Silver Surfer vs Flash (Wally)

Originally posted by Allankles
The Speedforce allows Flash to do things like race against instantaneous travel - I know ridiculous. The problem isn't SS top speed (which wouldn't matter to Flash honestly), it's his acceleration and reflex speed from a dead start, that's the problem, he's nowhere near speedster level in those departments.

I mean, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that can say that SS can blitz a guy like Thanos. If he's not expected to do that, then how is he supposed to react to arguably the fastest guy in comicdom?

This post is just largely false. SS reflex speed and acceleration from a dead start are just fine. he has hit light speed in fairly close quarters and has shown to react and perceive electronic signals, blitz multiple targets, process information at superspeeds, have prolonged superspeed combat etc. all legitmate superspeed feats

Whether or not SS would be able to blitz thanos is not a question of SS speed, but rather a question of SS character traits as well as thanos's own perceived speed (which their are many different opinions on).

Thanos has no speedster speed Naija. He's got superhuman speed probably on the level of the Hulk who can outrace vehicles, but he's not capable of outracing a bullet.

I didn't say SS has no superhuman acceleration from a dead start. I've said many times that SS has superhuman speed without the board (since the board is a vehicle, I'm looking at SS physically), however this speed is not on the level of a speedster.

Of course his board can generate speed in a straight line fairly quickly but what about SS' reactions?

I'm not talking about flying around in space, avoiding laser fire and blasting ships and the like, ships which are nowhere near as maneuverable as a speedster in close quarters.

Ships can move at FTL but they'd be sitting ducks for a speedster in close quarters. To me SS' speed is similar to that of a space fighter, only that his board is smaller and therefore more maneuverable.

Also, I have to question how reactive he is in close quarters (the forum battlefield distance is very little room for Wally). He doesn't seem very reactive given how he normally fights.

Originally posted by Naija boy
has shown to react and perceive electronic signals

Originally posted by Allankles
Thanos has no speedster speed Naija. He's got superhuman speed probably on the level of the Hulk who can outrace vehicles, but he's not capable of outracing a bullet.

I didn't say SS has no superhuman acceleration from a dead start. I've said many times that SS has superhuman speed without the board (since the board is a vehicle, I'm looking at SS physically), however this speed is not on the level of a speedster.

Of course his board can generate speed in a straight line fairly quickly but what about SS' reactions?

I'm not talking about flying around in space, avoiding laser fire and blasting ships and the like, ships which are nowhere near as maneuverable as a speedster in close quarters.

Ships can move at FTL but they'd be sitting ducks for a speedster in close quarters. To me SS' speed is similar to that of a space fighter, only that his board is smaller and therefore more maneuverable.

I dont think thanos has speedster level overall speed . However there is a large body of posters that consider his reaction speed specifically good enough to counter blitzes and such. Thats what i was saying. Thats tangential to this discussion however

SS physical reactions,perceptions and processing speed have shown to be light speed+. anybody who can react -perceive, physically react to and track and electronic signal moving at near light speed is demonstrating superspeed in every sense of the word. SS may not be able to propel himself to superhuman speeds without his board, but he has shown that his perceptions, mental processing speed, reactions, and acual bodily movement in combat are great enough to cordinate complex manoevres while he is being propelled at such high speed levels.

SS on his board is miles apart from a ship....and mean milessss. The levels of actual bodily movement and reactions involved are astronomically different. Therefore so is the manoevrability. Moreover as his feats show his perception and processing speed is astronimcally higher than a person who is simply piloting some sort of spaceship.

Originally posted by Philosophía
I love how you keep clinging to this, until I, or somebody else, gets bored and destroys you on it.

*yawn*

Originally posted by Naija boy
I dont think thanos has speedster level overall speed . However there is a large body of posters that consider his reaction speed specifically good enough to counter blitzes and such. Thats what i was saying. Thats tangential to this discussion however

SS physical reactions,perceptions and processing speed have shown to be light speed+. anybody who can react -perceive, physically react to and track and electronic signal moving at near light speed is demonstrating superspeed in every sense of the word. SS may not be able to propel himself to superhuman speeds without his board, but he has shown that his perceptions, mental processing speed, reactions, and acual bodily movement in combat are great enough to cordinate complex manoevres while he is being propelled at such high speed levels.

SS on his board is miles apart from a ship....and mean milessss. The levels of actual bodily movement and reactions involved are astronomically different. Therefore so is the manoevrability. Moreover as his feats show his perception and processing speed is astronimcally higher than a person who is simply piloting some sort of spaceship.

Well we agree that he has super speed, we just don't agree that he's a speedster.

