as about 10 million stars. And I'd assume that Imperiex Prime didn't just take energy from the stars, but all the other mass in the galaxies. Which doesn't add much more than what the stars would already add, but I'd think a single Dwarf Galaxy's non-star mass alone would be greater output than what Superman absorbed. So, clearly power source means little to nothing.
Origin of powers? Captain Marvel has a similar origin to Wonder Woman, and because he has the Power Of Zeus further increasing the Strength Of Hercules, he's stronger than her. And in THE POWER OF SHAZAM! he had further increased his strength by adding the strength of Atlas as well. And what did he accomplish? Only stalemating Superman in an arm-wrestling match before Superman was trained by Mongul II to overcome the mental blocks suppressing his strength and overall power. So Superman became even stronger than this.
How powers work? I don't see anything that Wonder Woman's actually change. Nor have you even provided evidence that she's had power-ups or has even gotten stronger since JLA #75(which you've claimed she has in the past). But how Superman's power work? It's been proven and established his powers are dynamic, despite this being fairly obscure. Hell, I don't even see that many Superman supporters knowing this, let alone those who aren't well versed in him. Superman's officially been shown his mind subconsciously regulates his powers, and he's become powerless before simply because he had amnesia. I believe ONE YEAR LATER also showed he was powerless for so long because of a subconscious desire to be normal. But we've seen that his powers can grow from what you're aware of. During his training with Mongul, he said he almost lost control and felt a surge of power. During OUR WORLDS AT WAR, he goes from having to multi-task with his powers to take-down Imperiex Probes to being able to one-shot them with punches(and no, he wasn't Sun-Amped in that scan you thought he was; considering that the effect ends after he stops flying, it's clear it was just the artist's way of showing he was flying fast). And an issue leading-up to INFINITE CRISIS states stress levels effect his processing of solar energy. But even when we don't have him more powerful than normal from the dynamic nature of his powers, he's still stronger than Wonder Woman, even when holding back.
Take a look at what he wrote here, for instance, written on DC Comics Official Message Boards a few years ago:
suprememan
Posts: 180
Registered: 6/1/07
Re: Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman!
Posted: Feb 11, 2009 6:48 PM in response to: guest2
You realize of course that if I become convinced of your evidence I will be accused of changing my mind every other week.
Looking at it from a real world perspective I imagine that with Superman being written doing things like lifting white dwarf stars in his hands and moving planets, the people writing those feats were saying he has no strength equals. Well, the guy who wrote his equality with Hercules was probably saying his strength is equal with another guy that has infinite strength and is the most famous of all mythical strength characters, at least in the Western world. I'd suspect the guy writing that wasn't even thinking about the fact WW had been written as stronger than Hercules.
Likewise, when she was written as stronger than Herc, I don't know what the writer's intent was. I don't know if the Herc/ SM stories had been written yet. Certainly they were written before the 1982 WW/ Herc fight, probably long before and forgotten. So from a writer intent point of view, I don't know that the message was that she was stronger than SM in the SA. We know Marstons's intent.
I can accept that based on concept and actual stories, what we end up with is a good argument that she is stronger in the SA. This is especially true if we accept the argument that infinite strength characters can only be judged in opposition to each other as opposed to an argument based on who actually lifted the most weight (as long as both never failed at anything they attempted).
I am right now leaning towards them being equal in physical strength in the GA ...
In the SA, ironically the age he was believed to have no equals, the actual events of some stories, especially conceptually pivotal ones, have her coming out greater in sheer physical strength.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I didn't read what you guys were going at, but to be blunt, that guy doesn't seem very bright if he was brainwashed by your propaganda of strawmen. And if he thinks that they were equal in the Golden Age, either he's been brainwashed by your propaganda or he's simply ignorant of Superman during that era. Making a star>>moving the Sun. I know you tried to dismiss it with, "I don't see how moving a house is more impressive than making one" but either you're just throwing-out yet another strawman or you're incapable of comprehending it. Here's a better analogy. Which is more impressive? Moving a doghouse made of titanium, or molding a mass of titanium into a doghouse with your bare hands? I'll give you a hint, it's not the moving it that's more impressive.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Don't know if I'VE directly said anything about sexism.
I do find it interesting you accused me of being a ... "gender traitor" several pages ago?
