Gamora vs. Wolverine

Originally posted by dmills
Wow. This one went on longer then I anticipated.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Because you keep assuming that you seem to know w/c strategies would have worked better in each scenario even though it was never shown that they would and plausible reasons were given why they wouldn't.

And I assume nothing.
Ronan holding Gamora helpless to a point he could have effortlessly smashed her repeatidly in the face being a more effective combat method than letting her go isn't an assumption.. It's math... Again do we need to explain to you how 2 is greater than 1?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
You cannot prove otherwise, and thus cannot disqualify this as a potential reason to why he opted to attack her with a UW blast.

That's the way debate works... I don't have to prove a negative... so it's up to you to prove that he DID think that.... You can't and it's not even supported by what we see on panel.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Because the blast might have knocked her out of stasis?
Perhaps because he has not since been able to apply the stasis field on her succesfully (it looked like he needed touch contact to do it)?

Even though he did it on panel? Yeah, fail.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Not what I said. Please try and understand the statments better before making silly assumptions.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
He blasted her from within the stasis bubble because he wanted her to suffer. If someone stabbed a friend of yours, would you be content at holding the person down or would you release one of his arms so that you can free up your own arm to punch him?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
That, in turn, blasted her right out of stasis and made the fight continue.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Only to a closed mind.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
He deflected it with the UW force field, doesn't mean it was ineffective.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
His ranged attacks were having little effect on her when they DID connect (heck, he had her caught in a stasis bubble, had time to charge up his UN for a focused energy blast AND blasted her in the back at short range, but it didnt even do any visible damage on her) so taking this fight to the sky might not be as big an advantage as you think.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
You mean him blasting her from within a stasis field ISN'T him taking advantage of a compromised opponent?? From a guy who says that him letting her go from the stasis field was a bad tactical choice, you making this sugggesion shows how little consistency you have with your argumentation.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Never belittled your intelligence. Just the foolishness of your argumentation.

Calling me foolish is an insult to my intelligence.
Asking if I'm "high" because of your disagreement to my argument is an insult to my intelligence.
Calling my logic "flawed as always".... yeah more of the same.

If you can't even keep track of how you handle yourself in your own arguments.....

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
If you don't understand my meaning, ask for clarifications. I felt that I put together my points quite concisely.

Drawing yourself into a multi-quote war with me? That's concise? And I understand your "meaning" perfectly...

So far you feel quite fit to give Gamora the benefit of the doubt based on unsupported supposition you've made for the sake of bringing reason to the unreasonable. You have failed to understand what makes the fight suspect in the first place ignoring rationality for what you've deemed as "logical" in spite of your "logical" alternatives being counter-set to simple mathematics. Yet you've deemed me to be the closed minded one here and have chosen to belittle me and my arguments for no other reason than being in disagreement with yours. Yet you feel the need to call my arguments "pathetic" lol.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
That is simply opinion formed from dogged persistence. If you opened your mind but a fraction and reread my arguments, you should already consider the fight quite valid. And is a good showing for BOTH parties involved.

It is NOT an opinion... It would be an opinion if we didn't see glimpses of Ronan fighting to effect ON PANEL.... but we do... the fact that he gives up those advantages OFF PANEL and without explanation makes this whole thing VERY suspect... How can you not see that?

And LOL, of course if I had your subjective viewpoint of the fight I wouldn't be here arguing with you about it....

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
W/c didnt occur here. What you don't seem to understand is that in this fight:
1) Ronan WAS NOT holding back at all.
2) Ronan was shown to use a large variety of his powerset in this fight. More than any other showing he's had in a while.
Your dogged determination to disqualify or downplay this fight stems from a flawed argument that:

"If any single ability/tactic that MIGHT be shown to give a certain character an advantage but wasn't used in certain fights automatically deems the fight invalid as a showing.

Except that he did... Again what's more important here? What he said? Or what he did?
He didn't fight to effect in spite of having multiple oppurtunities to capitalize... it's that simple.

Also that's not my argument, that's a strawman, an argument you made up for me (which is most likely why it's a flawed one)... I already layed my position out for you.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Few points:
1) YES. Characters might be written to not use some powers to allow for fights to occur. Does not make the fight invalid or a low showing. Otherwise:

-Every Flash fight lasts more than a panel is invalid
-Every Surfer fight that doesn't have him opening black holes or shirnking down to attack his opponent from within or attacking them from the Astral Plane is invalid.
-Every Superman fight where he 1) fought bricks hand to hand or dididn't speed blitz his opponent at the very start is invalid.
-Every Thor fight where he didnt God blast some serious threat or simply BFR his target is invalid.

Do you get it now???

The only thing I'm "getting" here is that you completely ignored the real problem at hand to open your strawman up to debate.

Again. I'm not arguing that the fight is invalid because of the powers Ronan didn't use, though that in and of itself makes the fight suspect.

I'm arguing the fight is invalid because the powers he DID use to effect he simply stopped using mid fight, for no reason given.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
If you read what he posted AFTER, rather than just looking at the scans, you MIGHT begin to understand how he owned you argument there...

