Lightspeed in the DBZverse

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
But if their battle speed is same with their travel speed (in this case, hypersonic which is nowhere near 300 times speed of light), then King Kai who can trace a 300 times lightspeed would trace it with no problem.

No, because that's assuming vector changes don't affect the difficulty of tracing. Fast or not, a strait line is a strait line. I can track things in a strait line far easier than I could in a chaotic 3-d situation.

Even though it's not as fast as 300 times lightspeed, it's still somewhere near 300 times lightspeed.

Not at all. We don't know what makes difficulty in tracking. Lines are 100% predictable. Pure speed may have very little effect on trackability except at massive levels, while unpredictable and multi-vector speed may throw him off at far far lower speeds, because every time there's a change in direction he has to reevaluate their whole course.

Originally posted by Q99

No, because that's assuming vector changes don't affect the difficulty of tracing. Fast or not, a strait line is a strait line. I can track things in a strait line far easier than I could in a chaotic 3-d situation.

Not at all. We don't know what makes difficulty in tracking. Lines are 100% predictable. Pure speed may have very little effect on trackability except at massive levels, while unpredictable and multi-vector speed may throw him off at far far lower speeds, because every time there's a change in direction he has to reevaluate their whole course. [/B]

Then could you explain about when King Kai said that he had never encountered a speed like that? You want to say that you can see a missile flies but you can't see how two tigers fight each other? Hypersonic and 300 times speed of light has a very big difference. Fact.

It's generally common that in anime, battle speed is faster than travel speed even though it's not all of them. Example, Saint Seiya need to run from temple to temple when they want to save Athena while we all know how fast they are in battle.

The only things that are FTL in DBZ are:

- Spaceships
- Instant Transmission/Shunkan Idou (but keep in mind this is teleportation, not actual speed, and will not help against an opponent who is actually faster. For example Goku tried to use it in battle against Cell who didn't have it at that point but Cell was still winning)
- Kaioshin teleportation (another teleportation technique)

End of manga DBZ characters still take several minutes to fly to another point on the earth's surface. Goku was able to track Yakon via air displacement, if they were anywhere close to lightspeed that would have been useless.

There is no evidence for lightspeed/FTL DBZ characters whatsoever. One of the American dubs said Raditz was FTL but that was a mistake as that line was not present in the original. There is a photoshopped scan floating around on the internet where Burter says he's faster than light but again that is false as the original line has him merely saying he's the fastest in the universe (and even he knows that isn't true as Frieza was faster than him). Gotenks flew around the earth several times but he had 29 minutes to do so (as the fusion lasts 30 minutes and at the end Piccolo said he only had 1 minute remaining). In that 1 minute he spent most of it flying to Buu's house, so even if you assume it was on the exact opposite side of the planet that's still not even 1% of lightspeed.

Originally posted by Q99

No, because that's assuming vector changes don't affect the difficulty of tracing. Fast or not, a strait line is a strait line. I can track things in a strait line far easier than I could in a chaotic 3-d situation.[/B]

So you can see things movin' at the speed of light.

Originally posted by Q99
Not at all. We don't know what makes difficulty in tracking.[/B]

We do...speed. King Kai said it. It was hard for him to keep up with it because it was so fast.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
The only things that are FTL in DBZ are:

- Spaceships
- Instant Transmission/Shunkan Idou (but keep in mind this is teleportation, not actual speed, and will not help against an opponent who is actually faster. For example Goku tried to use it in battle against Cell who didn't have it at that point but Cell was still winning)
- Kaioshin teleportation (another teleportation technique)

End of manga DBZ characters still take several minutes to fly to another point on the earth's surface. Goku was able to track Yakon via air displacement, if they were anywhere close to lightspeed that would have been useless.

There is no evidence for lightspeed/FTL DBZ characters whatsoever. One of the American dubs said Raditz was FTL but that was a mistake as that line was not present in the original. There is a photoshopped scan floating around on the internet where Burter says he's faster than light but again that is false as the original line has him merely saying he's the fastest in the universe (and even he knows that isn't true as Frieza was faster than him). Gotenks flew around the earth several times but he had 29 minutes to do so (as the fusion lasts 30 minutes and at the end Piccolo said he only had 1 minute remaining). In that 1 minute he spent most of it flying to Buu's house, so even if you assume it was on the exact opposite side of the planet that's still not even 1% of lightspeed.

So, are we to discredit other showings of pretty fair evidence, based on inconsistent showings of power becuase there is alot of that in DB and DBZ?

What showings are you talking about? Don't tell me you're bringing up the "King Kai couldn't track Goku and Frieza fighting" canard, since that never happened in the manga.

But how does that contradict anything that happened in the manga? Are we now goin' to say that 'everything' that happened in the anime that wasn't shown or said in the manga is impossible? I mean, one media does allow more plot detail to be implemented far easier than the other. It wasn't like Toriyama had nothin' to do with the anime. I remember even readin' an article in Shonen Jump were it was said there were many things he forgot to explain in the manga that he decided should be put in the anime, like Launches appearance at the end of DBZ for example among other things I can't remember.