Actually I was talking about for Supergirl to be more powerful than Superman without extenuating circumstances you'd have to either be a delusional femnazi or a gender traitor, considering that Kara's a teenage girl and Clark is a larger, well-built man in his prime. And the size and build does have something to do with power. They're being enhanced by the solar energy, it's not that they suddenly have super strength just 'cuz. You gave one whole showing of Supergirl ever being superior to Superman in anyway(which one could debate because of how Loeb ended his story, and he was providing stuff to make it questionable of who was more powerful) and have given nothing else but statements. On the other hand, there's at least 5 examples showing Superman is the superior of the two.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Obviously I see the interest differently. This thread after roughly 2 years was at less than 5,000 views. Now, only 3 months after I began posting here, it's up to nearly 20,000 views.
I think people have a lot more interest in this than you realize, just don't have the willingness to post.
I begin to see why.As for the question you'd be surprised if I answered? Of course Superman would not deliberately choose to get hit by Wondy's tiara.
Whether he could actually avoid it in actual battle is an entirely separate affair, though.
Superman's been able to out-fly the Omega Beams multiple times. He most certainly can avoid Diana's tiara in an actual fight, unless you can provide proof that she throws it faster than light. Not to mention how she TELEGRAPHED IT by taking it off to throw it. Since Superman thought he was Doomsday, of course he didn't notice that.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Regarding Orion, Diana and sun-upgrading, etcetera?
Now I'm about to show you where your ignorance of Superman is killing your ability to argue for Wonder Woman being stronger. Everything I'm about to show you will disprove all the points you think you have and arguments you've made. And what's particularly damning is the fact that most of what I'm about to say has already been revealed to you. You either forgot or are ignoring it. Now, while I admit I don't know as much about Wonder Woman as you do, I get the impression I know much more about her than you know about Superman. And I've been more likely to ask about things like power-ups than you.
Now, to get to what you've said.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Superman DOES demonstrate increased strength in a noticeable way.
Even if you're correct(which I'm about to prove you're not), this is a strawman. You made the claim that the JLA found him to be stronger than normal. Which would mean they said he is. There's nothing in SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF TOMORROW #13 about anybody saying he's stronger than normal. They do mention that the Superman ROBOTS are stronger than before, but nothing about Superman himself.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You mentioned that you rarely see anyone sent great distances by Superman punching, for instance.
Note that in Action586, Orion takes Supe's first punch and is moved perhaps a few feet by it. Superman throws an object at him and hurls him back maybe a dozen more? A few hundred feet?
Superman's last punch before Orion takes off his helmet moves him again, what ... 5 feet?Note also Orion's action. Hits him with a light attack that looks like strobe lights going off around him. Just to stun him.
Contrast that to MOT13. Where Supes has gotten rid of Earth's nuclear weapons by sun-furnacing and any hero who knows anything about his power would expect him to be stronger, a greater physical threat.
No mere light show this time.
Wrong, it's not a light show.
"UNGH! Energy bubbles.....[B]"bursting...pummeling me... ...making it...hard to...THINK STRAIGHT..."
No, it's not strobe lights effecting him.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[B]An attack that sends Supes to India.
You leave-out that Orion having the element of surprise is a factor here.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[B]And when Superman punches Orion here? No Orion going back a few feet. No, Orion is knocked clear into China.Action 586, Orion willingly removed his helmet himself.
No need in MOT13. Supes knocks it clean OFF Orion's head.
Actually, the reason Orion took his helmet off is to show Superman his true face, hoping the shock would get rid of Superman's amnesia, and thus Darkseid's control over him(since an amnesic Superman was convinced that he was Darkseid's son).
But here's the big problem. You're missing what I've pointed-out before. Superman doesn't show any improved performance against Orion that could not be explained away by SUPERMAN'S PREVIOUS PERMANENT POWER-UP. Remember this?
Yeah, that not only got Superman back to normal(he was almost powerless previously, couldn't fly, no super speed, reduced senses, said he was about 1/10th as strong as normal) but it gave him an official power-up. Which I've shown you this--
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Villains/Lobo/MOS%2030/
--before to show you how Superman became more powerful since his original fight with Orion. It's full of him noticing he can do things he couldn't before, how he must be stronger than normal, ect ect. Even Lobo states that he got hit harder than before. And this has been told to you MANY times. Both here, and back on the DC boards. What's your problem? Forgetful? Can't wrap your head around Superman was permanently more powerful in MOT #13 compared to his previous fight with Orion? Or you just ignore this because at the least it hurts, if not outright disproves, your claim that he was stronger than normal? I admit he might've been a little stronger than normal, but it was not noticeable. Nobody said anything about him being stronger or more durable or anything than normal, and he'd already shown to be several times stronger than Wonder Woman in the prior comic(an issue of ACTION COMICS I believe) of the storyline.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[B]Contrast now to Wonder Woman #219.
