That's a much better justification (though ironically, less important to Renegades, unless you are fence-mendng). You can claim you had local support and the outcome is better for everyone.
The best justification of all would be that you were protecting the Republic- but sadly Aquilla has shown no signs of threatening anyone like that.
Indeed, which is why I tried to avoid it.
Though for the irony, deep down Wentar does respect the Order and would like to return some day. There is just too many who need help away from the Galactic Center for him to remain with the Jedi.
So such a thought isn't too out of character for Wentar, he realizes that such a change in the Republic would do more harm in trying to bring help to the outer areas, as well as the innocent people of the Republic. While out here he sees it as a win/win, a corrupt leader removed from power and a new leader being put in place who will think of the peoples interests.
Here is the justification that I presented to Ush,
1) She attacked us first, we were acting peacefully and she, without warning, attacked back. We are thereby justified in attacking her, as she has been hostile towards us.
2) We have seen her use the dark side for her own ends. She used it to attack us, and it is therefore reasonable to suspect that she is using to keep control of the planet.
3) It would be beneficial to us to have a leader in place on Thalos who is not hostile to us, in case we ever have to go back. (Which, if the SnK is ON Thalos....Like my theory suggests..)
4) She is clearly a bad/evil politician, and there is some justice to removing an evil politician.
5) (and here is where it gets a bit squirrily.) We are, kinda, doing the will of the Force. Aquilla has seen a prophecy in which the jedi overthrow her. Now, in knowing about this prophecy she has become excessively fearful, which lead her to attack us. This act hase caused us to act, or want to act in a way that fulfills this prophecy. Hence, the doing the will of the force thing. However, interesting tidbit to think about, if Aquilla had never known about the prophecy, would it have come true? I would say no. as her actions are directly caused by her knowledge of this prophecy. So we can be seen to be doing to will of the force in fulfilling this prophecy, albiet in a rather circular and odd way.
Now, concluding, each one of these reasons alone would not justify us in attacking her. However, when they all are combined, I feel that we are not only justified, but would be acting from a sort of necessity of justice to help Thea. We, being Jedi, are compelled to do what we believe is good, and help spread peace and justice. Is Thalos now a justice and peaceful place? I would argue that it is not. Would instilling Thea as a ruler create this peace and justice? It is hard to say, but I think there is a higher chance, than without her. Because we believe this, we must see if there is proper justification for violating our non-intervention stance, and based on the points raised above I feel that there is. Only in these circumstances are we justified in taking the proposed actions. We are not revolutionaries, we do not desire to go around starting coups in all the places we do not feel there is enough justice. But when enough lines have been crossed, and enough evidence has been presented, we are compelled to act.
So basicly, if this planet was in the Republic and the ruler was NOT a Dark Side user, no one would help the planet out.
Even with the planet outside the Republic and the ruler was NOT a Dark Side user, no one would help out either.
If this comes down to removing a Dark Side user (who has taken power, and was thus not democraticly elected) with no expansion plans... well, if the subjects are being pushed around there would be an opening but from the library trip you could note that they were not harrassing us. They were doing their job while we were sneaking around. I would say slavery on Tatooine would be a bigger issue than the conditions of these people. (the last part is in addition to what Ushgarak says: corruption is also in the republic etc.)
My main concern is... where do you guys want to draw the line?
The Witches of Dathomir (thanks Xeth!) have a rule "don't conceide to evil" but they do happily fight each other to get male mates (according to wookiepedia, but considering I'm a scolar, I would guess I have basic knowledge of these things?). So the Lady being violent would mean you guys should also go to Dathomir to tackle the Witches. Or do that when you are in the neighbourhood.
Also, quite a lot of you guys are Renegades. This basicly means that you are not controlled by the Council. Does this mean the Council-following-Jedi should start hunting Renegades because you might do something evil in your "unsupervised" mission-time? Once you go down the path of Evil, "forever will it dominate you"... And Gallaghar is deciding his stance based on his personal conviction, isn't that already a slippery slope? (nothing personal against renegades, both in this game as out, but the Council does not have an idea if you guys are 100% "clean" when you're not controlled by them. I'm not comparing you to Dark Side users, just pointing out that "unsupervised" force users are more common than you realise.)
