Gamora vs. Wolverine

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Um. As compared to your argument:

"Fight wasn't legit cuz Ronan has to fight like I want him to."

"Dude, characters fight a certain way all the time. It is completely within Ronan's character to fight this way thru all his previous showings. If anything, he fought better than he ever has. This is a high showing for him."

"But it's still irrelevant cuz he let her goez!!"

"Can you prove it?"

"No! But neither can you so the fight is invalid, nyahnyahnyah"

"....."

And with regards to the Thor vs Wolverine fight: Thor based on his personality and thru the years he has fought and his countless showings has ALWAYS shown to hold back against mortals. Especially against friends. And this time it's a FRIEND he knows is being enchanted.

But sure. Let's ignore all that. Cuz, well. He said in his narration that those were his "fiercest and finest blows". Wheee!! Thor was fighting at his best here and was giving it all he's got!!! /rollseyes

There aren't any more "holes and inconsistencies" that exist in this fight that doesn't exist in more than 99.99999% of other comic fights out there. Based on your flawed logic, we should just disqualify every fight in comic history if we just find minor flaws in tactical logic when we have the gift of hindsight to second guess everything.

You sir, are hopeless.

Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
Of course Thor could have ended it anytime - it's called using his powers. If he just uses Melee, he will eventually die.

Surely this is worthy of an /endthread. But not nearly as close as this:

Originally posted by The Real Wolvie
You know, as someone already mentioned - [Wolverine] may actually be a master of all the martial arts in the universe considering he is a reincarnating spirit that has been doing it for thousands of years.

/endthread

zomfg

this thread is a fun read 🙂

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Um. As compared to your argument:

"Fight wasn't legit cuz Ronan has to fight like I want him to."

"Dude, characters fight a certain way all the time. It is completely within Ronan's character to fight this way thru all his previous showings. If anything, he fought better than he ever has. This is a high showing for him."

"But it's still irrelevant cuz he let her goez!!"

"Can you prove it?"

"No! But neither can you so the fight is invalid, nyahnyahnyah"

"....."

And with regards to the Thor vs Wolverine fight: Thor based on his personality and thru the years he has fought and his countless showings has ALWAYS shown to hold back against mortals. Especially against friends. And this time it's a FRIEND he knows is being enchanted.

But sure. Let's ignore all that. Cuz, well. He said in his narration that those were his "fiercest and finest blows". Wheee!! Thor was fighting at his best here and was giving it all he's got!!! /rollseyes

There aren't any more "holes and inconsistencies" that exist in this fight that doesn't exist in more than 99.99999% of other comic fights out there. Based on your flawed logic, we should just disqualify every fight in comic history if we just find minor flaws in tactical logic when we have the gift of hindsight to second guess everything.

You sir, are hopeless.

No one has said the Ronan fight isn't legit, just that it isn't proof of what you would like it to be. The feat is evidence that Gamora can effectively fight Ronan when he is essentially limited to melee combat and energy blasts. Cool, no problem, I don't think anyone has an issue with that. The problem lies in the assertion that Gamora can compete with Ronan going "all out." She can't. You'd like to reap all the benefits of Ronan's reputation to bolster Gamora's, and at the same time ignore all the past accomplishments that gave Ronan that very reputation. That's not how this works. Actions speak louder than words, and regardless of what Ronan may have said, he never displayed the full scope of his powers as they have been represented in the past... and the few times he did anything of note he immediately had total control of the fight (which he would promptly forfeit). Stop pretending the feat is more than it actually is. What it is is proof that Gamora can melee Ronan, and that isn't something that come remotely close to suggesting she could take the a majority against Wolverine. No one is questioning the validity of the feat, just what the feat is actually evidence of... but for some reason you guys can't tell the difference between a low showing for Ronan and a high showing for Gamora.

Now, I imagine trying to build up an argument when you have zero evidence that supports your opinion must be frustrating and leaves you with no option other than clutching to every "feat" for dear life and pretending it is somehow relevant. In the future I would suggest taking the side in the argument that can be supported with facts and evidence, and not the wet dreams of fanboys and the notion that everything in space is somehow superior.