Not Superman having spent time near the sun.
Superman AT the sun.Orion got punched a few hundred miles? Perhaps a few thousand?
Do you have ANY idea of how far Earth is from the SUN in terms of miles??
This is another area where your ignorance of Superman hurts your case. First-off, Superman had ANOTHER permanent power-up after SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF TOMORROW #13. The Mongul II training sessions. As I pointed-out, he became more powerful than before after Mongul worked with him to get past his mental blocks suppressing his power. And we see during OUR WORLDS AT WAR he still was suppressing his power as he goes from having to use his powers in combo to beat Imperiex Probes to literally being able to destroy them with either a punch or a single burst of Heat Vision, and he's talking about how now he's truly unleash.
(TO BE CONTINUED)
And what you're also unaware of, is that Superman actually has SUPERIOR feats than punching Wonder Woman from the Sun back to Earth both before and after WONDER WOMAN #219.
Here in SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF STEEL #131, Superman throws a huge mass of contaminated earth and water particles to the Sun. This is AFTER he was weakened by being exposed to Kryptonite, fighting dozens of villains, then fighting Bizarro, Mongul and Silver Banshee, then literally being surrounded by Kryptonite and then hit by a nuke(well not a nuclear bomb or a missile with a nuclear warhead, but it was still a nuclear explosion).
By the time he beat Mongul he was starting to regain his strength, but Silver Banshee's attack seemed to undo all his recovery. Here's the full fight scene from ADVENTURES OF SUEPRMAN #609--
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Teams/City%20Of%20Villains/
--and SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF STEEL #131--
--for full context. So, you try to argue that Superman HAD to have been boosted to knock Wonder Woman that far, but Superman previously threw a much much larger mass than Wonder Woman roughly the same distance, while weakened. And then there's this.
He throws an entire dwarf solar system far enough away from Earth that it's not a threat. We're not sure exactly how far away it is, but I'm thinking considering it's growing, it'd have to be at least the distance between Earth and the Sun. Probably had to throw it OUT of the Solar System for it to not f*ck everything up. And while we don't know exactly how much this weighs, if we take into account that these are just planets and a star scaled-down, we still have a mass much heavier than Wonder Woman, and Superman threw it likely much further than the distance between Earth and the Sun.
And two important things to note: Superman's narrative boxes state that the radiation from it's Sun is NOT powering him up(so you can't try and dismiss this feat), and the system is growing back to it's normal size, so it's actually making itself larger and heavier, so yes, Superman probably did throw it much further than the Sun so it didn't cause chaos through-out our Solar System.
Also about the distance between Antarctica and India, according to a quick Google search, a direct distance is over 7,000 miles, and between India and China it's over 1,800 miles. Although we don't have the EXACT distance, but also your point is irrelevant as you tried to use the Orion being punched distance to claim Superman was vastly powered-up by the Sun when he knocked Wonder Woman back to Earth when he has more impressive feats both before and after, one of them while weakened, the other him most certainly not being powered-up by the Sun.
Now, I have no problem admitting that if the power-ups and feats I pointed-out didn't exist, or I was ignorant of them, you'd have a very convincing argument. Problem is, they do exist, I do know about them, and it means your argument is invalid.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's there when you look for it.
In a discussion where there is no real concern with time, as was the case on DCMB, as seems to have been with this thread for 2 years prior to now, you can cover such things at leisure.
You can point these things out and people begin talking things more openly and honestly, truly seeing where the other is coming from, eventually reaching common understanding.I'd sincerely like to know where people have THOSE types of discussions at KMC.
If you're trying to say what I think you are, you're wrong. The threat of this thread being closed isn't by time constraints or anything. It's by you making it pointless. You're the only one arguing Wonder Woman is stronger, and all you've given is a bunch of strawmen, while you simultaneously nitpick, strawman and outright ignore the minimum mountain RANGE of evidence proving your claim wrong.