What exactly makes this case so unique we have to go beyond the mission? Why do we have to help another Lady (who I would say is "less evil" but still not 100% Light) and postpone a threat that can hurt the Republic?
To the first bit though, Jovan, it's not simply because the planet is out oif the Republic (or at least I hope not|). It;s because the equivalent worlds in the Republic can't have their leaderships taken out without then causing greater chaos. You have good cause for saying that would not happen here.
They have also said it would be no different if Aquilla was not a Dark Side user.
The irony of the prophecy that you would help Thea overthrow Aquila is part of the problem with the Dark Side of course- Aquilla may well cause it to pass precisely because she tried so hard to stop it. The sensible thing would have been to leave you guys alone and you would never have been a threat to her, but her control-obsession meant she never even considered that.
Originally posted by Jovan
So basicly, if this planet was in the Republic and the ruler was NOT a Dark Side user, no one would help the planet out.Even with the planet outside the Republic and the ruler was NOT a Dark Side user, no one would help out either.
This is exactly my argument. The special circumstances here, allow for, and even require separate actions that may not be permissible in other places. The fact is, we arn't dealing with the witches (which might not even exist in Ush's SW universe), or even Hutt Space. So to compare them is to not understand the differences.
Originally posted by Tptmanno1
Here is the justification that I presented to Ush,1) She attacked us first, we were acting peacefully and she, without warning, attacked back. We are thereby justified in attacking her, as she has been hostile towards us.
2) We have seen her use the dark side for her own ends. She used it to attack us, and it is therefore reasonable to suspect that she is using to keep control of the planet.
3) It would be beneficial to us to have a leader in place on Thalos who is not hostile to us, in case we ever have to go back. (Which, if the SnK is ON Thalos....Like my theory suggests..)
4) She is clearly a bad/evil politician, and there is some justice to removing an evil politician.
5) (and here is where it gets a bit squirrily.) We are, kinda, doing the will of the Force. Aquilla has seen a prophecy in which the jedi overthrow her. Now, in knowing about this prophecy she has become excessively fearful, which lead her to attack us. This act hase caused us to act, or want to act in a way that fulfills this prophecy. Hence, the doing the will of the force thing. However, interesting tidbit to think about, if Aquilla had never known about the prophecy, would it have come true? I would say no. as her actions are directly caused by her knowledge of this prophecy. So we can be seen to be doing to will of the force in fulfilling this prophecy, albiet in a rather circular and odd way.Now, concluding, each one of these reasons alone would not justify us in attacking her. However, when they all are combined, I feel that we are not only justified, but would be acting from a sort of necessity of justice to help Thea. We, being Jedi, are compelled to do what we believe is good, and help spread peace and justice. Is Thalos now a justice and peaceful place? I would argue that it is not. Would instilling Thea as a ruler create this peace and justice? It is hard to say, but I think there is a higher chance, than without her. Because we believe this, we must see if there is proper justification for violating our non-intervention stance, and based on the points raised above I feel that there is. Only in these circumstances are we justified in taking the proposed actions. We are not revolutionaries, we do not desire to go around starting coups in all the places we do not feel there is enough justice. But when enough lines have been crossed, and enough evidence has been presented, we are compelled to act.
I was writing my reply while you responded but I want to respond to your post...
1) I can't remember the exact Yoda quote but a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never for an attack. She attacked us, yes but now that we have a chance to leave do we really have to go all the way to her to attack/kill/dethrone her? This is a respons to an attack not a defence. I do not stand behind this particular reason at all!
2) Witches of Dathomir use the Force as well aaaand they have male slaves. Why not help there? If I understand wookiepedia correctly, Dathomir is INSIDE the Republic and still they do shit about it. Thus, why mess around with a planet OUTSIDE the Republic? She uses the force for personal gain, I take it the lost 20 (or 19 since we are before Dooku or around that time) had some "members" doing force stuff for their gain as well. Besides that, she uses corruption and the Force to get a hold on the planet, numerous other planets are controlled by corruption and political murders. I think the main point of this argument is: she's a force user but my thoughts on that I refer to my previous post.
3) Personal gain is NOT the Jedi way. If "our" Lady wins: good for her! If she loses, we can still go back to this planet and ask to go find SnK. If they attack us, we defend ourselves. But putting someone on the throne (who is also NOT elected) just because you like her better is not a Light Side idea imo...