It doesn't disqualify every fight in comic history, just the absurdly slanted and mismanaged ones. Hulk has beaten Thor like eight times. No one reads those comics and says "Holy shit, Hulk can beat Thor!" No, they read those comics and say "Bullshit if Thor didn't fight like a complete asshat, this would be non-fight rage stomp in his favour." It's the same for Gamora vs Ronan. It is well within the scope of Ronan's powers to literally end the fight in an instant. Obviously it suits your argument to pretend he can't because you are working for the side that is so starved for anything even resembling feats that shoulder checking Ronan is not only considered a speed feat, but a significant one. Sad.

Also Wolverine and Thor aren't friends. They have barely had any interaction at all with one another at all, even saying they are acquaintances would be little strong.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No one has said the Ronan fight isn't legit

Originally posted by jinzin

I'm arguing the fight is invalid

/endthread

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
/endthread

Well... damn...

🙁

It is an invalid representation of claims you guys are making. Maybe thats what he meant? 😮

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Well... damn...

🙁

It is an invalid representation of claims you guys are making. Maybe thats what he meant? 😮

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I never said she was "Ronan-level" again, pls indicate where I specifically said that.

It showed that her level of skill/physicality was sufficient enough to neutralize Ronan's power output/versatility. It also showcased a lot of her new abilities. This is why the feat is very important and this is why you're trying to invalidate it by claiming that "Ronan didn't fight effectively".

Only it wasn't enough to neutralize Ronan's power output/versatility. Gamora never did anything to counter any of Ronan's powers, he simply stopped using them. Every time Ronan did something even remotely out of the box, he has a clear and distinctive advantage, he just never capitalized on any of these advantages. Instead, he would immediately forfeit the upper hand and allowing the scales to be reset and go back to fighting largely with melee and energy blasts. Gamora didn't hold her own against Ronan because of her skills or powerset, she held her own because he was written down so that she could stand a chance. Ronan jobbed to Gamora, anyone familiar with either character should be able to see that pretty clearly. It was a low feat for Ronan, not a high feat for Gamora. Not sure why you guys have such a hard time making that distinction.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Only it wasn't enough to neutralize Ronan's power output/versatility. Gamora never did anything to counter any of Ronan's powers, he simply stopped using them. Every time Ronan did something even remotely out of the box, he has a clear and distinctive advantage, he just never capitalized on any of these advantages. Instead, he would immediately forfeit the upper hand and allowing the scales to be reset and go back to fighting largely with melee and energy blasts. Gamora didn't hold her own against Ronan because of her skills or powerset, she held her own because he was written down so that she could stand a chance. Ronan jobbed to Gamora, anyone familiar with either character should be able to see that pretty clearly. It was a low feat for Ronan, not a high feat for Gamora. Not sure why you guys have such a hard time making that distinction.

Because Ronan has been written to fight this way a lot of times in his career? This isn't jobbing, by forum rules it is called CIS. Clear and VERY important distinction here. The difference is that one diminishes the feat for both sides and the other does not.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Only it wasn't enough to neutralize Ronan's power output/versatility. Gamora never did anything to counter any of Ronan's powers, he simply stopped using them. Every time Ronan did something even remotely out of the box, he has a clear and distinctive advantage, he just never capitalized on any of these advantages. Instead, he would immediately forfeit the upper hand and allowing the scales to be reset and go back to fighting largely with melee and energy blasts. Gamora didn't hold her own against Ronan because of her skills or powerset, she held her own because he was written down so that she could stand a chance. Ronan jobbed to Gamora, anyone familiar with either character should be able to see that pretty clearly. It was a low feat for Ronan, not a high feat for Gamora. Not sure why you guys have such a hard time making that distinction.

Gamora didn't use a single pressure point and waited to use Godslayer until the very end (right before the stalemate). By your strained logic, Gamora wasn't fighting effectively and the fight doesn't count. And Ronan got it easy. And it's a low feat for Gamora and a high feat for Ronan. And Wolverine still loses.

Funny thing, is, I agree with you in a way. We should not generalize and do ABC logic by classifying Gamora as equal to Ronan due to the fight, instead we break it down by feats while considering context.

But what I think we disagree on is the relevance of the feat at hand.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Because Ronan has been written to fight this way a lot of times in his career? This isn't jobbing, by forum rules it is called CIS. Clear and VERY important distinction here. The difference is that one diminishes the feat for both sides and the other does not.

