Samus vs The Lich King

Started by ScreamPaste5 pages

12. Certain characters are known to be omnipotent or invulnerable canonically. Examples of such are Pyron, whose actual limitations are not known, Pyramid Head, who is essentially an incorporeal manifestation of psycological issues, and Ganon, who cannot be defeated without the Master Sword and/or Light Arrows.
The KMC rules. The current standings have been changed. Also, the Lich King can be defeated, and that's all that's required of Samus, not utter destruction.

It's not a strawman, at all, because I wasn't using it to prove anything other than that you're line of thinking was flawed.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I didn't take it out of context, I showed your line of reason to be faulty.

You solely focused on the 'Samus and 4 others' part of the sentence and from what it looks like didn't pay much attention to the rest. Would you rather I have gone back to the thread and typed them out name by name? Too lazy.

Yes, you did take it out of context, whether it was intentional or not. Scenario's interpretation seems to confirm my accusations.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
As for engineering it to my own needs? I haven't backed either character in this thread, so what need did I satisfy by showing that?

No, you're right, it's just off-topic nitpicking.

Satisfied?

Yep. 😛

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The KMC rules. The current standings have been changed. Also, the Lich King can be defeated, and that's all that's required of Samus, not utter destruction.

Newsflash, he's already been defeated.

No, he's not invulnerable - and I've even specified to Scenario what makes him vulnerable. In both threads. What else do I need to remind you of? I've even gone so far as to thoughtfully toss in Lightbeam/suit as an option for Samus.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
It's not a strawman, at all, because I wasn't using it to prove anything other than that you're line of thinking was flawed.

You separated part of my post and created an incorrect conclusion out of it.

Say what you like, it's a textbook strawman.

You separated part of my post and created an incorrect conclusion out of it.

Say what you like, it's a textbook strawman.

Negative.

The conclusion was perfectly valid because your innitial conclusion was flawed.

You took:
Samus was in a thread with allies v.s. the Lich King.

Concluded:
Therefore she must need them to fight him and loses.

This is flawed reasoning.

I took it and concluded:
The poster of said thread's opinion of the power of those characters may or may not have been accurate. Therefore, this is not evidence of the relative power of said characters.

You done?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Therefore she must need them to fight him and loses.

You basically confirmed my point from simply from using the characters in their correct circumstances. This is correct, but take a look at what you said earlier.
Lich King, Sargeras, Ganondorf, and King of All Cosmos v.s. MC, that doesn't mean MC v.s. any of them is a spite thread against them. (Infact, they're all spite against chief.)

You picked 5 arbitrary strong characters and pit them against a comparatively weak one. By doing that you established yourself as being on the more general outlook of the choice, whereas I was more into the character choice and circumstances in these particular threads. It's not like every 1v5 that breaks off a 1v1 will have the any of the same outcomes.

I suppose you would be correct if you thought I was also putting that quote as a general statement, but in this case, with these characters, yes it is spite. It's obvious at this point that you picked a poor example there though regardless.

Well, Cyner specified that they get everything. I believe this would include one time things like the Omega Cannon and the other seven weapons from Hunters. The Light/Dark/Annihilator/Nova/Hyper/Phazon/Spazer/Wide Beams are all one-game weapons that don't appear again, as well, so...yeah.

Cyner also specified that the Lich King is everyone that has held the title in one being (sort of like Link, actually...) so he gets the old stuff as well as the new guy.

This is a pretty difficult match to think about. I have no idea how durable the Lich King is, but Samus has dealt with the supernatural, some of which was explicitly magical. However, this usually happens when magic and tech mix. Magic is on the "no limits" side while tech is usually more well defined. What would happen if you nuked and magical barrier, for example. Samus is perfectly capable of nuking something, too.

The Battlehammer, from Hunters, is a miniature nuclear reactor. The Omega Cannon itself gives off huge amounts of gamma radiation, and is said to be a Weapon of Mass Destruction. Pretty heavily hinted that she did nuke Gorea. The annihilator beam is matter-antimatter, and that reation tends to be fairly nuclear, too.