There are some things worth disputin' when comparin' the 2 medias, but this? And if we are goin' to go by simple inconsistencies, there's alot of stuff said around here that needs to go out the window.

Originally posted by No End N Site
So you can see things movin' at the speed of light.

Yeah, cause light moves at the speed of light. 😬

Originally posted by No End N Site
We do...speed. King Kai said it. It was hard for him to keep up with it because it was so fast.

So, are we to discredit other showings of pretty fair evidence, based on inconsistent showings of power becuase there is alot of that in DB and DBZ?

No. Endless Mike is the most correct one in the thread. No one fights or moves at the speed of light or even significant percentages of C, except when Gotenks flew around the Earth 9 times.

Wait a minute....

That's inconsistancy.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah, cause light moves at the speed of light. 😬

iorilmaoSo if someone punched you at the speed of light, you could see it commin'? Clearly you can, clearly.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No. Endless Mike is the most correct one in the thread. No one fights or moves at the speed of light or even significant percentages of C, except when Gotenks flew around the Earth 9 times.

Wait a minute....

That's inconsistancy.

I'm havin a hard time findin' truth in any stance or argument. It seems to me that this is all assumption and pickin' a choosin' what we want to be canon and what's not. None of us are Akira Toriyama, here. And I don't ever remember him sayin' that the anime was totally inadmissible and failed top even closely resemble his original work.

Originally posted by No End N Site
iorilmaoSo if someone punched you at the speed of light, you could see it commin'? Clearly you can, clearly.

that person would be destroyed by protons, hydrogen atoms, not to mention their body being torn to shreds by the velocity. In fact, they might just burst into a very brilliant bright light before they reached C. Also, consider that C is impossible, at a macroscopic level, to reach.

And, no, no one could see anything coming at them, if it were traveling at the speed of light...cause the person traveling at the speed of light would not get there before the light reflecting off their person, got there.

Originally posted by No End N Site
I'm havin a hard time findin' truth in any stance or argument. It seems to me that this is all assumption and pickin' a choosin' what we want to be canon and what's not. None of us are Akira Toriyama, here. And I don't ever remember him sayin' that the anime was totally inadmissible and failed top even closely resemble his original work.

The Gotenks speed feat is the fastest one in the series. This bars teleportation and instant transmission, of course. But out right speed, we only have proof of one being anything remotely close to C and that was Gotenks.

Originally posted by dadudemon
that person would be destroyed by protons, hydrogen atoms, not to mention their body being torn to shreds by the velocity. In fact, they might just burst into a very brilliant bright light before they reached C. Also, consider that C is impossible, at a macroscopic level, to reach.

And, no, no one could see anything coming at them, if it were traveling at the speed of light...cause the person traveling at the speed of light would not get there before the light reflecting off their person, got there.

Ga'dammit, you know what I mean. The act is impossible in more ways than one.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The Gotenks speed feat is the fastest one in the series. This bars teleportation and instant transmission, of course. But out right speed, we only have proof of one being anything remotely close to C and that was Gotenks.

0. Gotenks really wasn't trying

1. That was SS1 Gotenks, he's SS3 now.

2. Mystic Gohan is faster than SS3 Gotenks.

3. Super Buu is faster than Gohan.

4. Vegito is faster than Super Buu.

5. Super Vegito is faster than regular Vegito.

I don't think it's right to just go by showings alone to determine something like this. I should also note that these power jumps and transformations are clearly not minuscule in size. These character's power levels are 'very' far from each other.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Ga'dammit, you know what I mean. The act is impossible in more ways than one.

😆 😆 😆 😆

Originally posted by No End N Site
0. Gotenks really wasn't trying

1. That was SS1 Gotenks, he's SS3 now.

2. Mystic Gohan is faster than SS3 Gotenks.

3. Super Buu is faster than Gohan.

4. Vegito is faster than Super Buu.

5. Super Vegito is faster than regular Vegito.

I don't think it's right to just go by showings alone to determine something like this.

0. You have to prove that. You have to also prove that he could have flown faster if he wanted. Since you can't prove it, either way, this point can and will be thrown out as simply speculation.

1. Prove that that made him faster.

2. Prove that Mystic Gohan is Faster.

3. There's lots of different versions of Super Buu. Which version? Because, most versions are slower than Mystic Gohan.

4. Yup.

5. Prolly.

So what have you proven beyond the obvious? Nothing yet.

P.S. I still love you.

Originally posted by dadudemon

0. You have to prove that. You have to also prove that he could have flown faster if he wanted. Since you can't prove it, either way, this point can and will be thrown out as simply speculation.

1. Prove that that made him faster.

2. Prove that Mystic Gohan is Faster.

3. There's lots of different versions of Super Buu. Which version? Because, most versions are slower than Mystic Gohan.

4. Yup.

5. Prolly.

So what have you proven beyond the obvious? Nothing yet.