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Please indicate where I said: "Gamora is the same level as Ronan"

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Only to the close minded...

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I never said she was "Ronan-level" again, pls indicate where I specifically said that.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
It showed that her level of skill/physicality was sufficient enough to neutralize Ronan's power output/versatility. It also showcased a lot of her new abilities. This is why the feat is very important and this is why you're trying to invalidate it by claiming that "Ronan didn't fight effectively".

No it didn't... And that's the problem. We see Gamora use a lot of speed and agility, but it's not > the things Wolverine has done.
We see Gamora tank some shots but it's arguably not > the things Wolverine has taken. And is also inconsistent with other showings in the Annihilation story.
We see a mediocre speed feat from Gamora that's downright < Wolverine.
And then we see her unleash Godslayer.... which she fails to cut/stab Ronan with which is a bad testiment to her melee ability with the weapon...

The issue of her escaping Ronan pressing his advantages off panel really invalidates her ability to neutralize his power output and versatility because that's not what we see ON PANEL. And that's not good for Gamora supporters.

The problem is that people think this fight alone proves Gamora is > Wolverine, but with the exception of a couple of strength feats (and even then Wolverine has like-feats in his high end stuff), Wolverine and her could easily be switched out and the fight would have been near identical.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I don't even like Gamora but that argumentation is just silly.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
She is not just stronger. She is FAR stronger. Which will come in handy if he ever manages to grapple her (w/c I doubt) or if she wants to put some distance between her and him (via leaps).

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
It can be argued that she is faster. But neither you nor me can prove otherwise. It can be argued that she has been shown to posses super speed in terms of her running speed at least.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
More skilled? It has been mentioned the level of skill she operates in. I also mentioned that she is AT LEAST skilled enough to easily match Wolverine in H2H and definitely be skilled enough to tag him with the Godslayer.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
So someone who is accurate enough to tag him with an energy weapon (something that adamantium bones won't help you much in) that will rend the flesh from his bone as well as being fast enough to remain ahead of him to avoid melee combat in a fight ISN'T given a large advantage here??

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
And here you are arguing that Ronan flying should have given him a huge advantage against Gamora....

Ah whatever.

Originally posted by Deadline
Ah whatever.

lulz@ the edit.

Originally posted by jinzin
They weren't plausible or even remotely reasonable.

That is your biased opinion. You can neither prove nor disprove them. But they are all plausible. In court, that's called reasonable doubt.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wow. So, basically,

Originally posted by jinzin
And as far as the comic itself, NO reason was given WHATSOEVER as to why they wouldn't,

You cannot prove nor disprove if they would work or not. That is why this kind of argumentation cannot be used for this debate. I cannot argue that they wouldn't work, you cannot prove that they would. Thus, it is inadmissible.

Originally posted by jinzin
which is especially disconcerning given the fact that when we see them... THEY ARE.

Prove it. If you can't, then this type of argumentation is inadmissible.

Originally posted by jinzin
And I assume nothing.
Ronan holding Gamora helpless to a point he could have effortlessly smashed her repeatidly in the face being a more effective combat method than letting her go isn't an assumption.. It's math... Again do we need to explain to you how 2 is greater than 1?

There is no proof that she would have been unable to escape given time. You are simply assuming that she will stand helpless while he hits her.

Originally posted by jinzin

😐

That's the way debate works... I don't have to prove a negative... so it's up to you to prove that he DID think that.... You can't and it's not even supported by what we see on panel.

I'm not the one making the sweeping assumptions. You did when you said:

Originally posted by jinzin
Exactly... you DON'T know because as I already painfully pointed out to you there's utterly NO REASON, no logical reason WHATSOEVER for Ronan to simply give up the advantages he had in that fight, which is what he did.

I presented you with possible plausible explanations on his tactical choices. You actually have to disprove each and every plausible explanation in order to make your argument stand.

In court that is called reasonable doubt.

Originally posted by jinzin
Even though he did it on panel? Yeah, fail.

Actually. You fail. Please reread the fight, I have it in front of me right now and it looks like he had to catch her by surprise and touch her up close in order to execute the stasis move. Nowhere in the fight does he get that chance again.

Originally posted by jinzin
Sorry I don't adhere to nonsense.

You only adhere to pro-wolverine nonsense, it seems.

Originally posted by jinzin
That was your reasoning for why he let her go.
"perhaps he wanted her to suffer"... Yes.. perfect reasoning to let go of a "helpless" opponent.... Again, fail.

So, him wanting to attack her while she was in stasis with a powerful attack (rather than just be content to let her stay in stasis for a bit) to make her suffer for killing his friend is fail logic? Niiice.

Originally posted by jinzin
Well I would actually use my grappling prowess to break his limbs.

Hahaha. I hope you know that flexing one's e-peen by bragging about irrelevant things in an internet forum is really pathetic. Just saying...

Originally posted by jinzin
But..... it doesn't matter what I would do because Ronan isn't limited to those options. He could hold her and attack her at the same time.. as he did on panel.