So, what would happen if the Lich King got nuked? Or plasma'd, electrocuted, or dare I say it, frozen? It's confirmed that Samus' ice weapons reach near absolute zero, the coldest it's possible to get. Actually, never mind, I don't want to go there. Let's stick to plasma, electricity, and nukes for now.

i love kmc. where real men debate things things that are totally irrelevant to the topic like choosing a bad example!

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i love kmc. where real men debate things things that are totally irrelevant to the topic like choosing a bad example!

lol Ms. Marvel, someone has to go off topic, and it might as well be Screampaste!

I am, afteral, an exemplar of herculean manliness. 😎

Originally posted by The Scenario
Well, Cyner specified that they get everything. I believe this would include one time things like the Omega Cannon and the other seven weapons from Hunters. The Light/Dark/Annihilator/Nova/Hyper/Phazon/Spazer/Wide Beams are all one-game weapons that don't appear again, as well, so...yeah.

Well, what I meant is that the Omega was only used for one purpose, to kill Gorea. And it was only used for a few minutes on the last 'phase' of the encounter.

I automatically assumed the other weaponry as acceptable simply because they were used more than just one phase of one boss fight. It's up to thread creator to clarify the decision though.

Originally posted by The Scenario
What would happen if you nuked and magical barrier, for example. Samus is perfectly capable of nuking something, too.

The Battlehammer, from Hunters, is a miniature nuclear reactor. The Omega Cannon itself gives off huge amounts of gamma radiation, and is said to be a Weapon of Mass Destruction. Pretty heavily hinted that she did nuke Gorea. The annihilator beam is matter-antimatter, and that reation tends to be fairly nuclear, too.

So, what would happen if the Lich King got nuked? Or plasma'd, electrocuted, or dare I say it, frozen? It's confirmed that Samus' ice weapons reach near absolute zero, the coldest it's possible to get. Actually, never mind, I don't want to go there. Let's stick to plasma, electricity, and nukes for now.


All those listed are physical attacks. Whether he would survive a head on hit without trying to protect himself with a orb of nuclear capability power I cannot say. I'm pretty sure that if Arthas and Icecrown Citadel could be just nuked into the ground that the good guys wouldn't have wasted so many lives and finance and instead just developed some giant-ass bomb. Hell, if they can engineer teleportation I would definitely imagine a bomb isn't something to fuss about either.

Thus far there hasn't and never will be a demonstration of the Lich King's defensive abilities, considering he's dead. So I won't go around throwing bombshells and theories regarding LK specifically. But other mages in the Warcraft lore, even in a weakened state, could hold off a lot of things. Krasus for example, even when exhausted he could hold up a magical barrier against a enormous burst of elemental lava from Deathwing (dragon aspect who turned to the Dark Side, to put things simply)

Now, if the Omega Beam does manage to hurt or kill his physical shell, it's not a magical attack. It would only put him down temporarily. As I said in the other thread, you'd have to destroy the helm and the sword too in order to put him down for good, and those need magic.

But all that needs to be considered if Omega Beam hits him. From what I garner, it's quite slow for a beam. And while LK isn't nearly as quick as Samus, he isn't exactly sluggish. He still retains Arthas martial abilities, which are amplified through Frostmourne.

As for the other beam attacks, the electricity and whatnot - those aren't magical attacks either. He's faced down users of the primal forces of these types of attacks. For example, he's superior to the Aspect of Magic, Malygos - who's done things like some crazy ass existence-wiping beam, plus things like pure elemental lightning, not just a lightning beam like Samus. I'm not downgrading Samus's gear, but her gear just doesn't match up to something of that magnitude.

However, what piques my interest is the Dark/Light beams and suits. I don't know what makes/generates them, but they sound more magical and less physical in nature, which was why I brought it up earlier.

Originally posted by The Scenario
1. Screw Attack at the speed of sound. Samus is faster than the LK, and the Speed Booster only increases that.

When you say this, you have of course taken in consideration that when Arthas was just Arthas, he indifferently yawned of a speeding arrow and split it in half with his sword. This was a feat before he combined with the Lich King and his awareness increased ten thousand fold.