His board can attain speedster level speeds, but I look at it like a separate entity, a vehicle. To give an analogy Lobo has superhuman speed but just because his bike (which is obviously less maneuverable than SS' board) can hit FTL speeds in moments doesn't mean he's a speedster.

More in relation to this fight, I can certainly see an argument for SS avoiding WW's blitz by generating some kind of energy field around himself to repel Wally, but I don't see SS speed, based on how he's used it (or not used it) against his foes, being a factor. Wally is both too fast and maneuverable for SS' to avoid him with his own speed alone.

Originally posted by Allankles
Well we agree that he has super speed, we just don't agree that he's a speedster.

His board can attain speedster level speeds, but I look at it like a separate entity, a vehicle. To give an analogy Lobo has superhuman speed but just because his bike (which is obviously less maneuverable than SS' board) can hit FTL speeds in moments doesn't mean he's a speedster.

More in relation to this fight, I can certainly see an argument for SS avoiding WW's blitz by generating some kind of energy field around himself to repel Wally, but I don't see SS speed, based on how he's used it (or not used it) against his foes, being a factor. Wally is both too fast and maneuverable for SS' to avoid him with his own speed alone.

I understand your lobo analogy but as uve said lobo isnt as manoevrable as SS with his board. Moreover i accept and even mentioned that SS board is needed for him to achieve speedster levels of propulsion. However he has other necessary factors (perception, bodily reaction, mental processing etc) which he has displayed that facilitate his level of manoevrability at such speed with his board. I reiterate, its not just cuz his board can hit light speed in moments that i consider him to have an overall high level of supersped.

SS mental speed is certainly good enough to generate a forcefield or something similar in order to protect him during the battle, and that would be my preferred tactic of course. However when SS speed is being emphasized his overall speed is top notch as his feats show and ur chracterization of it is innacurate as are ur analogies comparing him with a ship or with lobo on his bike.

I'm not going to argue that Surfer isn't fast (i know he is).

But is anyone actually trying to argue that he's able to match a fast Wally?

Originally posted by Allankles
The Speedforce allows Flash to do things like race against instantaneous travel - I know ridiculous. The problem isn't SS top speed (which wouldn't matter to Flash honestly), it's his acceleration and reflex speed from a dead start, that's the problem, he's nowhere near speedster level in those departments.

I mean, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that can say that SS can blitz a guy like Thanos. If he's not expected to do that, then how is he supposed to react to arguably the fastest guy in comicdom?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm not going to argue that Surfer isn't fast (i know he is).

But is anyone actually trying to argue that he's able to match a fast Wally?

not me at least.

Originally posted by Allankles
Thanos has no speedster speed Naija. He's got superhuman speed probably on the level of the Hulk who can outrace vehicles, but he's not capable of outracing a bullet.

I didn't say SS has no superhuman acceleration from a dead start. I've said many times that SS has superhuman speed without the board (since the board is a vehicle, I'm looking at SS physically), however this speed is not on the level of a speedster.

Of course his board can generate speed in a straight line fairly quickly but what about SS' reactions?

I'm not talking about flying around in space, avoiding laser fire and blasting ships and the like, ships which are nowhere near as maneuverable as a speedster in close quarters.

Ships can move at FTL but they'd be sitting ducks for a speedster in close quarters. To me SS' speed is similar to that of a space fighter, only that his board is smaller and therefore more maneuverable.

Also, I have to question how reactive he is in close quarters (the forum battlefield distance is very little room for Wally). He doesn't seem very reactive given how he normally fights.

Originally posted by 753
he has a lot more than linear travel feats and he doenst actually need the board, it only saves his energy, but he is entirely capable of warp speed travel on his own. the board is an extension of his being too.

Lets be fair

Flash had to speed steal or channel energy from an entire planet of for him to get faster then instantaneous travel. The closest hes gotten to instantaneous travel is his reactions his travel speed is not that fast imo.

Death is supposed to be only lightspeed but this may be a retcon so Wally and Supes can baby shake death like its nothing in terms of speed.

Originally posted by SasuOna
Lets be fair

Flash had to speed steal or channel energy from an entire planet of for him to get faster then instantaneous travel. The closest hes gotten to instantaneous travel is his reactions his travel speed is not that fast imo.

Death is supposed to be only lightspeed but this may be a retcon so Wally and Supes can baby shake death like its nothing in terms of speed.

Problem with Flash's movement is sometimes he needs to channel while other times he just completely outpaces and performs on the spot top speed. I tend to go with him being able to do it on his own because Wally has always had the greatest mastery of any Flash over speedforce and his fights with Zoom tend to have him as the underdog but even then Zoom generally considers Flash to be his superior or at least the one with greater potential or he would never have bothered "testing" Flash. Also Black Racer was much better than FTL IIRC but feel free to correct me