Superman Vs Wonderwoman

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
She was willing to risk them because she was calculating to do just enough to slow Superman down so that HE'D be able to rescue them, but without enough time left over for him or anyone else to interfere with her and the battle against the sure-death of DragonFlame.

If Diana does too much damage to Supes or even forces him too battle her too long, her friends die, because he's not well enough to save them in time. But her friends face CERTAIN death if she takes no action against them and lets them fight together against the dragon.

I know, I've read the book. She's assuming her calculations would be right. She lost because she's inferior. Deal with it. If she could've actually beaten him, she would've done it.

Originally posted by Delta1938
I know, I've read the book. She's assuming her calculations would be right. She lost because she's inferior. Deal with it. If she could've actually beaten him, she would've done it.

If we're counting "character X reached his or her goal despite character Y actively fighting against them" as a win, as you did with "For Tomorrow" on page48, she DID beat him,
he was forced to do exactly as she planned, even as the saving of innocents in "For Tomorrow" demanded Diana do as Superman wished, allowing him to Vanish.

Originally posted by Delta1938

you didn't seem to have a problem with small weight when you brought-up an Omac example to argue Wonder Woman's strength, even though she was basically just throwing the weight of a normal person.

I think one problem we're having is that you're assuming that,
whenever I post something, I am somehow posting things for the reason that YOU would post something if YOU were in my place, arguing for my side.

That's simply not the case.

Once IN A WHILE what you and I think coincides, but it's really not all that often.

The problem is you can't seem to understand that people could ever hold an opinion that differs from yours, let alone THINK in a way that differs from how you think.

And, of course, you rush things.

Regardless, it's time for you to answer some things according to your own supposed standards.

I "brought-up an Omac example to argue Wonder Woman's strength, even though she was basically just throwing the weight of a normal person"?

What did YOU do here with Superman and Wonder Woman?

Originally posted by Delta1938

You know who else were claimed to be more powerful than Superman? Daxamites. I always see people argue Lar Gand is stronger/more powerful than Superman, including Pre-ZERO HOUR, simply because he's a Daxamite, that they're automatically more powerful than Kryptonians. Doesn't look like it here.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Lar%20Gand/MOS%2010/

During PANIC IN THE SKIES Superman had to face Lar and a bunch of others when Brainiac took them over. And the best Lar could manage was stalemating him. And if you try to argue that they were handicapped from being mind controlled, One: The way these were it was unclear whether they were handicapped or not, and Two: This would be balanced-out by their superior numbers combined with Superman holding back more than normal because he doesn't want to hurt them. What else we got?

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Lar%20Gand/AOS%20ANNUAL%202/

Here, Lar does get the upper-hand before it's interrupted, but right as that happens, Lobo jumps-in, and while Superman's still busy fighting Lobo, Lar is recovering, then jumps in himself, and, well, they both get KTFO. But what else do we have? The DARKNESS WITHIN fight. I should first mention, even this storyline states that Lar is more powerful than Superman, by Eclipso.

But what actually happens when Eclipso-possessed Lar fights Superman?

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Lar%20Gand/ECLIPSO-DARKNESS%20WITHIN%202/

It doesn't end well for Lar, even though Superman's handicapped from having the air knocked out of him and is actually, by his own words, seconds from blacking out. He still not only knocks-out Lar, but hurts him so badly Superman says he needs medical attention. Also, while it's not Lar, here's another fight Superman's had, while he's actually worn-down from fighting a "plasma creature," all night.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Miscellaneous/Cil%20Gand/

Superman himself also said earlier in the comic that this guy was more powerful than him(or at least stronger) because he was a Daxamite. Yet, despite being worn-down and the Daxamite's fresh(as he was recovering from lead exposure earlier) Superman still shows to be stronger and beats him down. So, Daxamites are constantly said to be more powerful than Superman, but we have 2 instances of Superman being physically handicapped while facing one, and two examples of them having help, but Superman still wins 3 of those times and stalemates the first(which Lar had tons of others helping him). I've only seen one example of a Daxamite actually looking more powerful than Superman, and he looked more powerful than Superman PLUS a few Legion Of Super-Heroes members, so that one was really damn powerful. So, no, character statements alone prove nothing. They only support examples.