Oh, and the ONE bit of direct hard evidence that you presented, the Amazo example? It's an oxymoron of an argument. If we're to assume that Amazo can mimic/copy the powers of others perfectly, and that this was a feat of pure strength, that would mean she's close to as strong as Amazo to have pulled-off what she did despite her disadvantageous position. Which would mean she's nearly as strong as herself+Superman+others COMBINED. See how contradictory it is?
Her overcoming Amazo's strength either means what Salsa pointed-out(that it very well couldn't have perfectly copied both Superman and Wonder Woman's strength), or it shows she's strong, but nothing in regards to proving she's stronger than Superman. If it really is stronger than her and him combined, then all it really means is she's strong and was able to momentarily overcome it's strength through a combination of her strength, better technique and sheer determination and willpower, two things Amazo likely lacks.
Now, this argument actually could be used as corroborative evidence to support other examples that show her as stronger than him. But considering that Superman's straight-up overpowered her or otherwise shown to be stronger(typically MUCH stronger) at least five different times in 4 different issues(yes, from the 2003-2011 time period you specified, but there's more since I proved that everything Post-CRISIS before 2003 counts) and you have not provided a single example, we have to take the Amazo overcoming as either what Salsa pointed-out or I did, and it just shows she's pretty darn strong, not that she's stronger than Superman.
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Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Examine Supergirl #9 sometime. Supergirl holds a very angry Karen Starr immobile. Karen eventually quits her struggles saying she's getting or gotten a cramp, and comments aloud that Kara is strong.
Kara replies that she is strong but that Karen is not 100% after her ordeal in Kandor the previous issue.
Reasonable Conclusion: Kara is stronger than Karen at that moment.
Evidence is that she's held fast despite struggling, comments on her distress, compliments Kara on her physical strength, and is told in return that there is that PLUS an additional REASON for this to be.Compare to Supergirl #1, where weird things are happening between Kara and Karen physically. Supergirl tries a very similar looking hold. Here, though, Karen BREAKS the hold, and tosses Kara away, with Kara thinking to herself that she isn't used to fighting someone STRONGER than her, but that Karen shouldn't BE this strong, something seems off.
Reasonable Conclusion: Something weird IS going on, but, at any rate, Karen at that moment IS, indeed, stronger than Kara.
Evidence is that Kara secures a hold, but not only has it broken and gets tossed away, but thinks to herself that Karen is stronger AND that something weird is going on AND we are shown 2 or 3 things before and after that are indeed weird AND Mr. Terrific (not making this up, that's the character's name) explains a possible reason for the weirdness.Compare to Wonder Woman v3 #...39, I believe.
Same issue Wonder Woman thinks or says to herself that Karen is at least as strong as her. Spends some time getting knocked around, looking worried, angry, frustrated, caught off-guard, etcetera.
But eventually Wondy gets resolved.
The calm look that you revere so much comes on her face and there is armplay until she secures a hold on Karen.
Karen struggles to absolutely no avail. She's shaking, Wondy is a statue maintaining that grip.
Reasonable Conclusion: Diana is at least slightly stronger than Karen, despite her thoughts or self-doubts.
Else the hold position should show BOTH of them shaking with exertion, if they were equal, or Karen breaking the hold, as she does with Kara in Supergirl #1, if Karen were stronger.
First-off, no, I know you're not kidding. I know who Mr. Terrific is. Both versions, actually.
Secondly, I see what you're doing. You're nitpicking to try and dismiss the example. I've seen the fight between Wonder Woman and Power Girl, and all I saw was Diana overcame because of her superior skill. I saw nothing to actually indicate that she's stronger than Power Girl. Throw in the fact that your attempt to use the whole "calm" example is a strawman on my usage of it. You're talking about her using technique to break a hold. I was referring to him doing direct showings of superior strength like catching her punch or stopping her charge by grabbing her wrist. Those are direct showings of superior strength, not strength coupled with technique(like her fight with Power Girl), so him being calm just shows he's even stronger than her than just him accomplishing these things along if he struggled to do them, but still succeeded, shows.
But even if she were stronger than Power Girl, this is a strawman. The fact is, Superman showed to be stronger than Power Girl, Martian Manhunter, and more COMBINED when they all tried to restrain him and he threw them off him. Unless you think Wonder Woman is stronger than Power Girl, Martian Manhunter, Kilowog, Ultra(or whatever his name was), Hawkgirl and a few Blackrock enhanced humans.