4) As ushgarak pointed out: the galaxy is full of these persons, why is this case any different?
5) Careful about prophecies. Anakin would bring balance to the Force, but Windu is doubting this... To go outside the game: Anakin was dreaming Padme died in childbirth so he went evil to save her... only to get her killed during child birth. A prophecy can easily become (or be) a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I fully agree that all reasons combined make a stronger case and Jedi should promote justice and freedom but getting another Lady on the throne who was not elected by the people? She might do a better job yes, but can we live with the fact it might not? WE will be responsible if things do not go better under her as well...
To the first, no, you do NOT have to do it at all, and there are no mechanical consequences for leaving (though there will be plot differences). However, it COULD be used as a legal justification for it, is all. She did fire first- and you guys clearly identified yourselves as Republican emissaries.
Existent or not, Dathomir was beyond Republican control (it's on the Outer Rim) and is not generally known to exist! If this same situation hd happened on Dathomir, then indeed you may also have acted this way.
As for personal gain- indeed, as mentioned, that's the worst justification. However, Roan is talking about much wider altruistic gain; that's very different. He's not doing it to make Thalos his own retirement home.
What is different is that these bad guys can be taken out and NOT cause greatly negative consequences. If you get it right. If you could, fore example, bring the Hutts to justice and NOT destroy the civilised structured of that area of space abs the resultant hardship to everyone living there, I am pretty sure you guys would do that too! You'd have every right to. It's practicality that stops the Jedi, for example, freeing all the slaves in the outer worlds- not because they support it.
As for Prophecy... at least one of you had a prophecy saying something about staying...
I believe up to this point, Vera-Kin had been keeping her vision to herself, not sure of its meaning.
But, here it is:
You see yourself. You are looking at a drawing. It has been hand made, on parchment.It shows a great circle. And around it, large triangles, or wedges.
And also a symbol. But... the symbol is blurred. You cannot see it properly. What is it? It is important in some way, you know that.
To see the symbol, you must see the drawing, for real.
But to see the drawing, you must stay...
She will ask Thea if she understands what this drawing might be off.
Vera-Kin certainly intends to go with her because she has foreseen herself staying!
"This is for the greater good," Vera-Kin says to Jovan. "Aquila is evil and her regime has not restored justice or stability to Thalos, only paranoia and darkness. She lashed out at us in fear when she need not have feared us. Thea has the chance to bring balance to this world. I believe we should give her the opportunity. Don't you?"
Originally posted by Jovan
(all of what I wrote was not my character saying)
(just as this is: )I do not follow your reasoning... she acted out of fear, so now you will do what she has feared by attacking her. If we fail, it will only strengthen her ideas.
The cruel irony of the dark side.
We simply must not fail then. We should not take into account what may happen if we fail when we choose to act, or we might never act.
Originally posted by Craft
I am also irked by your borderline opinion that Renegades should be 'monitored' because they chose to take a different path in helping the Galaxy.
My main points are:
- it's not needed to attack her, it might help the world, it might not help the world, is that worth risking your lives and those of the innocent inhabitors? Can we, as representatives of the Republic, pick a lesser evil and still say we promote freedom and justice or can we simply not get involved because we chose a status quo above uncertainty? Besides, this whole thing is not covered in the mission and thus it is not imperative to go and attack somebody.
- we are talking about attacking her. Why? Because she attacked us? Going to attack someone because "she started it!" is simply not the Jedi way: you defend yourself and that's it. She striked out of fear and now we're going to make sure she will see that her fear was justified...
If you think we return to this place, Thea might be better (if she doesn't turn worse) but if we do not go and attack the other Lady, she will have much less reason to attack us next time. If we go kick her butt and we lose, next time she will get even more aggressive.
- she's a dark side force user which is generally unfavorable but she is not expansionist and thus no threat to the Republic, besides it seems from the library trip that the people are not mistreated to a level that action is immediately required.
Calling Thea a 'lesser evil' is unkind; she's a good guy.
And that she fired on official Republican representatives without warning could be taken as a declaration of war. You have a justification to take her to task for that, and it makes her a potential threat.
And dare I remind you that Aquilla is using the Zaari to imprison or execute anyone who disagrees with her?