Kain vs little Gauntlet

Originally posted by Burning thought
Can you show this? also nice bias, Screams played 1 game with Kain in thats not even relevant to this version although your wrong in your statement.

YouTube video
From about 4:00 onward. Ganondorf dodges arrows again, and blocks or evades every foreseeable attack, only being caught off-guard in very short counter windows after his attacks.

Note also that in both cases, the only reason he's injured at all is due to Link having the empowered, glowing Master Sword.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Actually, all evidence says your wrong, like Kain needing to impale the Hylden Lord, for example?

He moves farther, and before they even realise he's moved he's killed one of them.

Those are all gameplay abilities, sorry boyo. Either accept all gameplay abilities, or none. No favouritism.

Which gives Kain even less chance than before against Ganon who's magic resistance is blatantly off the charts and well above anything that can be found in LoK.

Its the first time we see him canonically striking the Hylden lord.

How do you know they did not realise? and no your wrong, I just watched the scene and the block hes chained to is perhaps a meter, if that away from the first sage. Sages who do nothing. The same scene shows Ganon is a slow thinker or indecisive in combat because he stands there for what looks like ages while they power up some mirror. Hes a poor fighter.

Mechanics are not the same as abilities, "boyo".

Off the charts? based on what exactly? and 3 sorcerors in LoK replicated the trueforce effect on the Golden land in a region passively, Kain was immune to its power so I dont think you have grounds to say anything of the sort. Kain has powerful magic which he could make stronger via regulation anyway and Ganon has no resistance against it. Hes never faced powers like it before so hes dead as is Kratos and possibly Demitri if Kain uses it.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
YouTube video
From 2:25, Ganondorf is literally untouchable. He somersaults over arrows, and blocks any strike from in front, above, and behind.

YouTube video
From about 4:00 onward. Ganondorf dodges arrows again, and blocks or evades every foreseeable attack, only being caught off-guard in very short counter windows after his attacks.

Note also that in both cases, the only reason he's injured at all is due to Link having the empowered, glowing Master Sword.

Ok this is more like it, some evidence. The only problem is that their both gameplay, gameplay mechanics that is. Mechanics that are controlled by balance, like the number of strikes either of them can take. If this was a cutscene or something then it may have been useful.

Also dodging a character you can see is not necesserily reacting to the actual attack, it could be reacting to subtle movements, the aim of their weapon or predicting their attack.

Originally posted by Burning thought

Your the one I wanted to argue with about Demitri, you know about him. What are his current feats, what are the specifics of the Pyron fight?

We have been over this before, tho.

1. He can teleport

2. Travel through dimensions at will.

3. Fast enough to appear completely invisible for short periods.

4. At only 80% of his power he can surround his entire castle in an energy field that blocks out sun.

5. His form from 50 years ago can stand in front of Belial who has an energy field of one million degrees Celsius

6. He can survive time space destroyin' attacks.

7. He can drain life force from others

8. Near instant regeneration.

9. He absorbed Pyron, thus increasin' his power to untold levels beyond any of the forms he has feats for.

10. He can transform his foes into defenseless dames.

Nothin' has changed. I still think he stomps Kain wit utter ease.

Originally posted by No End N Site
We have been over this before, tho.

1. He can teleport

2. Travel through dimensions at will.

3. Fast enough to appear completely invisible for short periods.

4. At only 80% of his power he can surround his entire castle in an energy field that blocks out sun.

5. His form from 50 years ago can stand in front of Belial who has an energy field of one million degrees Celsius

6. He can survive time space destroyin' attacks.

7. He can drain life force from others

8. Near instant regeneration.

9. He absorbed Pyron, thus increasin' his power to untold levels beyond any of the forms he has feats for.

10. He can transform his foes into defenseless dames.

We have but not using canon sources, like a video or something. The last time you posted that list, I realised Kain has most of those powers and more besides. Although I would like to see evidence of 3. 6. was before he was weakened and its hard to gauge how this makes him durable, this could be magic resistance, a special kind of resistance etc. Time/space afaik does not have a physical durability.

9. Is this proven? the darkstalkers wiki also made by fans says something like that its not actually conclusive that Demitri actually gains vast amounts of power from absorbing Pyron, only that it "did" strengthen him. The fact he beat Pyron kinda makes it null.

1. This is indeed spite.
2. The Reaver needs to pierce to reap the soul, also on a weak enemy.
3. Ganon's speed scene (TP) was not that fast, above human maybe but not by far.
4. Blood shower iirc like his TK targets one opponent at a time. His shower takes some time to kill a mook, all the while the other two will be stupid not to take advantage of this opening.