There is no proof that he would be succesful at doing this. There is no proof that the stasis field would hold indefinitely. There is no proof that the stasis field won't break after a single strong attack lands (especially when it has shown that it would).

Originally posted by jinzin
Which IS NOT what is displayed on panel... so we are once again treated to YOUR ASSUMPTIONS and suppositions about what happened off panel.... Fail.

My explanation is that the stasis field broke when he shot her. Because it does seem like it broke when he shot her. It is sure a hell of a lot better than your explanation that he just let her go. :-/

Originally posted by jinzin
No it's simple logic, fact, and mathematics.

Lol. Keep telling yourself that. I'm sure it helps.

Originally posted by jinzin
No, the fact that it did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stop Ronan from closing the gap, grabbing her by the throat and smashing her in the face does though.

Ronan is no combat slouch himself. He caught her monolouging and got a good clean hit. That doesn't take anything away from him. However, it barely did any damage to her other than threw her back. It certainly proved that she can take hits from Ronan's UW. The same UW that was able to KO Ravenous.

Originally posted by jinzin
Except for the fact that she was contorting/screaming in pain? Or completely trapped, or completely stalled... Yeah, how ineffective. 🙄

Where exactly was she screaming in pain? Present scans pls.

Originally posted by jinzin
The only thing Gamora could do in that fight was take advantage of Ronan trying to melee with her or fire single blasts at her. Going airborne would completely rob her of any ability she might have to beat him.

And it would give him what exactly? He'll take potshots at her where it's already shown that she could tank his blasts or avoid them altogether? Again, you go and make sweeping assumptions that going airborne would consist an autowin on his part.

Originally posted by jinzin
Uh, no... it shows how much trouble you have following simple trains of thought due to the full confidence in your own made up unsupported supposition.
Blasting her inside a stasis field IS... Letting her go so she can continue to fight back? Not so much.

Can you actually PROVE that he let her go? Or are you just making huge sweeping assumptions to support faulty argumentation again?

Originally posted by jinzin
Calling me foolish is an insult to my intelligence.

Asking if I'm "high" because of your disagreement to my argument is an insult to my intelligence.

Calling my logic "flawed as always".... yeah more of the same

Calling your logic "flawed as always" consists of all the logical assumptions you made in this debate. And yes, they are flawed and pointing it out is simply stating fact.

If you can't even keep track of how you handle yourself in your own arguments.....

I insulted your flawed argument/logic within this debate not your intelligence. Please learn to distinguish.

Originally posted by jinzin
Drawing yourself into a multi-quote war with me? That's concise? And I understand your "meaning" perfectly...

I feel that I have to answer each of your assumptions. I did it in as clear and as short an explanation as I can. It's your choice what you want to make of it.

Originally posted by jinzin
So far you feel quite fit to give Gamora the benefit of the doubt based on unsupported supposition you've made for the sake of bringing reason to the unreasonable. You have failed to understand what makes the fight suspect in the first place ignoring rationality for what you've deemed as "logical" in spite of your "logical" alternatives being counter-set to simple mathematics. Yet you've deemed me to be the closed minded one here and have chosen to belittle me and my arguments for no other reason than being in disagreement with yours. Yet you feel the need to call my arguments "pathetic" lol.

Close. But no.

You were the one to claim that the fight can't be used as a basis because, in your opinion, Ronan did not fight effectively. You sought to invalidate this showing as a feat by creating a GENERAL SWEEPING ASSUMPTION that NO OTHER LOGICAL EXPLANATION exists other than PIS that Ronan made certain tactical choices in the fight that you disagreed with. I disagreed with this assumption as many other different (however unlikely in YOUR eyes) explanation exists that would counter your little claim. YOU have to prove that the alternative possibilities cannot possibly occur as YOU are the one who made the sweeping generalized statement.

One funny thing is, I can't believe you'd bring in the word mathematics in this debate as no numbers, symbols or equations were shown.

Originally posted by jinzin
It is NOT an opinion... It would be an opinion if we didn't see glimpses of Ronan fighting to effect ON PANEL.... but we do... the fact that he gives up those advantages OFF PANEL and without explanation makes this whole thing VERY suspect... How can you not see that?

For this to be true, you have to PROVE that he CHOSE to give up those advantages. Otherwise, you're making up an assumption on an occurence that you never managed to witness.

Originally posted by jinzin
And LOL, of course if I had your subjective viewpoint of the fight I wouldn't be here arguing with you about it....

Subjective? Please prove where I was shown to show any sort of bias in this debate. The only person here with any sort of bias, really, is you.