In case it is news to you, a common human is capable of firing an arrow at roughly 450 fps with the right bow. Sylvanas is not a common human and has no common bow and her arrows travel a great deal faster.

Not saying he is as fast, nearly as fast or anything like that. You just make it seem like he is utterly chanceless to a fast move. I personaly can see him react to a move the speed of sound. At least fast enough to phase shift and turn the tide.

It would not be far fetched, from what I know about Sylvanas, which I admit isn't that much, for her arrows to move at mach 1.

Would he even bother to get out of the way is the question, at least IMO.

Originally posted by DarkC
Well, what I meant is that the Omega was only used for one purpose, to kill Gorea. And it was only used for a few minutes on the last 'phase' of the encounter.

It's sort of a recent tradition of Metroid to have the final boss defeated by something Samus got a few minutes before. The Hyper Beam worked this way. Samus' Phazon Suit converted nearby phazon into a beam weapon out of nowhere, her charge beam once suddenly gained the ability to absorb a boss' attack to fire it back when it couldn't before (and hasn't done so since). This once even happened to the Ice Beam, despite usually being gained midway through the game.


I automatically assumed the other weaponry as acceptable simply because they were used more than just one phase of one boss fight. It's up to thread creator to clarify the decision though.

Eh, he did say everything was allowed.


All those listed are physical attacks. Whether he would survive a head on hit without trying to protect himself with a orb of nuclear capability power I cannot say. I'm pretty sure that if Arthas and Icecrown Citadel could be just nuked into the ground that the good guys wouldn't have wasted so many lives and finance and instead just developed some giant-ass bomb. Hell, if they can engineer teleportation I would definitely imagine a bomb isn't something to fuss about either.

I blame the Gnomes. They don't exactly have great guns, and the only explosives I've seen are gunpowder based. Also, PIS may have been involved. I know it's possible to enchant guns and gunpowder, so a magic bomb shouldn't be too tough to pull off. There's no way to tell unless someone actually tries it.


Thus far there hasn't and never will be a demonstration of the Lich King's defensive abilities, considering he's dead. So I won't go around throwing bombshells and theories regarding LK specifically. But other mages in the Warcraft lore, even in a weakened state, could hold off a lot of things. Krasus for example, even when exhausted he could hold up a magical barrier against a enormous burst of elemental lava from Deathwing (dragon aspect who turned to the Dark Side, to put things simply)

Interesting, but Samus is armed with things more potent than lava, and can even swim in the stuff without harm. Yeah, weakest one and all that, but I've never been fond of that kind of example as it only establishes a lower limit, rather than a higher one. And looking them both up, it seem Krasus is something of a badass, so the barrier holding doesn't seem out of the ordinary.


Now, if the Omega Beam does manage to hurt or kill his physical shell, it's not a magical attack. It would only put him down temporarily. As I said in the other thread, you'd have to destroy the helm and the sword too in order to put him down for good, and those need magic.

I dunno. Wouldn't something like that still count as a defeat, if not a death? How fast could he reform?


But all that needs to be considered if Omega Beam hits him. From what I garner, it's quite slow for a beam. And while LK isn't nearly as quick as Samus, he isn't exactly sluggish. He still retains Arthas martial abilities, which are amplified through Frostmourne.

It makes up for speed with a rather huge blast radius, along with attack power. And until we finally see Samus engaged in melee, I'm going to assume she'll stay at range as long as possible.

As for the other beam attacks, the electricity and whatnot - those aren't magical attacks either. He's faced down users of the primal forces of these types of attacks. For example, he's superior to the Aspect of Magic, Malygos - who's done things like some crazy ass existence-wiping beam, plus things like pure elemental lightning, not just a lightning beam like Samus. I'm not downgrading Samus's gear, but her gear just doesn't match up to something of that magnitude.