How come some gameplay feats are glomped on and others are brushed aside?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ok this is more like it, some evidence. The only problem is that their both gameplay, gameplay mechanics that is. Mechanics that are controlled by balance, like the number of strikes either of them can take. If this was a cutscene or something then it may have been useful.

Also dodging a character you can see is not necesserily reacting to the actual attack, it could be reacting to subtle movements, the aim of their weapon or predicting their attack.

Originally posted by BloodRain
1. This is indeed spite.
2. The Reaver needs to pierce to reap the soul, also on a weak enemy.
3. Ganon's speed scene (TP) was nott that fast, above human maybe but not by far.
4. Blood shower iirc like his TK targets one opponent at a time. His shower takes some time to kill a mook, all the while the other two will be stupid not to take advantage of this opening.

How come some gameplay feats are glomped on and others are brushed aside?

2. Wheres your evidence for this? gameplay mechanics?
4. False, thats blood gout, Blood shower affects all enemies in the area, Kain can only drink 4 people at the same time however, the rest just bleed to death.

Gameplay feats are not the same as gameplay mechanics, the base use of a player characters ability is often canon to what the ability actually does.

Ok this is more like it, some evidence. The only problem is that their both gameplay, gameplay mechanics that is. Mechanics that are controlled by balance, like the number of strikes either of them can take. If this was a cutscene or something then it may have been useful.

Off the charts? based on what exactly?

As for Ganon's crossing the room being only a "meter". The sword in his chest alone is longer than a meter. Let's have a look at some screenshots.

HM! That's in less than 0.2, going by the Sage's utter failure to so much as move.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
It's not mechanics, Ganondorf can be struck in other stages of fights. It is at this point where he gets serious. In WW, this is even signified with a cutscene showing Ganondorf ramping up his efforts, and Zelda acknowledging that the only way to harm him is through an indirect attack.

That first sentence outlines that it is a gameplay mechanic, its not canon if your showing me him blocking attacks that the player is using against him is it. Because player actions are irrelevant in the actual gameplay in a fight. Thats how the developers chose that fight to go and the balance and gameplay mechanics come into effects in all gameplay battles. Him being struck at times of weakness, but not when hes actually blocking blows is a mechanic as a game level has "stages" against a boss.

Kinda like how in GoW 3 if youve played it in the final fight

Spoiler:
Has Kratos beating up Zues, slashing him and all the rest of it with his BoE when the Blade of Olmypus is his canon killing weapon of any use

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Blocking arrows and sword strikes is just as much an ability Ganon demonstrates as Kain's dimensional teleport, none or both. No bias.

Totally resisting the power of the magic arrows, barring the light arrows which at best stun him, being struck with his own magic and shrugging it off, having the master sword stuffed into his face and not dying, ect.

As for Ganon's crossing the room being only a "meter". The sword in his chest alone is longer than a meter. Let's have a look at some screenshots.

HM! That's in less than 0.2, going by the Sage's utter failure to so much as move.

Thats not true at all, a boss a player fights like Ganon is under gameplay balance. Hence why Ganon is not moving as quickly as you see him go in the cutscene against the sages, because a player just cannot play against such speeds. Its all mechanics. It doesnt matter what technique you use, I bet theres only one combination that actually works if any until hes weakened and at a stage the gameplay mechanics allow him to be harmed.

none of that is impressive magic resistance at all, he was turned to stone by the MS and was sliced by it anyway. Magic arrows, light arrows and his own magic are not impressive at all, infact less impressive.

As I said, a meter, perhaps a little more away. kains been calculated consistently at about 0.16-0.18 by several people, 0.2 was the max for Kain. Based on the slowest he can be, a lunge by either, kain is much quicker. Kain would react sooner as well, Ganon will not even percieve kain until 0.5, Kain can do this all at 0.2.

Difference is, this is in a form that has few durability feats, if any so its not like he can take anything from Kain. kain can shrug off Ganons attacks, although Kratos could indeed splatter Kain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
That first sentence outlines that it is a gameplay mechanic, its not canon if your showing me him blocking attacks that the player is using against him is it. Because player actions are irrelevant in the actual gameplay in a fight. Thats how the developers chose that fight to go and the balance and gameplay mechanics come into effects in all gameplay battles. Him being struck at times of weakness, but not when hes actually blocking blows is a mechanic as a game level has "stages" against a boss.