I've got a long flight to catch so I'll continue this once i land.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
That is your biased opinion. You can neither prove nor disprove them. But they are all plausible. In court, that's called reasonable doubt.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
You cannot prove nor disprove if they would work or not. That is why this kind of argumentation cannot be used for this debate. I cannot argue that they wouldn't work, you cannot prove that they would. Thus, it is inadmissible.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Prove it. If you can't, then this type of argumentation is inadmissible.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
There is no proof that she would have been unable to escape given time. You are simply assuming that she will stand helpless while he hits her.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I'm not the one making the sweeping assumptions. You did when you said:

Me saying there's no reason for Ronan giving up his advantages is true. Name one reason that was given in the comic... oh wait, you can't.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I presented you with possible plausible explanations on his tactical choices. You actually have to disprove each and every plausible explanation in order to make your argument stand.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
In court that is called reasonable doubt.

Reasonable doubt: doubt, based upon reason and common sense after careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence, or lack of evidence, in a case.

Evidence includes watching Gamora fry helplessly ON PANEL.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Actually. You fail. Please reread the fight, I have it in front of me right now and it looks like he had to catch her by surprise and touch her up close in order to execute the stasis move. Nowhere in the fight does he get that chance again.

Seriously... do you know who Ronan is? Even if you only saw annihilation.... You should know this...

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
You only adhere to pro-wolverine nonsense, it seems.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
So, him wanting to attack her while she was in stasis with a powerful attack (rather than just be content to let her stay in stasis for a bit) to make her suffer for killing his friend is fail logic? Niiice.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Hahaha. I hope you know that flexing one's e-peen by bragging about irrelevant things in an internet forum is really pathetic. Just saying...

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
There is no proof that he would be succesful at doing this. There is no proof that the stasis field would hold indefinitely. There is no proof that the stasis field won't break after a single strong attack lands (especially when it has shown that it would).

He did so ON PANEL in that very fight. He's done so in others.. That's proof right there. It was NEVER shown that a single strong attack would break the field on impact... Infact, if Black Bolt couldn't do it what makes you think Gamora could? Because she SUPPOSEDLY did going by YOUR interpretation... OFF PANEL?! .....wow....

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
My explanation is that the stasis field broke when he shot her. Because it does seem like it broke when he shot her. It is sure a hell of a lot better than your explanation that he just let her go. :-/

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Ronan is no combat slouch himself. He caught her monolouging and got a good clean hit. That doesn't take anything away from him. However, it barely did any damage to her other than threw her back. It certainly proved that she can take hits from Ronan's UW. The same UW that was able to KO Ravenous.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Where exactly was she screaming in pain? Present scans pls.

I'm sure she's spread eagle mouth gapping open because it looks cool.... 🙄

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
And it would give him what exactly? He'll take potshots at her where it's already shown that she could tank his blasts or avoid them altogether? Again, you go and make sweeping assumptions that going airborne would consist an autowin on his part.

cause it would... She could avoid single generic energy blasts... Could she avoid getting frozen, her gravity turned off, her molecules rearranged etc etc? She had one ranged attack that was shown to be useless.. The only thing she had going for her was melee.... which is why the WHOLE FIGHT is suspect in the first place.... Ronan had so many options to end that nonsense it wasn't even funny and took advantage of none of them. Even the options he DID use in that fight that rendered Gamora helpless... he STILL did not take advantage of them. It's rather absurd to keep supporting this fight when it suffers such serious plot holes.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Can you actually PROVE that he let her go? Or are you just making huge sweeping assumptions to support faulty argumentation again?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I insulted your flawed argument/logic within this debate not your intelligence. Please learn to distinguish.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I feel that I have to answer each of your assumptions. I did it in as clear and as short an explanation as I can. It's your choice what you want to make of it.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Close. But no.

You were the one to claim that the fight can't be used as a basis because, in your opinion, Ronan did not fight effectively. You sought to invalidate this showing as a feat by creating a GENERAL SWEEPING ASSUMPTION that NO OTHER LOGICAL EXPLANATION exists other than PIS that Ronan made certain tactical choices in the fight that you disagreed with. I disagreed with this assumption as many other different (however unlikely in YOUR eyes) explanation exists that would counter your little claim. YOU have to prove that the alternative possibilities cannot possibly occur as YOU are the one who made the sweeping generalized statement.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
One funny thing is, I can't believe you'd bring in the word mathematics in this debate as no numbers, symbols or equations were shown.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
For this to be true, you have to PROVE that he CHOSE to give up those advantages. Otherwise, you're making up an assumption on an occurence that you never managed to witness.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Subjective? Please prove where I was shown to show any sort of bias in this debate. The only person here with any sort of bias, really, is you.

Originally posted by Philosophía
I remember reading this discussion like a week ago, is it still at the point where comic showings are ignored due to, well, one of the characters not fighting in a forum capacity/user controlled manner? If so, lulz.

Originally posted by Blanket
Ronan fought smarter against Gamora than he has in the strong majority of his career...

Nevermind, it was Thor vs Wolverine... ya, that's it. Ronan vs Gamora was exactly like that!

Now let's make a bait thread for Gamora losers!