This statement of yours HERE, I can certainly corroborate:

I always see people argue Lar Gand is stronger/more powerful than Superman, including Pre-ZERO HOUR, simply because he's a Daxamite, that they're automatically more powerful than Kryptonians.

You brought up good ol' SilverBlue, and I'm sitting with this thing on my laptop, practically burning a hole in it, so ...

Luthor as MacGeyver. Image 1 of 3.

TungstenTimeTube.

Luthor as MacGeyver.

Image 2 of 3.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If we're counting "character X reached his or her goal despite character Y actively fighting against them" as a win, as you did with "For Tomorrow" on page48, she DID beat him,
he was forced to do exactly as she planned, even as the saving of innocents in "For Tomorrow" demanded Diana do as Superman wished, allowing him to Vanish.

That would be a valid argument, if Diana didn't say, "I knew I couldn't beat you." Fail One.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I think one problem we're having is that you're assuming that,
whenever I post something, I am somehow posting things for the reason that YOU would post something if YOU were in my place, arguing for my side.

That's simply not the case.

Once IN A WHILE what you and I think coincides, but it's really not all that often.

The problem is you can't seem to understand that people could ever hold an opinion that differs from yours, let alone THINK in a way that differs from how you think.

And, of course, you rush things.

Blah blah blah blah blah, you were bringing-up the Omac and saying she out-performed him as an argument that she's stronger. Unless you're backtracking, I don't see how I could mistake it.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Regardless, it's time for you to answer some things according to your own supposed standards.

I "brought-up an Omac example to argue Wonder Woman's strength, even though she was basically just throwing the weight of a normal person"?

What did YOU do here with Superman and Wonder Woman?

Fail Two. I already explained it, unless you didn't understand me or just missed it. This is a completely different scenario. She's trying to restrain him, he tosses her like a ragdoll. On the other hand, what she did was grab a hold of the Omac, held it in the air THEN threw it. Huge, huge difference. Fail Three. Oh and this is from the previous page.

Originally posted by Delta1938
And this is corroborated by the previous issue in the storyline that Superman's MUCH stronger than Wonder Woman. She tried to use the lasso to restrain his arm, he tossed her like a ragdoll. And it wasn't like the example you gave for her fighting an Omac, that she grabbed it's body and threw it. No, she was actually trying to restrain him, and got tossed casually for her troubles.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This statement of yours HERE, I can certainly corroborate:

I always see people argue Lar Gand is stronger/more powerful than Superman, including Pre-ZERO HOUR, simply because he's a Daxamite, that they're automatically more powerful than Kryptonians.

Yeah, I said that. I don't deny it. If you're trying to use this against me to argue that Superman isn't stronger than Wonder Woman, this is one of the biggest fails you've done. I give actual examples backing my case that Daxamites aren't stronger than Kryptonians. You, on the other hand, have so utterly and blatantly failed to even attempt to back your case despite the mountain RANGE of evidence proving you wrong, that it's inane and ridiculous that you continue to argue it.

Tungsten Time Tube.

Luthor as MacGeyver.

Image 3 of 3.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Lois Lane #28, Volume 1
Writer: Mort Weisinger
Penciller: John Forte (?)
Date: October 1961
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman's_Girlfriend,_Lois_Lane_Vol_1_28

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You brought up good ol' SilverBlue, and I'm sitting with this thing on my laptop, practically burning a hole in it, so ...

Luthor as MacGeyver. Image 1 of 3.

If you're using this to try and discredit Superman's Solar System Sneeze, then I'll once again pass on your message to the kettle that it's black.

Or will you stop using Wonder Woman moving the Sun, a huge sphere of plasma, with a rope around it?

