Silver Surfer vs Flash (Wally)

Browsing the thread, it seems there were a lot of stupid things said, and a few posters, unsurprisingly, agreeing with them. Like this, for example:

Originally posted by Enyalus
Surfer's fast enough to react to a CIS free Wally. He's fast enough to track a CIS free Wally.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Browsing the thread, it seems there were a lot of stupid things said, and a few posters, unsurprisingly, agreeing with them. Like this, for example:

What do you assume Wally's movement speed to be? And the surfer's? What about reaction times?

I don't consider Surfer to be anywhere near somebody like, say, Quicksilver in combat speed, and he has never been consistently or even somehow repeatedly been portrayed as having that level of actual close quarters combat speed.

Needless to say, he'd be a statue to Flash.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Browsing the thread, it seems there were a lot of stupid things said, and a few posters, unsurprisingly, agreeing with them. Like this, for example:

I'm curious what evidence exists to support the notion that Surfer has battle speed on par with Wally?

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm curious what evidence exists to support the notion that Surfer has battle speed on par with Wally?

How would you define battle speed? And how fast would the flash's be?

The speed at which SS can think, act, tap into his powers and coordenate their use is so far above quicksilver's, it's not even funny. He has close to zero cqc or h2h feats because he's a blaster, not a brawler, and he lives in outer space.

Originally posted by 753
How would you define battle speed?

Originally posted by Galan007
The zig-zag type of speed used when battling in close quarters on some type of planetoid.

Well, like I said he has almost no cqc showings because of his concept: fast flying blaster, not brawler, and the fact that he lives in space, but he does have these things

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4184/silversurfer198800908mj9.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/3690/silversurfer19880090910wh9.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7694/silversurferannual0508tc4.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9517/silversurfer198902115hj1.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/1935/silversurfer199003316ik9.jpg
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/5174/silversurfer198902418te5.jpg
http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/4607/silversurfer198902419zi3.jpg

There are some others that I'm trying to find.

As combat I understand the speed necessary to damage others while avoiding damage with the powerset one has. So combat speed is the speed at which one can do combat effectively regardless of how it is done. So, obviously, for the flash that means blitzing, maneuvering and punching. But for the SS it means thinking, blasting in one or all directions, raising forcefields, transmuting, opening portals, bullrushing, flying arround going intangible, etc. Making a grab for the IG from a light year away in what should be less than a second (the time it took thanos to throw a punch after having initiated the blow) shows he can coordinate and act while moving at absurd speeds.

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4062/theinfinitygauntlet0442nt1.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/113/theinfinitygauntlet0443pu8.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9909/theinfinitygauntlet0444le1.jpg

SS's reaction times are well within nanoseconds, flash's might be even smaller, but saying SS has the speed to fight the flash means he can tap into his powers and use them effectively within the timeframes of this battle, eg. by going intangible to avoid a blitz of IMPs while blowing up the battlefield.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/48/marvelcomicspresents001fk4.jpg

Flash migh have an agility and physical coordination advantage based on feats and even a reaction time advantage, but even if the SS was a totally uncoordinated clutz, which he isnt, with his thought activated powerset he could still take flash out without moving a limb just by controlling the board and using his powers intelligently.

Flash's initial reaction time advantage would only be usefull for an initial blitz before SS can react, but given his durabilty and own impressive reaction times, I dont think the flash can put him down before he has an oportunity to use his powers in both offensive and defensive forms.

SS has range, power output, versatility, durabilty, sensorial input and probably maximum speed advantages to take this.

Originally posted by 753
SS has range, power output, versatility, durabilty, sensorial input and probably maximum speed advantages to take this.

Originally posted by Galan007
So if you already have a preconceived notion that Surfer can beat Wally, then why even make the thread?

more or less we all have a notion of who we think wins a thread when we make one, don't we?

Originally posted by Galan007
So if you already have a preconceived notion that Surfer can beat Wally, then why even make the thread?

To debate - which is the point of this site - and to see how people would view the fight going. I became curious about it after so many people believed flash to be above SS, SM and Thor in a four way fight. Besides, if people can demonstrate that Wally would win a majority, I will have no problem with changing my mind. My notion of the outcome is based on what I have seen of the characters, so it's not really pre-conceived, it simply precedes the opening of this thread.

With a history as long as the Silver Surfer's, I think you can find a couple of things that could be considered super speed perception feats, but I don't think that indicates that he has them.

For instance, I'm pretty sure I could find an equal number of 'super speed' feats for the very obviously human-level Green Lanterns, even a couple that specifically mention that it only takes human level reflexes to navigate complicated 'zig zags' and what not through asteroid fields.

As for the thread, when both are operating at normal levels, the Surfer is going to win.

But if this is both of them operating at peak, as in their very best, that Wally - who owned the god damn Anti Monitor - has a very good chance of taking it.

Originally posted by Desaad

But if this is both of them operating at peak, as in their very best, that Wally - who owned the god damn Anti Monitor - has a very good chance of taking it.

when did he do that?

Originally posted by Desaad
With a history as long as the Silver Surfer's, I think you can find a couple of things that could be considered super speed perception feats, but I don't think that indicates that he has them.

For instance, I'm pretty sure I could find an equal number of 'super speed' feats for the very obviously human-level Green Lanterns, even a couple that specifically mention that it only takes human level reflexes to navigate complicated 'zig zags' and what not through asteroid fields.

But several of the ones I posted for him have specific timeframes that are completely impossible to achieve with human-like reactions and involve high end superspeed perceptions.

Originally posted by Desaad

For instance, I'm pretty sure I could find an equal number of 'super speed' feats for the very obviously human-level Green Lanterns, even a couple that specifically mention that it only takes human level reflexes to navigate complicated 'zig zags' and what not through asteroid fields.

Originally posted by Warlord
when did he do that?

Chained Lightning, I believe, was the arc. He went back in time an effort to save Barry Allen.

Originally posted by 753
But several of the ones I posted for him have specific timeframes that are completely impossible to achieve with human-like reactions and involve high end superspeed perceptions.

I don't really agree. I don't want to tear apart each individual showing you posted (in part because I acknowledge that one or two are legitimate), but just looking at the first example you posted -- that isn't combat speed. That's him rushing a bubble. There isn't any real finesse required there, just charging forward and scooping the girls up in his arms. I consider that to be a great TRAVEL speed feat, but he's essentially going in a straight line. Taking an example, again, I don't think a GL is generally considered to be a super speed opponent but Hal has outraced the outwardly expanding energy field of an atomic blast (In New Frontier, no less, which was one of the weaker portrayals of the GL power ring).

Originally posted by Warlord
at light speed?

If I looked? Very probably.

But there are enough of him doing complex turns within onrushing meteors, stuff like like that, that pretty much squashes the idea that that stuff is thought to be real combat super speed.

Again, there are bound to be a few examples for any character that's been around long enough, with enough appearances, but percentage wise I don't think it's really enough to warrant a classification of having combat super speed.

Originally posted by 753
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4184/silversurfer198800908mj9.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/3690/silversurfer19880090910wh9.jpg