Gamora vs Savage Hulk
Gamora vs Gorgon
Gamora vs Dr Doom
Gamora vs Fantastic Four
Gamora vs Carnage

And still more bait threads are being created since! Thus stands demonstrated, the power of Wolverine:

Ronan vs Gamora
Gamora vs. Spiderman vs. Wolverine
Ronan vs Hercules
Gamora vs Hercules

Or perhaps more accurately, what's being demonstrated is the power of

Spoiler:
the butt-hurt caused by this thread

I knooowwww. I land and open my forum and get 2 pages of nonsensical, almost zealot-like adherence at attempting to disprove one feat using absolutely flawed logic.

I have to admit, flawed as his logic is, he presents it well. I feel like I'm almost arguing theology to a religous zealot here.

Anyway, back to the debate at hand.

To: Jinzin

I'm in the airport and do not have time do do this quote-per-quote (I'll do that when I get back home in a few days).

I cannot believe that you're trying to shift the burden of proof to my side. Did I make any sweeping, generalized statements? No, I did not. Merely stated plausible explanations that your generalized statement might not be at all true.

YOU have to disprove them in order to support your generalized statement that no OTHER possible explanations can take place not the other way around.

Meaning that you have to present explanations to:

Reasons why Gamora wasn't held indefinately in the stasis field:
1) Gamora could have broken thru eventually so Ronan chose to blast her in it. The use of HIS OWN power output on his own stasis field could have broken the hold
2) Ronan believed that he could have finished her in one hit (it certainly seemed like he hit her as hard as he could) and that in turn broke his stasis field (as above).
3) Ronan wanted revenge so he blasted her, rather than just watch her remain in a stasis field. That in turn caused the stasis field to break (as above).

Reasons why Ronan did not fly:
1) He believes he has a better chance of inflicting damage to her as his empowered UW weapon strikes seem to do the most damage to opponents.
2 It's easier to hit moving targets in close range.
3) It is WITHIN character for him to fight in melee range and not fly and attack from range. He has more showings fighting on the ground than he does floating in the air raining energy attacks.

You also CANNOT prove that Gamora would just stand there and let him rain energy blasts against her. Given that situation, she would just avoid his attacks.

And for EFFIN'S sake, how does RONAN FLYING have anything to do with a WOLVERINE VS GAMORA FIGHT!?!?!?!

But REQUIRING characters to fight in a user-controlled fashion in order to validate the fight is just nuts. I do not know why you can't seem to realize that.

As for the Black Bolt stasis feat, gj ignoring context that:
1) It was indicated ON PANEL that BB's powers was used against him.
2) BB did NOT use his voice there.

Shows again your almost religious adherence to the grate church of Wolverine. I'm sure the swimsuit poster of Wolverine you have on your ceiling chases away many a lonely night.

The funny thing is, if you just admit that the feat is viable we MIGHT ACTUALLY go back to debating about Wolverine vs Gamora rather than have 10 pages of nonsensical arguments. Or are you afraid that this feat places Gamora above Wolverine?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I knooowwww. I land and open my forum and get 2 pages of nonsensical, almost zealot-like adherence at attempting to disprove one feat using absolutely flawed logic.

I have to admit, flawed as his logic is, he presents it well. I feel like I'm almost arguing theology to a religous zealot here.

Anyway, back to the debate at hand.

To: Jinzin

I'm in the airport and do not have time do do this quote-per-quote (I'll do that when I get back home in a few days).

I cannot believe that you're trying to shift the burden of proof to my side. Did I make any sweeping, generalized statements? No, I did not. Merely stated plausible explanations that your generalized statement might not be at all true.

YOU have to disprove them in order to support your generalized statement that no OTHER possible explanations can take place not the other way around.

Meaning that you have to present explanations to:

Reasons why Gamora wasn't held indefinately in the stasis field:
1) Gamora could have broken thru eventually so Ronan chose to blast her in it. The use of HIS OWN power output on his own stasis field could have broken the hold
2) Ronan believed that he could have finished her in one hit (it certainly seemed like he hit her as hard as he could) and that in turn broke his stasis field (as above).
3) Ronan wanted revenge so he blasted her, rather than just watch her remain in a stasis field. That in turn caused the stasis field to break (as above).

Reasons why Ronan did not fly:
1) He believes he has a better chance of inflicting damage to her as his empowered UW weapon strikes seem to do the most damage to opponents.
2 It's easier to hit moving targets in close range.
3) It is WITHIN character for him to fight in melee range and not fly and attack from range. He has more showings fighting on the ground than he does floating in the air raining energy attacks.

You also CANNOT prove that Gamora would just stand there and let him rain energy blasts against her. Given that situation, she would just avoid his attacks.

And for EFFIN'S sake, how does RONAN FLYING have anything to do with a WOLVERINE VS GAMORA FIGHT!?!?!?!

But REQUIRING characters to fight in a user-controlled fashion in order to validate the fight is just nuts. I do not know why you can't seem to realize that.

As for the Black Bolt stasis feat, gj ignoring context that:
1) It was indicated ON PANEL that BB's powers was used against him.
2) BB did NOT use his voice there.

Shows again your almost religious adherence to the grate church of Wolverine. I'm sure the swimsuit poster of Wolverine you have on your ceiling chases away many a lonely night.

