Nemesis vs. Living tribunal

Originally posted by Omega Vision

So what is if any is the relationship between Nemesis, the Infinity Being, and TOAA?

Classic Beyonder was not created by TOAA,
because the Beyonder always was,
and the Beyonder also encompassed a reality disconnected from the TOAA's Omniverse.

This is why Jim Shooter (TOAA & more in 1985)
claimed that Beyonder discovered him as well as the Marvel Omniverse.
He even states "we introduced the Beyonder & established
he had discovered these beings - us - we was studying"
he never even alludes to creating the fictional illustration known as the Beyonder,
and in fact Shooter instead makes himself part of the drop of water
that was the Marvelverse in comparison with the Beyonder.
This again is Shooter's attempt at making the Beyonder seem like something real
something like he's only telling the story about.

This literally separates TOAA from the Beyonder. (on panel)
(even though yes, in reality/the real world us readers know it was Shooter who created Beyonder)
But in the comic book reality (anything published by/within Marvel)
Beyonder was greater than even Shooter's existence within comics,
and that existence ... is that of TOAA. 🙂

......................................................................................

Jim Shooter - creator/writer of Secret Wars/Beyonder
(while he was Editor in chief of Marvel)

Get's interviewed ... about the Beyonder.

......................................................................................

Marvel Age is an official Marvel title,
created to discuss Marvel stories with the writers themselves of said stories
and even other intricacies concerning Marvel comics.

......................................................................................

Jim Shooter himself describes Classic Beyonder to us:

Jim states:

1. Beyonder "is a Multi-verse."

2. Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."

3. Beyonder's discovery of our Universe ... (Marvel Multiverse)

.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...

.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "

swank

This is why Beyonder had to be retconned, (de-powered)
by the next Editor in Chief (Tom DeFalco)
Beyonder was simply too much grandeur and power.

Originally posted by Mr Master
TOAA created the Infinity Being/Nemesis
and all things that have ever been born/made in the Omniverse.
TOAA did this with the stroke of its pencil.

Classic Beyonder was not created by TOAA,
because the Beyonder always was,
and the Beyonder also encompassed a reality disconnected from the TOAA's Omniverse.

This is why Jim [b]Shooter (TOAA & more in 1985)
claimed that Beyonder discovered him as well as the Marvel Omniverse.
He even states "when we introduced the Beyonder"
he never even alludes to creating the fictional illustration known as the Beyonder,
which again is Shooter's attempt at making the Beyonder seem like something real
something like he's only telling the story about.

This literally separates TOAA from the Beyonder. (on panel)
(even though yes, in reality/the real world us readers know it was Shooter who created Beyonder)
But in the comic book reality (anything published by Marvel)
Beyonder was greater than even Shooter's existence within comics,
and that existence ... is that of TOAA. 🙂

......................................................................................

Jim Shooter - creator/writer of Secret Wars/Beyonder
(while he was Editor in chief of Marvel)

Get's interviewed ... about the Beyonder.

......................................................................................

Marvel Age is an official Marvel title,
created to discuss Marvel stories with the writers themselves of said stories
and even other intricacies concerning Marvel comics.

......................................................................................

Jim Shooter himself describes Classic Beyonder to us:

Jim states:

1. Beyonder "is a Multi-verse."

2. Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."

3. Beyonder's discovery of our Universe ... (Marvel Multiverse)

.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...

.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "

swank

This is why Beyonder had to be retconned, (de-powered)
by the next Editor in Chief (Tom DeFalco) simply too much grander and power. [/B]

Thanks for the info. 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
TOAA created the Infinity Being/Nemesis
and all things that have ever been born/made in the Omniverse.
TOAA did this with the stroke of its pencil.
(that's the way TOAA's power works: two beings, one thinks up the story & the other draws them)

Classic Beyonder was not created by TOAA,
because the Beyonder always was,
and the Beyonder also encompassed a reality disconnected from the TOAA's Omniverse.

This is why Jim [b]Shooter (TOAA & more in 1985)
claimed that Beyonder discovered him as well as the Marvel Omniverse.
He even states "when we introduced the Beyonder"
he never even alludes to creating the fictional illustration known as the Beyonder,
which again is Shooter's attempt at making the Beyonder seem like something real
something like he's only telling the story about.

This literally separates TOAA from the Beyonder. (on panel)
(even though yes, in reality/the real world us readers know it was Shooter who created Beyonder)
But in the comic book reality (anything published by Marvel)
Beyonder was greater than even Shooter's existence within comics,
and that existence ... is that of TOAA. 🙂

......................................................................................