What is magic, really? It's impossible to say what makes it superior. I can't say anything about magic, but lightning I can argue. One of Samus' weapons draws directly from the electromagnetic field of whatever planet she's on, or from the suit itself. Whichever. She took that one from a guy who was constantly giving off enough electrical energy to rival an entire thunderstorm, and every single lightning bolt contained within. These weapons are in the terawatt range (1,000,000,000,000 watts of power) and could power the the United States for a year with a single shot. It's actually one of the weaker weapons.

As I've said, Metroid tech is on a whole other level from things like Halo (500,000 watts in most weapons), Star Trek (a terawatt can power the Enterprise), and Star Wars. There a guy in Metroid one wields two nuclear reactors on his person at all times, in addition to whatever powers his suit. There's a half-robot dragon who breathes plasma instead of fire (this was before the enhancements, though), and sometimes prefers his missile launcher while he flies around with forcefield wings. Research stations are capable of destroying planets. And Samus is still considered one of the strongest beings there.


However, what piques my interest is the Dark/Light beams and suits. I don't know what makes/generates them, but they sound more magical and less physical in nature, which was why I brought it up earlier.

The basic gist is this: Aether is a rogue planet, meaning it has no sun. There is a mysterious energy source on it known as the Light of Aether, which serves several purposes. One of them is seving as a star and replacing sunlight. The other is keeping the planet itself stable. Without the Light, it would implode. Also on Aether are the Luminoth, psychic moth creatures to whom the Light has great religious significance. They built Energy Controllers to regulate it and prevent it from getting out of hand. It's like holy energy to them.

The Light Beam and Light Suit are made from the Light of Aether, and are especially effective against dark creatures and other such things. The Light Beam also has a missile combo called the Sunburst, which is exactly what it sounds like. A huge bomb of Light, pretty much. The Dark Beam and Dark Suit are the counterparts, and they are formed of the energy from Dark Aether, Aether's alternate dimension. They are effective against Light creatures, which are defined as anything not from Dark Aether. The Dark Beam's missile combo is the Darkburst, which tears open a portal that sucks things in and rips them apart.

The Annihilator Beam is wierd, with multiple properties. It's a matter-antimatter weapon with both a Light and Dark nature, and also has sonic weapon qualities. It also homes in on enemies and is rapid-fire. Its missile combo is the Sonic Boom, which basically fires the sound barrier at things.

Samus can also see and kill super natural enemies such as Phantoon and Chozo ghosts.

Originally posted by The Scenario
It's sort of a recent tradition of Metroid to have the final boss defeated by something Samus got a few minutes before. The Hyper Beam worked this way. Samus' Phazon Suit converted nearby phazon into a beam weapon out of nowhere, her charge beam once suddenly gained the ability to absorb a boss' attack to fire it back when it couldn't before (and hasn't done so since). This once even happened to the Ice Beam, despite usually being gained midway through the game.

Regardless it's still on the borderline of her arsenal, something fleetingly brief like that. Ice beam I can understand, because it's been in at least several. What other weapons/gear have been the case of Omega Beam, a one-time-one-boss usage?

Originally posted by The Scenario
I blame the Gnomes. They don't exactly have great guns, and the only explosives I've seen are gunpowder based. Also, PIS may have been involved. I know it's possible to enchant guns and gunpowder, so a magic bomb shouldn't be too tough to pull off. There's no way to tell unless someone actually tries it.

Maybe not in terms of first impressions, no. And considering the chaotic and creative use of magic in the Warcraft universe, a magical bomb is not out of the impossible at all.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Interesting, but Samus is armed with things more potent than lava, and can even swim in the stuff without harm. Yeah, weakest one and all that, but I've never been fond of that kind of example as it only establishes a lower limit, rather than a higher one. And looking them both up, it seem Krasus is something of a badass, so the barrier holding doesn't seem out of the ordinary.

It wasn't lava as much it was the breath from a prime Aspect, who happens to be warder of the land itself. Before he turned evil, that is. That and factoring in how Krasus was exhausted and at the end of the line gives some insight to how much and what a magical barrier can actually withstand in the Warcraft universe.

I realise that yeah, it's a rather limiting insight, but as you can see the bar is quite high even at the lower levels. Best example I could think of off the top of my head.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I dunno. Wouldn't something like that still count as a defeat, if not a death? How fast could he reform?