The funny thing is, if you just admit that the feat is viable we MIGHT ACTUALLY go back to debating about Wolverine vs Gamora rather than have 10 pages of nonsensical arguments. Or are you afraid that this feat places Gamora above Wolverine?

It's funny how many people get away with consistently breaking the rules around here - you are not supposed to call someone a fanboy just because they defend a character. Jinzin is just making sense and saying that Gamora doesn't have the feats to back up a victory over Wolverine - and you just keep insisting he's a fanboy...

Two things I've seen Jinzin do that proves he's not a fanboy -

1) Argue with me about who's a better fighter - Elektra or Wolverine

2) Thinking that current Psylocke should beat the crap out of Wolverine giving her current skill and power boost.

So in other words, he is likely to argue that psylocke has a legit chance of beating Gamora which means that he doesn't think Gamora is nearly as big of a deal that you think she is. What it does not mean, however, is that he is some blind fanboy.

i notice the constant rule breaking insult and member bashing but, i didnt want to say anything... it is some times okay in small doses. if i reported him and others like him we wouldnt have descending opinions and this site would have less ppl to argue and debate.

i already have remorse for losing two members.. i cant go through it again.. i cant do it..

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I knooowwww. I land and open my forum and get 2 pages of nonsensical, almost zealot-like adherence at attempting to disprove one feat using absolutely flawed logic.

I have to admit, flawed as his logic is, he presents it well. I feel like I'm almost arguing theology to a religous zealot here.

Anyway, back to the debate at hand.

To: Jinzin

I'm in the airport and do not have time do do this quote-per-quote (I'll do that when I get back home in a few days).

I cannot believe that you're trying to shift the burden of proof to my side. Did I make any sweeping, generalized statements? No, I did not. Merely stated plausible explanations that your generalized statement might not be at all true.

YOU have to disprove them in order to support your generalized statement that no OTHER possible explanations can take place not the other way around.

Meaning that you have to present explanations to:

Reasons why Gamora wasn't held indefinately in the stasis field:
1) Gamora could have broken thru eventually so Ronan chose to blast her in it. The use of HIS OWN power output on his own stasis field could have broken the hold
2) Ronan believed that he could have finished her in one hit (it certainly seemed like he hit her as hard as he could) and that in turn broke his stasis field (as above).
3) Ronan wanted revenge so he blasted her, rather than just watch her remain in a stasis field. That in turn caused the stasis field to break (as above).

Reasons why Ronan did not fly:
1) He believes he has a better chance of inflicting damage to her as his empowered UW weapon strikes seem to do the most damage to opponents.
2 It's easier to hit moving targets in close range.
3) It is WITHIN character for him to fight in melee range and not fly and attack from range. He has more showings fighting on the ground than he does floating in the air raining energy attacks.

You also CANNOT prove that Gamora would just stand there and let him rain energy blasts against her. Given that situation, she would just avoid his attacks.

And for EFFIN'S sake, how does RONAN FLYING have anything to do with a WOLVERINE VS GAMORA FIGHT!?!?!?!

But REQUIRING characters to fight in a user-controlled fashion in order to validate the fight is just nuts. I do not know why you can't seem to realize that.

As for the Black Bolt stasis feat, gj ignoring context that:
1) It was indicated ON PANEL that BB's powers was used against him.
2) BB did NOT use his voice there.

Shows again your almost religious adherence to the grate church of Wolverine. I'm sure the swimsuit poster of Wolverine you have on your ceiling chases away many a lonely night.

The funny thing is, if you just admit that the feat is viable we MIGHT ACTUALLY go back to debating about Wolverine vs Gamora rather than have 10 pages of nonsensical arguments. Or are you afraid that this feat places Gamora above Wolverine?

Wow... so basically... the first part of this post devoted to running circles we already covered.

And the second? Nothing more than an ad hominem attack. Really?

Now THAT'S pathetic. Though I'm sure you meant "great" church of Wolverine, because I'm not entirely sure what a "grate church" would be.... 😕

As for this matter of the stasis field...

1. I proved that Ronan doesn't need to touch Gamora to affect her. Something I thought should be common knowledge... but I guess not.
And,
2. That a character who is much more in line with Gamora's physical stats and has much more feats for his energy projection/power output than Gamora does couldn't escape Ronan's trap...

So I'll ask again... Is Gamora more likely to break out of something that Black Bolt couldn't?

The fact is that the fight ISN'T viable.... At the very LEAST not for the purposes people are trying to legitimate it for in this debate and at the most is PIS altogether.

At most you can argue that Gamora did well due to Ronan's CIS... which I already flattly told you was fine but you can't argue that it's a feat that places her outside Wolverine's scope or inside Ronans. It's no more a viable feat than Wolverine's fight with Thor.

I'm not scared of the fight itself because as I said we could switch Gamora and Wolverine out and the results would be pretty identical with the exception of one or two minor things. I AM however annoyed by the fallout of propaganda that people attempt to capitalize on as a result of the fact that she fought him.