Jim Shooter - creator/writer of Secret Wars/Beyonder
(while he was Editor in chief of Marvel)

Get's interviewed ... about the Beyonder.

......................................................................................

Marvel Age is an official Marvel title,
created to discuss Marvel stories with the writers themselves of said stories
and even other intricacies concerning Marvel comics.

......................................................................................

Jim Shooter himself describes Classic Beyonder to us:

Jim states:

1. Beyonder "is a Multi-verse."

2. Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."

3. Beyonder's discovery of our Universe ... (Marvel Multiverse)

.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...

.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "

swank

This is why Beyonder had to be retconned, (de-powered)
by the next Editor in Chief (Tom DeFalco) simply too much grander and power. [/B]

Though the Beyonder was outside of the Marvel Multiverse he was still from within the Omniverse, correct?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Though the Beyonder was outside of the Marvel Multiverse he was still from within the Omniverse, correct?

... I love mr m.
But I'll still disagree with all of it.
To me if it wasn't onpanel... Despite the writers intentions
it doesn't count

yes I understand who he was...
But it's like hulk being first done in grey then green then retconning it that he was always green... Then going back and saying it was mixed identities

Just cause they always meant green isn't what was shown on panel

intentions and interviews do not equal on panel evidence to me... Different viewpoints. :-) agrees to disagree

Originally posted by Omega Vision

Though the Beyonder was outside of the Marvel Multiverse
he was still from within the Omniverse, correct?

The Omniverse (all universes) in Beyonder's era was the Multiverse,
which as the same was all universes back them.

Actually by that panel
all adjcent universes to marvel would be the what ifs... Similar universes adjacent to ours but of slight differences

which is all part of te megaverse/omniverse which are not apart of those adjavent Universes...

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah friend,
he was completely separate from anything connected to the Marvelverse:

The Omniverse (all universes) in Beyonder's era was the Multiverse,
which as the same was all universes back them.

If you're arguing that Marvel's position was such back then I don't have a problem with that but at least since OHOTMU the position of Marvel has been that the Omniverse includes everything including the real world and all of fiction.

Again Marvel's position has probably changed on the matter.
shrug

Originally posted by rotiart

... I love mr m.
But I'll still disagree with all of it.
To me if it wasn't on panel... Despite the writers intentions
it doesn't count

Just cause they always meant green isn't what was shown on panel

intentions and interviews do not equal on panel evidence[/b] to me...

*** Shooter describing Beyonder on panel in the Secret Wars series ***

Which is right in line with how Shooter described Beyonder in the interview:

😮‍💨

I've said that beyonder is all of the megaverse
the megaverse being marvel
the multiverse even marvels would be a drop in the bucket that is the marvel company itself...
And he came to study the multiverse... Because it was the one thing that wasn't apart of him... So he Is the entire megaverse less our multiverse
:-P

hence why I put pr beyonder up there with nemese now

Originally posted by rotiart

Actually by that panel
all adjcent universes to marvel would be the what ifs...
Similar universes adjacent to ours but of slight differences

which is all part of te megaverse/omniverse which are not apart of those adjavent Universes...

Owen makes it clear "beyond all known existence"
All of Marvel was the Multiverse in 85' .. there was no extras.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

Okay fine but by its very definition (I know logic and comic books don't always go well together) an Omniverse would include everything (including DC, Looney Tunes, Disney, Star Wars, the real world, etc.) and anything outside it would be non-existent because existence and laying outside of the Omniverse would be contradictions.

If you're arguing that Marvel's position was such back then I don't have a problem with that but at least since OHOTMU the position of Marvel has been that the Omniverse includes everything including the real world and all of fiction.

Again Marvel's position has probably changed on the matter.

A writer did try to join that idea in their 2005 Handbooks,
but this idea was quickly crushed in the 06/07 and 08 Handbooks,
which clearly states,
that TOAA created the Omniverse. (obviously Marvel's omniverse since each company has its own)

Heck,
Wanda tore the Omniverse to pieces and re-built it with a thought:

We or you, wouldn't actually suggest
that Wanda tore DC, Looney Tunes, Disney, Star Wars, the real world, etc as well?

*** I also have ridiculous scanned proof of Marvel's Omniverse being depicted on panel.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I love ya too rot ... but 😐

*** Shooter describing Beyonder [b]on panel in the Secret Wars series ***

Which is right in line with how Shooter described Beyonder in the interview:

😮‍💨 [/B]

Rot do not argue with Mr. Masters for he is always right

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah good friend.