Do you really think Wonder Woman could've accomplished the same? Well, I'm sure you'd say "yes." If you think she's stronger than Superman, clearly you'd believe that she could accomplish anything in regards to relative strength that he can, and accomplish superior examples. But you'd have to prove it. Does she have any similar examples of showing to be stronger than multiple opponents with Top-Tier strength combined? Remember, you think that Martian Manhunter is also stronger than Superman, and you admit that Wonder Woman isn't that much stronger than Superman, so you must think that Martian Manhunter is equally or virtually equal to Wonder Woman in strength. Yet Superman showed to be stronger than him AND Power Girl AND OTHERS combined. And this isn't Superman's only example. Also, this isn't the only time Superman's shown to be stronger than Martian Manhunter, so you can't attempt to dismiss it as a fluke. The burden of proof that Wonder Woman could accomplish the same is on you, not just saying that she can because he did, and based on the assumption that she's stronger than him. The very fact that he's overpowered her or otherwise shown to be stronger than her on multiple occasions, yes, even from 2003-2011, pretty much proves your claim wrong.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Corroborated by Superman/Batman #9, where Kara, scared and struggling with both hands, is held fast by Diana. With one arm.
Which could also be used for evidence that Diana is stronger not only than Karen, but Kara herself.
Wrong. This does not corroborate Wonder Woman being stronger than Supergirl. Kara's powers were still delevoping.
Second most left-panel at the bottom.
KARA: "Why do you wear EYEGLASSES if you can see better than anyone on the planet?" CLARK: "When those of us who are...HEROES want to have lives WITHOUT the cape, it's important to keep our identities A SECRET." KARA: "And that's why BATMAN doesn't take off his lead-lined cowl?" CLARK: "You noticed the lead, hmm? I didn't know your x-ray vision had kicked in." KARA: "You didn't ask."
And to top it off, Wonder Woman used a headlock, a technique--
--so her restraining Kara was NOT an example of pure strength. Yes, Kara's trying to break the grip with both hands and Wonder Woman's only using one arm, but again this includes technique, not pure strength. All you've proven is Wonder Woman might be stronger than Kara was at this point. In fact, in the next issue there's a statement that implies Kara is stronger. After she's been on Paradise Island for what Superman states to be weeks, Superman says her training is pointless. That, "--she's got enough power to take on the entire island!"
Second bottom panel, second two parts of Superman's multi-word bubble.
As you can see from Wonder Woman's response, she does not dispute Kara's power. And yes, I doubt Superman was talking pure strength. But this does imply Kara>Wonder Woman in strength and the fact is your example of Diana restraining Kara as a showing of superior strength is invalid both because it wasn't pure strength, and Kara's powers were still developing.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Note one crucial thing, though, and that is that we are still ultimately talking about relatively small differences in strength among characters.
Not something like Superboy Prime versus Starfire.
It's a LOT harder to show minor differences than big ones; and a multitude of reasons to strip away from what we see.
Except there's no small difference in strength between Superman and Wonder Woman. I've proven he's MUCH stronger than her. Even from the 2003-2011 time period you claim she's stronger, you have provided no examples, compared to the 5 separate times in 4 separate issues that have been presented that we KNOW of, 3 of those times shown MUCH stronger. Plus, more than once, he's been shown stronger than multiple opponents with Top-Tier strength combined, some of those opponents stronger than Wonder Woman, many of them nearly as strong. Does Diana have any showings like these? Has she ever done anything where she's shown to be stronger than Superman? Or stronger than someone equal to Superman plus others near his strength combined? The closest example you've ever given was Amazo, which I pointed-out completely contradicts itself.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
In some cases it's like the old woman versus young woman illusion.
Note that you can get people arguing violently over such things even though both sides know there should be at least SOME merit to what the other side says they see, and, in that case, could go either way.
You're saying that my side should see your side has merit? um Last I checked, you whined about how every time Wonder Woman's wins over Superman come-up, the Superman side makes a deal over the context, but never about the context when Superman wins. Well, considering how poorly she did in those fights and how she won, the context is extremely important. Yet, you do the same over Superman's wins, and then try to nitpick and strawman to discredit and dismiss whenever Superman shows to be stronger than her. Also, I went through and examined the context of Superman's wins, and well, any handicaps Diana has are overplayed by you, non-existent, or balanced-out to varying degrees by Superman being handicapped as well. The difference between you and I, is that I've backed the examples I've given. You're just using various strawman reasoning and making inaccurate ABC logic arguments that are not actual showings from the comics, and using a variety of reasons to say the showings you've been given "don't count."
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