CIS is a power limitation that steams form the personality of a character or an individually character trait. Silver Surfer holding back because he doesn't want to do harm, or Rhino just being too stupid to fight effectively. Neither of those apply to Ronan. He didn't use his powers effectively because if he had he would have won almost instantly, hence, jobbing.

But I think the difference between CIS and jobbing may be largely semantics honestly.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
We don't have an ulterior motive we're desperately trying to hide and trying to save face for a wholly different character that has nothing to do with how upgraded Gamora took on Ronan evenly.

Gamora didn't use a single pressure point and waited to use Godslayer until the very end (right before the stalemate). By your strained logic, Gamora wasn't fighting effectively and the fight doesn't count. And Ronan got it easy. And it's a low feat for Gamora and a high feat for Ronan. And Wolverine still loses.

Ronan wears armor, Gamora has said she can't get of pressure points on a skilled opponent during the actual flow of combat, and the usefulness of Godslayer is entirely theoretical, the only thing it has done is try to cut Thanos and break (off panel no less).

Still, regardless of legitimacy of the fight and what it is an accurate representation, nothing that occurred suggest that Gamora is a match for Wolverine. I'm really not sure why it has become a linchpin of your argument.

^ What exactly is Thing's rocky exterior? Gamora has stated she can't use pressure points on skilled opponents? What? Godslayer is not theoretical. It's the exact proximate cause that led to the stalemate. Despite ignoring that, would you honestly suggest that Ronan would have just as easy a time against a Godslayer-less Gamora than he would a Godslayer Gamora? lolwut?

It's not the linchpin. Take away the Ronan fight and Gamora still wins. It just becomes much more obvious when you're dealing with a Gamora who's that much more upgraded. Of course, in your mind, you somehow feel like you could erase Gamora's figure and draw in Wolverine and act like the fight would go exactly the same. Powerful imagination, right there.

This thread is epic win.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ What exactly is Thing's rocky exterior? Gamora has stated she can't use pressure points on skilled opponents? What? Godslayer is not theoretical. It's the exact proximate cause that led to the stalemate. Despite ignoring that, would you honestly suggest that Ronan would have just as easy a time against a Godslayer-less Gamora than he would a Godslayer Gamora? lolwut?

It's not the linchpin. Take away the Ronan fight and Gamora still wins. It just becomes much more obvious when you're dealing with a Gamora who's that much more upgraded. Of course, in your mind, you somehow feel like you could erase Gamora's figure and draw in Wolverine and act like the fight would go exactly the same. Powerful imagination, right there.

Things rocky exterior is just that, the exterior part of his body. Part of his body being the key point here. Obviously Thing's rocky hide much more durable that a human's body but it is still part of the body, which allows for the existence of pressure points, Ronan's armor is external padding that is completely separate from his being. There are no pressure points on Ronan's armor. I'm not sure why that even needed to be pointed out.

You just brought up the Thing example, and you don't remember her saying she wouldn't be able to get passed his defenses and use a pressure point on him during the flow of a real fight? Really?

The only thing of note God Slayer has ever done is break on Thanos' skin off panel. Any thoughts you have on the abilities or effectiveness of God Slayer are completely theoretical because it hasn't done anything. It hasn't shown the ability to kill "gods," it hasn't shown the ability to bypass beings high end durability, what it can does is entirely theoretical because it hasn't done anything yet. Now obviously, you are comfortable making statements without any evidence to back your claim, but I'm not. I'm not going to say God Slayer would tip the scales of battle until I see what it does.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
CIS is a power limitation that steams form the personality of a character or an individually character trait. Silver Surfer holding back because he doesn't want to do harm, or Rhino just being too stupid to fight effectively. Neither of those apply to Ronan. He didn't use his powers effectively because if he had he would have won almost instantly, hence, jobbing.

But I think the difference between CIS and jobbing may be largely semantics honestly.

Let me take an except from the rules:

At times, for the sake of the plot, characters that are immensely more powerful than their opponent will "job" to carry on the plot of the story, even though the characters powers and history would clearly show that they are more than capable of destroying their opponent. For this reason we have a No PIS Rule. This rule prohibits the use of such instances of PIS from being used as evidence in debates.