The whole problem with this fight is that people come it's defense as if Gamora is on Ronan's level... which once more... anyone with even a passing familiarity of his powerset/history is fully aware of how that's the farthest thing from the truth.... It's comparible to Wolverine fans using the highest/least sensical things that Wolverine has done in his career and posing those feats as legitimate pillars of the Pro-Logan argument here....

I'm not a rabid senseless Wolverine fanboy that you seem to think I am, but I COULD start arguing like one... because then Gamora's basically dealin with an invincible, uber tier MA who can't be put away.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wow... so basically... the first part of this post devoted to running circles we already covered.

And the second? Nothing more than an ad hominem attack. Really?

Now THAT'S pathetic. Though I'm sure you meant "great" church of Wolverine, because I'm not entirely sure what a "grate church" would be.... 😕

Cool, point out a typo on my part. Typing on a laptop with a small monitor doesn't help your spelling any, but sure my poor spelling is ONE THING you got right throughout all this. YAY! FOR YOU!

BTW, we're running in circles because you can't seem to understand a lot of what I'm saying.

Case in point:

Originally posted by jinzin

As for this matter of the stasis field...

1. I proved that Ronan doesn't need to touch Gamora to affect her. Something I thought should be common knowledge... but I guess not.
And,
2. That a character who is much more in line with Gamora's physical stats and has much more feats for his energy projection/power output than Gamora does couldn't escape Ronan's trap...

So I'll ask again... Is Gamora more likely to break out of something that Black Bolt couldn't?

Do you even read my posts at all?? I explained many many many many many times that it was RONAN'S power output due to his OWN UW attack that seemed to have breached the stasis field... JEEZ! How hard is that to understand???

I guess you should stick to finding typos in my replies, that's the only thing you seem to be good at. Leave deductive reasoning to people who can actually remain objective...

Gamora isn't BB and catching someone who charges right into a waiting trap vs catching one who is being evasive are 2 different things.

Also, please bear in mind context before drawing parallels with feats. BB was brought down quickly when his power was used against him. Gamora has no such power that can be used against her, and thus, will remain in the stasis field longer than BB did. Giving her a chance to physically resist it.

Originally posted by jinzin
The fact is that the fight ISN'T viable.... At the very LEAST not for the purposes people are trying to legitimate it for in this debate and at the most is PIS altogether.

Except that the fight is viable as a measure of Gamora's abilities. And trying to invalidate it because you believe characters should tactically behave in the way YOU SEE FIT when there's no way you can even prove in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER that you have complete understanding of his tactical reasoning is the flaw in your argument that caught my attention.

Originally posted by jinzin
At most you can argue that Gamora did well due to Ronan's CIS... which I already flattly told you was fine but you can't argue that it's a feat that places her outside Wolverine's scope or inside Ronans. It's no more a viable feat than Wolverine's fight with Thor.

Except in the Thor fight, Wolverine WASN'T being a serious threat to Thor...

Well, he WAS if your interpretation of a serious threat is dancing around avoiding his physical blows until being put down, that is.

Also, CIS is part of the character and fights that turn out the way they do due to CIS is generally accepted as admissible here. You have to consider that both Gamora and Ronan are running under CIS and that they both won't respond using the most tactically viable attack at any one time.

You've already mentioned that CIS is acceptable, and thus you should accept that the fight is valid.

As for how the fight pertains to Gamora's level vs Wolverine, it would be best for you to accept the fight as valid FIRST and move on so that we can go and actually DEBATE ABOUT WOLVERINE VS GAMORA.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not scared of the fight itself because as I said we could switch Gamora and Wolverine out and the results would be pretty identical with the exception of one or two minor things. I AM however annoyed by the fallout of propaganda that people attempt to capitalize on as a result of the fact that she fought him.

I doubt it. Wolverine would have been downed by the being dipped in molten magma or getting hit with lightning strikes unless you have scans proving he can tank molten magma and lightning strikes without taking any damage at all.

Originally posted by jinzin
The whole problem with this fight is that people come it's defense as if Gamora is on Ronan's level... which once more... anyone with even a passing familiarity of his powerset/history is fully aware of how that's the farthest thing from the truth.... It's comparible to Wolverine fans using the highest/least sensical things that Wolverine has done in his career and posing those feats as legitimate pillars of the Pro-Logan argument here....

No, I never said she was Ronan level. I could care less about Gamora, tbh. I don't even like the character. Perhaps this shows in my annoyance at debating the same points over and over again on a character I don't even care much about.

But your logic for trying to invalidate the fight is flawed and that's what I'm really trying to get at here.

The fight is valid. Let it go and move on.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not a rabid senseless Wolverine fanboy that you seem to think I am, but I COULD start arguing like one... because then Gamora's basically dealin with an invincible, uber tier MA who can't be put away.

Make your case using comparative feats then. Don't bog down the debate with a desperate attempt at invalidating a feat that many consider legitimate.