P.S. I still love you.

0. Based on the fact he was just lallygagging and even took a nap.

1. I don't feel like provin' that right now, but you know that SS3 is better in every way then the previous forms by miles. I shouldn't have to prove that to someone who watches and reads DBZ.

2. Gotenks Buu had the power of Gotenks, Piccolo, and Super Buu combined and all though Super Buu was more powerful, Gohan wasn't a complete peon.

3. Gotenks Buu

I'm just a tad bit to lazy to prove things to you I know damn well you already know. I mean hell, Master Roshi in DB is already faster than sound by several times. Multiply that by like a quadrillion to get just Cell's speed.

Originally posted by No End N Site
0. Based on the fact he was just lallygagging and even took a nap.

1. I don't feel like provin' that right now, but you know that SS3 is better in every way then the previous forms by miles. I shouldn't have to prove that to someone who watches and reads DBZ.

2. Gotenks Buu had the power of Gotenks, Piccolo, and Super Buu combined and all though Super Buu was more powerful, Gohan wasn't a complete peon.

3. Gotenks Buu

I'm just a tad bit to lazy to prove things to you I know damn well you already know. I mean hell, Master Roshi in DB is already faster than sound by several times. Multiply that by like a quadrillion to get just Cell's speed.

Ditto. Someone with more power level is obviously faster, more durable, more powerful.

Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
Ditto. Someone with more power level is obviously faster, more durable, more powerful.

Trunks would like a word with you.

Originally posted by No End N Site
0. Based on the fact he was just lallygagging and even took a nap.

Non sequitor. You need to prove that he could have gone faster by:

1. Giving an example of Gotenks or another character saying he could have gone faster.

2. Gotenks saying he was taking it easy while flying.

3. A subsequent feat that has Gotenks going faster.

None of those exist. Therefore, you cannot logically prove that he wasn't trying.

Originally posted by No End N Site
1. I don't feel like provin' that right now, but you know that SS3 is better in every way then the previous forms by miles. I shouldn't have to prove that to someone who watches and reads DBZ.

It was never said that SSJ3 was better in every way compared to the previous forms. In fact, it most certainly is NOT better in every way.

I do not disagree that it is stronger, faster, more energy, etc. But, my point is, it's not stated.

Originally posted by No End N Site
2. Gotenks Buu had the power of Gotenks, Piccolo, and Super Buu combined and all though Super Buu was more powerful, Gohan wasn't a complete peon.

Nah, I'd say that that version of Buu was kicking Gohan's ass pretty thoroughly.

Originally posted by No End N Site
3. Gotenks Buu

I'm just a tad bit to lazy to prove things to you I know damn well you already know. I mean hell, Master Roshi in DB is already faster than sound by several times. Multiply that by like a quadrillion to get just Cell's speed.

Damn well, man. DAMN WELL!

Master Roshi is stronger that Broli. 😄

Originally posted by dadudemon
Non sequitor. You need to prove that he could have gone faster by:

1. Giving an example of Gotenks or another character saying he could have gone faster.

2. Gotenks saying he was taking it easy while flying.

3. A subsequent feat that has Gotenks going faster.

None of those exist. Therefore, you cannot logically prove that he wasn't trying.

Maybe I would have to do all that crazy strenuous shit to satisfy you but any normal guy who was readin' or watchin' could tell he was just an arrogant kid who was playin' around. If he was really tryin' he woulda went SS3. He didn't even take Buu seriously. Gotenks went on a stroll.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It was never said that SSJ3 was better in every way compared to the previous forms. In fact, it most certainly is NOT better in every way.

I do not disagree that it is stronger, faster, more energy, etc. But, my point is, it's not stated.

What way is SS 1 and 2 better than SS3? I am very curious to see.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nah, I'd say that that version of Buu was kicking Gohan's ass pretty thoroughly.

The same way Vegito kicked Buu ass? I would say it was a 'struggle' unlike any Gohan has ever faced, but it wasn't 0 to 100 in Buu's favor.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Damn well, man. DAMN WELL!

Master Roshi is stronger that Broli. 😄

You know DAMN WELL! that Roshi isn't stronger than Broly. Stop pissin' in my pockets and tellin' me it's rain.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Trunks would like a word with you.

OK, I miss this one. Even though it's actually a form that gives Trunks more brute force than speed.

And how does it still taking him a minute to get to Buu's house correlate into everything? There is no reason to assuming he was going slower when flying eagerly to fight Buu. ANd he still left Piccolo in the dust like he was nothing.

Originally posted by No End N Site
What way is SS 1 and 2 better than SS3? I am very curious to see.

All the SSJ talk reminds me of Super Kaioken attack in the otherworld tourney.

Didn't Goku have to race to the Grand Kai's planet, but Grand Kai was much faster than all of them? Someone find that clip...

Not canon, filler.