His soul, as much his as it belongs to Frostmourne, is the true extent of his power - the 'magical' part of the Lich King, so to speak - which is where the whole destroying the sword and the helm comes from.

The act of the Lich King's soul within Artha's body is mostly symbolic, which is where the helm and sword come into relevance. The act of putting the helmet on merged their entities into one being, using Artha's body as an avatar.

Originally posted by The Scenario
It makes up for speed with a rather huge blast radius, along with attack power. And until we finally see Samus engaged in melee, I'm going to assume she'll stay at range as long as possible.

I think she'd probably just use Screw Attack once or just use it to widen the gap.
Originally posted by The Scenario
What is magic, really? It's impossible to say what makes it superior. I can't say anything about magic, but lightning I can argue. One of Samus' weapons draws directly from the electromagnetic field of whatever planet she's on, or from the suit itself. Whichever. She took that one from a guy who was constantly giving off enough electrical energy to rival an entire thunderstorm, and every single lightning bolt contained within. These weapons are in the terawatt range (1,000,000,000,000 watts of power) and could power the the United States for a year with a single shot. It's actually one of the weaker weapons.

As I've said, Metroid tech is on a whole other level from things like Halo (500,000 watts in most weapons), Star Trek (a terawatt can power the Enterprise), and Star Wars. There a guy in Metroid one wields two nuclear reactors on his person at all times, in addition to whatever powers his suit. There's a half-robot dragon who breathes plasma instead of fire (this was before the enhancements, though), and sometimes prefers his missile launcher while he flies around with forcefield wings. Research stations are capable of destroying planets. And Samus is still considered one of the strongest beings there.


I think you might have made a bit of a hasty comparison here trying to pose magic against concepts that are more modern, logical, and easier to comprehend. I can understand why you're trying to do this, although I can tell you at the same time that it won't make sense even if you force it too. Magic in their world is chaotic. To put it in a more colloquial sense, it's like trying to compare chairs and bears.

The idea behind magic is that it comes in a lot of different forms and levels of power. It would take too long to form some kind of a power heirarchy regarding specific characters. The effects of the spells are comparable to those of technology. Like, if a warlock summoned Hell's own fire to destroy his enemies, they would be burned to death. Likewise, if Samus used her flamethrower to torch her enemies, they would be burned to death.

While those numbers and statistics are indeed impressive considering modern technology, it still pales in comparison to the kind of attacks he's faced. It doesn't seem like you understand my comprehension earlier, but put more simply it's the different between using a very powerful lightning-based attack vs. an attack born from the Spirit of Lightning itself (in Warcraft's case, fire). It just doesn't compare at all.

Technology vs magic was always an impasse of a debate anyway.

Originally posted by The Scenario
The basic gist is this: Aether is a rogue planet, meaning it has no sun. There is a mysterious energy source on it known as the Light of Aether, which serves several purposes. One of them is seving as a star and replacing sunlight. The other is keeping the planet itself stable. Without the Light, it would implode. Also on Aether are the Luminoth, psychic moth creatures to whom the Light has great religious significance. They built Energy Controllers to regulate it and prevent it from getting out of hand. It's like holy energy to them.

The Light Beam and Light Suit are made from the Light of Aether, and are especially effective against dark creatures and other such things. The Light Beam also has a missile combo called the Sunburst, which is exactly what it sounds like. A huge bomb of Light, pretty much. The Dark Beam and Dark Suit are the counterparts, and they are formed of the energy from Dark Aether, Aether's alternate dimension. They are effective against Light creatures, which are defined as anything not from Dark Aether. The Dark Beam's missile combo is the Darkburst, which tears open a portal that sucks things in and rips them apart.


When you say "Light" or "Dark" do they pertain to the words in a religous sense, like Holy and Evil, or is it more symbolic towards the colors themselves?