Kinda like how in GoW 3 if youve played it in the final fight

Spoiler:
Has Kratos beating up Zues, slashing him and all the rest of it with his BoE when the Blade of Olmypus is his canon killing weapon of any use

.

Some games go that route of showing only the base weapons or costumes in cutscenes, purely because with pre-rendered cutscenes you can't predict what the player will have equipped, and the only sensible equipment to render is the base.

Not so with Zelda. Even if you try to use other weapons, Ganondorf will block them all, or simply be unaffected. It has also been established in series canon that only the Master Sword can stop Ganondorf.

Ignoring character actions in-game is patently absurd. Either you debate games, or you debate cutscenes. This is the games vs. forum.

Originally posted by Burning thought
2. Wheres your evidence for this? gameplay mechanics?
4. False, thats blood gout, Blood shower affects all enemies in the area, Kain can only drink 4 people at the same time however, the rest just bleed to death.

2. Didn't we go through this?
4. I see, well, if its range is anything alike it will be difficult to have them in the same small area at the same time.

Oh and Ganon move roughly 5/6ish meters in the scene.

none of that is impressive magic resistance at all, he was turned to stone by the MS and was sliced by it anyway. Magic arrows, light arrows and his own magic are not impressive at all, infact less impressive.

As I said, a meter, perhaps a little more away. kains been calculated consistently at about 0.16-0.18 by several people, 0.2 was the max for Kain. Based on the slowest he can be, a lunge by either, kain is much quicker. Kain would react sooner as well, Ganon will not even percieve kain until 0.5, Kain can do this all at 0.2.

Difference is, this is in a form that has few durability feats, if any so its not like he can take anything from Kain. kain can shrug off Ganons attacks, although Kratos could indeed splatter Kain.

1. All of them are more impressive and on a larger destructive scale than LoK magic.
2. Perhaps a little more? That's multiple meters in less than human reaction time allows for, and Ganon's demonstrated time and time again his perception is above human levels, nice try.

Kain cannot do squat in 0.2, you're using dimensional teleport again, which is a non-feat.

3. Kain is too weak to harm Ganon, Ganon's plenty strong enough to destroy Kain.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Not gonna lie, this entire section made me laugh pretty hard.

1. All of them are more impressive and on a larger destructive scale than LoK magic.
2. Perhaps a little more? That's multiple meters in less than human reaction time allows for, and Ganon's demonstrated time and time again his perception is above human levels, nice try.

Kain cannot do squat in 0.2, you're using dimensional teleport again, which is a non-feat.

3. Kain is too weak to harm Ganon, Ganon's plenty strong enough to destroy Kain.

Whats that supposed to be? some passive ad hominem or something? 🙄 its overused and boring.

1. No their not, not at all. infact most of them are featless. And as I said, LoK magic can recreate an expanding version of Ganons trueforce wish.

2. lol, your using that as reaction time now? thats just movement speed and its slower than Kain. And hes not demonstrated anything, in that same vid hes demonstrated hes slow and indecisive in combat and decides not to do anything in the seconds the sages hit him with the sealing mirror.

Yes he can, several people have gauged Kain moving a few meters in under 0.2 as well. Dimentional teleport only secures the fact kains got reaction time on the same level as his speed, unlike most characters.

3. False.

Originally posted by BloodRain
2. Didn't we go through this?
4. I see, well, if its range is anything alike it will be difficult to have them in the same small area at the same time.

Oh and Ganon move roughly 5/6ish meters in the scene.

2. Probably, but obviously its not resolved.

4. If he drains any one of them hes gaining their physical stats. If he gets Kratos who is arguably the easiest then hes more or less even more immune to harm than usual and gains titan beating strength. Considering Kains their only target their likely going to be close to him.

That screenshot is redundant because Ganon stretches the chains to their limit as he breaks them. That shot shows him not struggling.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
That's utterly ridiculous.

Some games go that route of showing only the base weapons or costumes in cutscenes, purely because with pre-rendered cutscenes you can't predict what the player will have equipped, and the only sensible equipment to render is the base.

Not so with Zelda. Even if you try to use other weapons, Ganondorf will block them all, or simply be unaffected. It has also been established in series canon that only the Master Sword can stop Ganondorf.

Ignoring character actions in-game is patently absurd. Either you debate games, or you debate cutscenes. This is the games vs. forum.