The key word there is "powers AND history".

Historically speaking, Ronan has been known to fight that way. In fact, throughout the arc he was shown consistently fighting that way.

It is CIS at BEST with regards to your argument, pure and simple. Heck, one CANNOT prove that Ronan would manage to decisively STOP Gamora even with the use of his powers as he already managed to tag her a few times and she kept coming.

If you're going to adopt Jin's position that he NEEDED to fly and bomb her from a distance to make the fight valid, then you just stop right there and reread over 10+ pages of debate before letting me retype everything....

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Things rocky exterior is just that, the exterior part of his body. Part of his body being the key point here. Obviously Thing's rocky hide much more durable that a human's body but it is still part of the body, which allows for the existence of pressure points, Ronan's armor is external padding that is completely separate from his being. There are no pressure points on Ronan's armor. I'm not sure why that even needed to be pointed out.

You just brought up the Thing example, and you don't remember her saying she wouldn't be able to get passed his defenses and use a pressure point on him during the flow of a real fight? Really?

The only thing of note God Slayer has ever done is break on Thanos' skin off panel. Any thoughts you have on the abilities or effectiveness of God Slayer are completely theoretical because it hasn't done anything. It hasn't shown the ability to kill "gods," it hasn't shown the ability to bypass beings high end durability, what it can does is entirely theoretical because it hasn't done anything yet. Now obviously, you are comfortable making statements without any evidence to back your claim, but I'm not. I'm not going to say God Slayer would tip the scales of battle until I see what it does.

Clearly Gamora using pressure points on a far stronger, faster, more skilled and more durable opponent like Maxam doesn't mean Gamora wasn't trying to stroke Sasquatch's ego. Clearly.

Godslayer also was the exact reason why Ronan stalemated with Gamora. Because of the feedback caused by its powerful energies. And apparently you think Gamora with Godslayer isn't anymore formidable than Gamora without it. Profound conclusion, right there.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Let me take an except from the rules:

At times, for the sake of the plot, characters that are immensely more powerful than their opponent will "job" to carry on the plot of the story, even though the characters powers and history would clearly show that they are more than capable of destroying their opponent. For this reason we have a No PIS Rule. This rule prohibits the use of such instances of PIS from being used as evidence in debates.

The key word there is "powers AND history".

Historically speaking, Ronan has been known to fight that way. In fact, throughout the arc he was shown consistently fighting that way.

It is CIS at BEST, pure and simple. Heck, one CANNOT prove that Ronan would manage to decisively STOP Gamora even with the use of his powers as he already managed to tag her a few times and she kept coming.

If you're going to adopt Jin's position that he NEEDED to fly and bomb her from a distance to make the fight valid, then you just stop right there and reread over 10+ pages of debate before letting me retype everything....

Exactly, powers and history. Ronan has sown the abilities in the past to stop time, create force fields, fly, disable gravity, transmute matter. He didn't use these abilities and the ones he did use he used only a small scale... and even then they proved pretty effective... and he decided against further use of said abilities for some reason or another.

It's not CIS, it falls under another category in the rules section:

"Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels."

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
👆 kinda

Surely this is worthy of an /endthread. But not nearly as close as this: dur

/endthread

So in rebuttle to me stating established comic book facts, you simply make childish faces. The level of disrespect you have shown the posters who are actually using scans and reasoned logic here warrents you to be banned in my opinion - but - you are a fun guy to debate with because you consistently ignore evidence and insist that you're opinion is right - you remind me of a fundamentalist Christian - no offense. I know that could be construed as an "attack" but considering what you've been getting away with I would say you're hardly in a position to report me.

Anyway, I don't know anything about Thor except that he's apparently some kind of immortal who can bleed. If he can bleed, can he die? No, I'm serious...can an immortal like that bleed out? It seems to make sense I mean why else would he fear that Wolverine would end up causing more damage? But I will let an honest poster answer this as I don't feel like wasting money on Thor comics 😘

As for Logan doing martial arts for thousands of years - that's established in canon - you can't really argue it.

Again, it doesn't matter how many you've mastered but the degree you've mastered them. As has been stated, Logan has been doing martial arts for thousands of years yet he still can't Chi amp. Still can kick the crap out of Shang Chi using skill alone though.