Owen makes it clear "beyond all known existence"
All of Marvel was the Multiverse in 85' .. there was no extras.

Actually, Marvel has its own Omniverse and it has nothing to do with any other company.

A writer did try to join that idea in their 2005 Handbooks,
but this idea was quickly crushed in the 06/07 and 08 Handbooks,
which clearly states,
that TOAA created the Omniverse. (obviously Marvel's omniverse since each company has its own)

Heck,
Wanda tore the Omniverse to pieces and re-built it with a thought:

We or you, wouldn't actually suggest
that Wanda tore DC, Looney Tunes, Disney, Star Wars, the real world, etc as well?

*** I also have ridiculous scanned proof of Marvel's Omniverse being depicted on panel.

Its a matter of semantics really. I don't think Marvel should be tossing around terms like that so cavalierly without regard for their literal meanings.

It doesn't really matter, it just irks me a bit.

Originally posted by rotiart

I've said that beyonder is all of the megaverse
the megaverse being marvel
the multiverse even marvels would be a drop in the bucket that is the marvel company itself...
And he came to study the multiverse...
Because it was the one thing that wasn't apart of him...

Marvel (officially since 06'😉 contains at-least two Megaverses that we know of within their Omniverse.

That aside, in Beyonder's classic era, there was only two realities,
the infinite Multiverse, and the Beyond Realm.
Simply put, the Beyond realm was everything beyond the infinite Multiverse.

Originally posted by rotiart

So he Is the entire megaverse less our multiverse

Originally posted by rotiart

hence why I put pr beyonder up there with nemese now

Originally posted by Omega Vision

I wouldn't suggest it, I would only suggest that Marvel's new "Omniverse" isn't an Omniverse at all since it doesn't encapsulate all possible reality, rather I'd call it a Super-Megaverse or something.

Its a matter of semantics really. I don't think Marvel should be tossing around terms like that so cavalierly without regard for their literal meanings.

In the Winter 2007 Bios ... TOAA CREATED the Omniverse.

The entity believed to be the Supreme being/Creator of the Omniverse"

.............................................................................................

On Panel ... coincidentally,

Brian protects the SAME exact definition/Omniverse above: (that TOAA CREATED)

"Reality ... Brian came to realize the size and breadth of Reality,
he learned of the Omniverse and its unending alternatives,
Alternative Realities ...
the Omniverse is the collection of All those possibilities.

........................................................................

In the 2008 questionnaires to the WRITERS of the Exiles,
the Omniverse is an Infinite amount of MultiverseS.

"The Omniverse ... There are infinite MULTIverseS inside it"

.............................................................................................

Coincidentally,

Marvel's Reality is ALSO an Infinite amount of MultiverseS:

"In the Countless MultiverseS you (Alex) alone are unique"

"So much Power in such a small mind ...

we could have Conquered the MultiverseS together"

.............................................................................................

The Marvel Omniverse
has not only been mentioned, referrenced and affected,
it's been litertally artistically depicted ... as in illustrated:

Many times, and here's just another example from 08'

..........................................................................

Exiles - (2008)

"Those lights we've been assuming was a star, just as we see from Earth,
they represent entire Dimensions.

I think that's a representation of the entire Omniverse,
we're looking at All Creation"

....................................................................

Or matrix/Merlyn showing us what he protects:

"The Omniverse"

..........................................................................

Or an alternate Reed packing tech that can wipe out the Omniverse:

"I offer the Omniverse"

***There's tons of more evidence I have scanned, but this should be enough.

Like I said....Always right.

See... Again we get into semantics and opinions about how to declare the existence of megaverse omniverse

and I've always felt that when you represent the beyonder saga as you do... It goes into the fact that shooter appears o be identifying the possibility of the marvel megaverse....

And owen speaking is just as credible as thanos calling himself god. Only the narration gives credence to fact. The other...
Despite the power of Owen is simply opinion... In fact
Owens hardly if ever been portrayed as all knowing... All powerful maybe...

In comparison Adam warlock tells us during the ig saga
that he has seen all possible outcomes with living tribunal and gave up the ig...

Power isn't knowledge althought knowledge is power if you peek at reed with the ultimate nullifier...

Even on your own panel evidence doesn't it say beyonder is a multiverse coming into the marvel universe? Not the marvel multiverse? Hence my comparisons of megaverse to multiverse...

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Like I said....Always right.

Cripes, I need a drink...

blowup