But their not character actions, their player actions. Just because I decide to strike Ganondorf from a certain angle, or with a certain ability does not make it canon or even as a gaugable mechanic. Every boss in gaming (I say this loosly) has a mechanic in how to beat it, God of War, DMC. They all have a series of actions and mechanics and its the same here. Dorf should be far faster in this fight if hes as quick as he was in that cutscene, Kratos should be able to ignore beating on someone and just go straight to ripping their head off with his canon strength, Dante is fast etc etc.

Gameplay mechanics, if its something an actual player does thats scripted then it may make sense.

And yes, the MS is Ganons weakness, other weapons may be ineffective in Hyrule that does not have any connection to his speed though so I am not sure why you brought it up.

They are player actions, through a character. That has nothing to do with whether or not a character can do them, because if the option is there for the player, the character is obviously capable.

By extension, if a reaction to something a player does (and therefore a character can do) remains consistently the same, i.e. dodging arrows and blocking all but the most carefully-timed of strikes, the reactor is obviously capable of the reaction. This is even more apparent when the game intends for the player to perform precisely those actions that trigger those reactions, i.e. attacking with the Master Sword.

Which is a very long-winded way of saying that Ganondorf's blocking and evasion feats in fights are indeed canon, and cannot be ignored for the sake of Kain's safety.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
They are player actions, through a character. That has nothing to do with whether or not a character can do them, because if the option is there for the player, the character is obviously capable.

By extension, if a reaction to something a player does (and therefore a character can do) remains consistently the same, i.e. dodging arrows and blocking all but the most carefully-timed of strikes, the reactor is obviously capable of the reaction. This is even more apparent when the game intends for the player to perform precisely those actions that trigger those reactions, i.e. attacking with the Master Sword.

Which is a very long-winded way of saying that Ganondorf's blocking and evasion feats in fights are indeed canon, and cannot be ignored for the sake of Kain's safety.

That does not excuse the fact their uncanon player actions. Also no, thats not necesserily true, every game shows even normal humans surviviing daft amounts of strikes just because their bosses. Or doing things that would never make sense, what makes Ganon, Zeus, Echidna, the Elder God commit the same foolish tactic over and over again and get beaten by the hero is a gameplay mechanic based on stages in a fight set by gameplay rules.

Also no, their only capable of the reaction in a gameplay mechanic because the game does not want you to beat the boss so easily, its the same with all bosses stated above, they work in stages. According to your logic, Kratos has to slash Zeus over and over and over again to weaken him before he can punch him......no, thats just a mechanic.

Their not "canon", their just scriped gameplay mechanics. The same logic would claim that characters used by players are immortal because they can restore themselves through checkpoints. Also this is nothing to do with Kains safety, what you showed me is Ganon dodging aim and movements, not necesserily arrows and sword strikes. Kain moves and reacts at far greater speeds and uses powers Ganon cannot dodge.

Their not "canon", their just scriped gameplay mechanics.

Also this is nothing to do with Kains safety, what you showed me is Ganon dodging aim and movements, not necesserily arrows and sword strikes.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Nah. By this logic dimensional teleport is ascripted gameplay mechanic. You're using mechanic and ability interchangably depending on your own bias. Consistently blocking several sword strikes in a row from Link is not blocking "aim"

no your just claiming thus. A Player character is rarely under the effects of gameplay balance, a PC can be invincible or ridiculous quick (Rage of Spartans, Quicksilver) or destroy armies of enemies with ease. A scriped ability, that the player does not control is not under the effects of gameplay mechanics. Ganons decisions in gameplay are also not canon, because their also based on player actions.

Yes it is, blocking aim is based on predicting an opponents strike nad tbh using gameplay like you are, Links strikes are nearly as predictable as Ganons even for a player. Link is fully in sight and Ganon has all his senses to block Link as he comes at him conciously. He wouldnt have this advantage agains Kain who in 0.2 will kill him before his senses have even kicked in.

2. We all know the general point so.... blah.
4. He's taking physical powers now?

I took in the chain for the distance. Not a reaction feat however.

Dimensional teleport =/= reaction times either, people need to sort out what can be taken gameplay wise.

A Player character is rarely under the effects of gameplay balance

A scriped ability, that the player does not control is not under the effects of gameplay mechanics. Ganons decisions in gameplay are also not canon, because their also based on player actions.

Link is fully in sight and Ganon has all his senses to block Link as he comes at him conciously. He wouldnt have this advantage agains Kain who in 0.2 will kill him before his senses have even kicked in.