Originally posted by Delta1938

That would be a valid argument [against League of One], if Diana didn't say, "I knew I couldn't beat you."

Indeed?

Originally posted by Delta1938

character statements alone prove nothing. They only support examples.

Originally posted by Delta1938

I'll once again pass on your message to the kettle that it's black.

😕

But what if it's really red and silver, and you only THINK you heard me call it black because PART of it is reflecting something that IS black?

http://oi46.tinypic.com/21e1c9w.jpg

Originally posted by Delta1938

If you're using [Luthor's Tungsten Time Tube] to try and discredit Superman's Solar System Sneeze ...

I know you're not likely to do so while you're in debate-mode, but EVENTUALLY you'll realize that there ARE people in this world that think differently than you do, and that you have to do more than simply project yourself and how YOU think into someone else to get real understanding.

At any rate, the showing I would use against "Solar System Sneeze" would be the following, and not Luthor's "MacGeyver" act, because, among other things, it roughly relates to "How Their Powers Work", which I outlined much earlier in this thread:

Image 1 of 3:

Superbreath versus Superstrength

The Case of SuperLana Lang

Image 2 of 3.

Superbreath versus Superstrength.

The Case of SuperLana Lang.

Image 3 of 3.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Superboy #143, Volume 1
Writer: E. Nelson Bridwell
Penciller: Al Plastino
Date: December 1967
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superboy_Vol_1_143

By the way, not that I personally put much stock into it, if any, but, DC itself DOES advertize League of One as a win for Wonder Woman over Superman. You can see that here ... at least today (June 13, 2012)

http://www.dccomics.com/graphic-novels/jla-a-league-of-one

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This thread needs a "Route56" page.
Page 32 has URL stock for a linkdirectory.
And page56, which we're nearly at, should prove perfect for the task.

Well, there isn't so, We just have to cope

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Salsa, in answer to your question, in the context of the first fight of Justice League of America v1 #63, where the engagement is won by simply and suddenly moving a relatively light 150 pound unanchored woman from point A to point B,

the answer is "yes".

Being unable to fly means Diana has about as much chance of effectively resisting sudden superbreath as she would have of making an express elevator stop taking her to the 2nd floor of a building with the car 6 inches from being there.

I disagree, this is plain and simple.

Diana and the JLA do not want to get out of the room, Superman against their will force them to get out. and there was nothing they can do. No hallucinations and no holding back (Well maybe Superman was holding back)

Superman moves at Super speed and there is nothing Diana can do vs Superman. and if I start digging I bet I can find Diana resisting hurricane level wins or stopping a car dead on it's track.

And what about the second showing? why Diana got KO?

Also, do You think Diana is stronger then PC Silver Age Superman?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
By the way, not that I personally put much stock into it, if any, but, DC itself DOES advertize League of One as a win for Wonder Woman over Superman. You can see that here ... at least today (June 13, 2012)

http://www.dccomics.com/graphic-novels/jla-a-league-of-one

Lol that must be wrong.

Have you read the issue?

Diana concedes she can't beat Superman.

But Superman has to save his team mates

I guess Charly Sheen wrote that. He turned a loss into a win?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Indeed?

Yep, you'd have a point about what I said, if Diana didn't say this.

As for the Supergirl example, hey, good job!! You finally found an actual showing instead of relying entirely on statements. Now let's see you match these.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Apokoliptian%20Armor%20Luthor/

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Villains/Apokoliptian%20Armor%20Luthor/S-B%206/

Originally posted by abhilegend
As for bluewaterrider's demand of proof that superman is stronger than supergirl in 2004-08, here we go.

Amalak oneshots supergirl and powergirl with red sun and artificial kryptonite. Superman overpowers him.