She'd need some kind of Light-based attack with incredible power akin to Omega Beam to be a decent adversary for Arthas. LK's faced down both holy, unholy, and shadow based magical attacks before. Again, I look towards the kind of power that was put into Ashbringer to be able to shatter Frostmourne - they basically had to imbue it with (to put it into casual terms) part of God's own essence.

Originally posted by Cyner
Samus can also see and kill super natural enemies such as Phantoon and Chozo ghosts.

Something many often fail to understand with the Lich King, is that when he spirit walk, he does not become a spirit in the physical realm. In order to see him when he shift state, you need to be able to see through dimensions. At least parallel ones.

Originally posted by Phantom Miria
[b]Something many often fail to understand with the Lich King, is that when he spirit walk, he does not become a spirit in the physical realm. In order to see him when he shift state, you need to be able to see through dimensions. At least parallel ones. [/B]

Luckily she has two visors that let her do precisely that. The dark visor lets her see into other dimentions/planes of existence, and the X-ray visor lets her see phase shifted beings or ghost beings. All of which she doesn't need anything more than her power beam to shoot.

Phantoon was the only super natural enemy you didn't need a different visor to see but that was in Super Metroid and he did phase in and out.

Originally posted by DarkC
[B]Regardless it's still on the borderline of her arsenal, something fleetingly brief like that. Ice beam I can understand, because it's been in at least several. What other weapons/gear have been the case of Omega Beam, a one-time-one-boss usage?

Hyper Beam, original Phazon Beam, and the Omega Cannon. The Ice Beam example was from a point where Samus couldn't get it due to the plot. The Charge beam absorbing and redirecting attacks was more a case an old weapon doing something new.


It wasn't lava as much it was the breath from a prime Aspect, who happens to be warder of the land itself. Before he turned evil, that is. That and factoring in how Krasus was exhausted and at the end of the line gives some insight to how much and what a magical barrier can actually withstand in the Warcraft universe.

But my question is, what makes it different from normal lava? Granted, normal lava is still extremely dangerous, but what makes Dearhwing's better? You said LK was better at magic than the Aspect of magic. What is it that makes Malygos' magic better than others, and what in turn make the LK better than that?


I think you might have made a bit of a hasty comparison here trying to pose magic against concepts that are more modern, logical, and easier to comprehend. I can understand why you're trying to do this, although I can tell you at the same time that it won't make sense even if you force it too. Magic in their world is chaotic. To put it in a more colloquial sense, it's like trying to compare chairs and bears.

The idea behind magic is that it comes in a lot of different forms and levels of power. It would take too long to form some kind of a power heirarchy regarding specific characters. The effects of the spells are comparable to those of technology. Like, if a warlock summoned Hell's own fire to destroy his enemies, they would be burned to death. Likewise, if Samus used her flamethrower to torch her enemies, they would be burned to death.

While those numbers and statistics are indeed impressive considering modern technology, it still pales in comparison to the kind of attacks he's faced. It doesn't seem like you understand my comprehension earlier, but put more simply it's the different between using a very powerful lightning-based attack vs. an attack born from the Spirit of Lightning itself (in Warcraft's case, fire). It just doesn't compare at all.

Technology vs magic was always an impasse of a debate anyway.

Exactly. Just like the lava, I do not understand what makes magic "just better" than not magic. The electrical attack vs. elemental lightning is particularly jarring. Given that the electric blast is as powerful, or more, as a lightning strike (or an entire storm, say), why is an attack from a Spirit seen as better? I currently have no reason to believe that a Spirit of Lightning would be able to do more damage than a non-magical lightning strike. I assume it embodies lightning, but that doesn't exactly mean its lightning is more powerful.

Lava vs. plasma is another. Would Deathwing's lava compare to plasma, for example? I just don't really believe it. Besides, Samus has her own magma grenade launcher. Not important, but worth mentioning.


When you say "Light" or "Dark" do they pertain to the words in a religous sense, like Holy and Evil, or is it more symbolic towards the colors themselves?

Hard to say. The Light of Aether is certainly considered holy, and the dark energy of the Ing is unholy. Dark Aether has a corrosive and life draining atmosphere, for example, and the Ing can't survive on Aether.