My belief is still that Gamora will beat Wolverine. Not due to the generalized and oversimplified fact that she managed to easily hold her own against Ronan but at the FEATS she managed to pull off when she did. If you believe otherwise, prove it.

Dear lord... Okay at this point all I can do is 😬
at your sad attempts to legitimate an invalid fight as representational. It isn't... and as you once projected... insisting otherwise doesn't make it so.

He wasn't a threat to Thor? Is that why Thor was using his fiercest and finest blows, why he was shocked he was missing, or why he recognized he wouldn't be able to hold out in melee for much longer? Because he WASN'T a threat to Thor?

Pfffft... Y'know I was going to respond to your post in full but you're being beyond ridiculous at this point.

Trying to dictate that Ronan can't catch Gamora in a stasis field without touching her when he can surround entire teams with the effects of his UW, I mean... I don't know what to say really.

I'd love a decent debate with you but the bottem line is that you have already FULLY admitted several times you CAN'T prove your case... and yet you feel the need to attack me as a Wolverine fan-boy because I have an opinion differing from yours... For one who wants to preach about closed mindedness...

This is ridiculous, but if you feel the need to get into a scan war, feel free to start.

And, since you were wondering... yeah Wolverine walked out of a pot of molten metal and used being electrofried to deal damage to his oponents several times in the past.... The fact that this is apparently news to you only serves to show me how ignorant you continue to be about not one but BOTH characters in this thread... *yawn*

Dogged insistence til the end.

The fight is legitimate and saying it is not, doesn't make it so. You have no argument that makes the fight invalid in any way. Your only argument that makes the fight illegitimate in your eyes seems to be that you believe that he should fight in tactical perfection without any sort of storyline motivation to his actions. I mean, do you read comics at all???? Geez, at this point I've nothing but total exasperation for you.

I've seen the Wolverine vs Thor scans.... IS THAT how you saw the fight??? Wow.

THIS is how I see it: Wolverine was enchanted with an illusion that made him think Thor was sabretooth. Thor realizes this and is trying to figure out how to snap him out of this. Wolverine dodges some melee swings and lands a few. Thor tosses him away and tries to imbalance Wolverine with a quake shot (mistakenly) allowing Wolverine to jump him from behind. This pisses off Thor so he just
knocked Wolverine to the ground and zapped him with a lightning bolt. Oh look. Wolverine taken down by a single lightning bolt....

Thor had a lot of reason to hold back until he became annoyed enough to just two-shot Wolverine.

Also, where exactly did it state that Thor thought he would be unable to hold off against Wolverine? The part where Thor mentioned that he was glad the fight ended before someone was actually hurt? That's a bit of a stretch isn't it?

So, what kind of motivation did Ronan have to hold back/not wish any harm against Gamora again?

You see, you really need to try and realize CONTEXT before making sweeping generalized claims or making parallels between two completely different situations.

Calling me beyond ridiculous...... Wow. Kettle, meet pot. On second thought, I think you've smoked too much of that already.

Again, context. We could only speculate WHY he didn't attempt it against Gamora again. We can prove nor disprove either. You're the only one who uses: "he just let her go" as a reason and call every other possible reason as "illogical". Sheesh.

If I was like you, I'd actually call you on your "bottem" line typo and attempt at some sort of funny comment, but I'll be content to just point out that we can all get typos and pointing out typos just to sound smarter actually accomplishes the opposite.

A scan war?? Do you EVER EVEN READ MY REPLIES?!?! I'm arguing for the legitimacy of the Gamora vs Ronan fight. I really could care less who would win, tho, I've mentioned that I believe Gamora wins. My main point was and always have been to simply point out the faulty logic that you INSIST on adopting to try and invalidate or downplay the Ronan vs Gamora fight.

My question was: Do you have scans of him doing this with WITHOUT taking ANY damage. Being able to regenerate doesn't count, cuz that's what he does. Seriously, do you speed read through replies (If so, I suggest you get more practice before doing it in a debate)? I mean it almost feels like you're skipping through the more important portions of a reply on purpose....

All the fallacies in the world doesn't change the fact that Gamora is better is virtually every area of this particular fight. I'm not sure how in your right mind you can argue Wolverine is more skilled than Gamora. So when it reference how many MA forms he's mastered in the universe... you just consider that hyperbole? Funny enough though, Wolverine... doesn't even have that supposed "hyperbolic" statements. You would think with all his appearance and need to wank him so, it would've happened... yet it hasn't. I wonder why? Maybe because Marvel has made it clear through narration and depiction that Gamora is another skill level compared to Wolverine. Fact. The fact that you even argue this point, tell me all I need to know. The point is, Gamora is superior in virtually every area and she wins this fight convincingly

He doesn't?

The best there is at what he does.

haw-som

this is gotten out of hand..

not a single person can provide any scans or prove of her supposed superiority that logan hasnt surpass in one way or another..facepalm

if we want hyperbole logan is the most feared being to the brood he is their boogey man...

Logan has said it himself he has trained with gods and aliens alike..
his fighting skills are tied to his soul and past lifes..