And still waiting for evidence of Wonder Woman being stronger than Superman. The one example you gave contradicts your own standards for what matters, so that means you haven't provided any examples. All it shows is she's strong, not stronger than Superman. On the other hand, we have these.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Strength/Relative%20Strength/Wonder%20Woman/

And this.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Wonder%20Woman-Superman%20VS%20Doomsday%20Animates/

And this.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Supergirl-Dark%20Kara/Superman-Wonder%20Woman/

And this.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Titus/

And this too.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Mongul/

And by the way, I have to say Superman's performance here is much more impressive than all of Diana's Omac encounters combined.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Villains/Omacs/AOS%20643/

Since it took you weeks to provide one contradictory example for Wonder Woman and one actual solid example for Supergirl, I'm sure I'll be waiting a very long time.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😕

But what if it's really red and silver, and you only THINK you heard me call it black because PART of it is reflecting something that IS black?

http://oi46.tinypic.com/21e1c9w.jpg

Actually, that did make me chuckle. Doesn't change the fact though that you're complaining about people bringing-up the context behind Wonder Woman's two whole wins, but you're nitpicking and ignoring and even making shit up so you can dismiss Superman blatantly showing to be stronger than her.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I know you're not likely to do so while you're in debate-mode, but EVENTUALLY you'll realize that there ARE people in this world that think differently than you do, and that you have to do more than simply project yourself and how YOU think into someone else to get real understanding.

At any rate, the showing I would use against "Solar System Sneeze" would be the following, and not Luthor's "MacGeyver" act, because, among other things, it roughly relates to "How Their Powers Work", which I outlined much earlier in this thread:

Image 1 of 3:

Then.....what was the point of that? You tried dismissing Superman's Solar System Buster sneeze as "The Silver Age was whacky" then show Luthor making a time manipulation thingamijiggy out of junk he can get in his cell. What else am I supposed to think?

Oh, and what you'd use against Superman's Solar System Busting sneeze? Fail. Superman busted a solar system by sneezing. Mxy had nothing to do with it aside from giving him the reaction TO sneeze. But hey, keep on grasping at those straws as you fall off the cliff if it makes you feel better.

Originally posted by biensalsa

We just have to cope

We've created, collectively,

a pre-Crisis Wonder Woman respect thread,

an early Golden Age Superman respect thread,

a catalog of some of the most famous fights either character has had in the past 20 years,

a photo collection of over 300 scans ...

and now we can't figure a way to make a simple link directory on the page after this one FOR this thread ...?

...

(Next week it is, then.)

Originally posted by biensalsa
I disagree, this is plain and simple.

Diana and the JLA do not want to get out of the room,
Superman against their will force them to get out.
and there was nothing they can do.
No hallucinations and no holding back
(Well maybe Superman was holding back)

This is one of those cases where I disagree.
I mean, might-not-SLEEP-properly-if-I don't-voice-this-objection-level disagree, not the
fine-I'll-come-back-to-this-later-if-and-when-somebody-reminds-me-level disagree
that you often see from me.

Earlier, BY THE VERY SAME author (Gardner Fox),
we (Silver Age readers) were shown Flash dutifully putting down Superman's power equivalent, Ultraman.
(Hadn't PUT him down, but was well on the way.)

By himself.

Barehanded.

Now Flash, even WITH the help of other JLA members, can't challenge Earth-1's "Ultraman"??

Refer to Justice League of America v1 #s 30 and 29.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This is one of those cases where I disagree.
I mean, might-not-SLEEP-properly-if-I don't-voice-this-objection-level disagree, not the
fine-I'll-come-back-to-this-later-if-and-when-somebody-reminds-me-level disagree
that you often see from me.

Earlier, BY THE VERY SAME author (Gardner Fox),
we (Silver Age readers) were shown Flash dutifully putting down Superman's power equivalent, Ultraman.
(Hadn't PUT him down, but was well on the way.)

By himself.

Barehanded.

Now Flash, even WITH the help of other JLA members, can't challenge Earth-1's "Ultraman"??

Refer to Justice League of America v1 #s 30 and 29.

Here's an example of how well being someone's power equivalent helped them out, even with help from others.

Full fight here.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS%20Teams/CSA%20Trinity/