Originally posted by The Nuul
I think the OP meant Angel before his second mutation, the original version?
Well, I took it to mean not archangel form, as he now can switch back and forth them at will.
His feathery form with natural skin colour has had a hf for a while and went by the codename of angel, so I think it's fair game
Originally posted by 753
You are familiar with PIS, CIS jobbing and character shields right? Punisher is a baseline human, him shrugging off class 10 punches means SM was either holding back a lot or the writer simply threw logic out the window to tell a story - PIS - If I'm not mistaken SM is > class 10 too.
No you don't call it PIS when you don't like it. That is ridiculous. Just because somebody is regarded as being human doesn't mean that they can't take superhuman levels of damage. Hell Elektra is considered to be human but has psychic powers.
It really doesnt matter if hes called human, hes showings indicate that he has enhanced damage soak.
Originally posted by 753
I recall him stunning wolverine with a baseball bat to the nuts, comic relief + pis, wolverine walks grenade explosions off and pushes through far more pain on a regular basis. If there is another time he stunned logan with the kind of equipment he's been given here please show me.
Again whats with the PIS because you don't like it. Punisher kicks Wolverine to the ground with a kick in Punisher and Wolverine series, and theres this,
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1365/11891738.jpg
Originally posted by 753
Punisher must have also become the stealthiest man on the planet to do something a couple of people wearing tech that made them undetectable to all natural, magical, technological and psionic senses, couldn't do, let alone in the jungle - is that the story logan gets an arrow shot through his ear and it comes out the other side of his skull? prime example of bad writing if it is.
No its Punisher war journal. Wolverine didn't know Punisher was looking for him but Wolverine still has enhanced senses. Lots of people have sneaked up on Wolverine.
Originally posted by 753I haven't read the doom event, what happened there? For this fight they start 6 meters apart and are in a closed environment, so he won't disappear in front of angel's eyes.
He doesnt diappear in fron of his eyes. Its a building he can run and hide. Punisher ahs given DD the slip Angel doesnt stand a chance.
Originally posted by 753
Not only do I recognize punisher's h2h skills, I gave him 6/10 in the no flight scenario against an opponent with a reach advantage (wingspan), superstrong wings that can oneshot a man and a hf. Although the more I think about it, the less I see angel losing it, because of his hf.With flight, punisher cant touch angel, so I believe my assesment of the outcome of this fight in the first page is pretty accurate.
No its not accurate you think he going to stand there and let angel throw stuff at him, and yes he stand a decent chance of getting him with his knife.
It is either pis or SM holding back, because he could crush punisher's skull in his hands.
Punisher had prep when he did that to logan, he hunted him down and logan fought like a moron in a low showing. He underestimated the punisher, but would still have killed him at the end if it werent for the lols moment with the punisher's gay/bodybuilding mags. that baseball bat stunning him is a very low showing too, superman gas station low, logan has tanked much worse like nothing. Kicking him back isn't stunning him, logan isn't that hard to punch or kick back, but if he stayed down with a kick it's PIS because it flies in the face of his very long history of feats. In a straight up fight, logan would wreck him. And again I gave him the majority in the no flight fight, so I'm not underestimating his fighting prowess.
With the kind of tech doom has in that armour I find it difficult to believe he couldnt scan the whole building and find him, but because the armour has and lacks whatever gadgets the story needs it to, I suppose it's legit.
Just what do you see punisher doing for cover that warren can't possibly hit him? I doubt he can take angel down with a knife throw, Angel is a master maneuverer, even in closed space, and the wings are very fast and very strong, more than enough to blow that thing away like nothing. Warren is a decent fighter himself specially when airborn.
Originally posted by 753
It is either pis or SM holding back, because he could crush punisher's skull in his hands.
Just because he could crush his head in his hands doesnt mean that he can kill Punisher with a punch. Punisher has enhanced durability and people with enhanced durability can take class 10 shots.
Originally posted by 753
Punisher had prep when he did that to logan, he hunted him down and logan fought like a moron in a low showing. He underestimated the punisher, but would still have killed him at the end if it werent for the lols moment with the punisher's gay/bodybuilding mags. that baseball bat stunning him is a very low showing too, superman gas station low, logan has tanked much worse like nothing. Kicking him back isn't stunning him, logan isn't that hard to punch or kick back, but if he stayed down with a kick it's PIS because it flies in the face of his very long history of feats. In a straight up fight, logan would wreck him. And again I gave him the majority in the no flight fight, so I'm not underestimating his fighting prowess.
1. He did not have prep. He didn't plan what he did before hand they were fighting in a shopping centre. It was on the fly much like this situation.
2. Stop screaming PIS. Its not a low showing at all. Hes already beaten Wolverine before and hes fought against Daken with a broken leg. Hes also fought wolverine 2 other times are all those examples PIS.
3. Wolverine was on his knees briefly and skilled martial artists can stun Wolverine breifly its not PIS.
Originally posted by 753
With the kind of tech doom has in that armour I find it difficult to believe he couldnt scan the whole building and find him, but because the armour has and lacks whatever gadgets the story needs it to, I suppose it's legit.
It was all over New York.
Originally posted by 753
Just what do you see punisher doing for cover that warren can't possibly hit him? I doubt he can take angel down with a knife throw, Angel is a master maneuverer, even in closed space, and the wings are very fast and very strong, more than enough to blow that thing away like nothing. Warren is a decent fighter himself specially when airborn.
You don't know anything about Punisher do you. Hes a trained marine, when it comes to cat and mouse its job. Hell Punisher has given Daredevil the sleep, what makes you think Punbisher can't jump Angel? I shouldn't even be having to explain this.
Angel isnt a slouch either in the combat training department.
angel was trained by Xavier in aerial maneuvers and combating superhumans with various powersets.
Punisher surviving past metas that can easily kill him doesnt mean he can beat another who is willing to ko,kill him using the best of his abilities.
Pun surviving for a while against daken who was toying with him the whole time doesnt mean squat for his own ability to fight him on even footing...
same goes for logan who was barrel rolling through his attacks in instead of using his full potential in a combat situation.
same with spiderman, Pun not being killed by a punch from the spider doesnt mean he has enhanced durability just that spideman held back significantly.. punisher taking a full 10 ton punch is illogical for his powerset which is no powers..
i think punisher does have superior durability above ur average olympic lvl human perhaps peak durability but that isnt much...
Originally posted by Deadline
Just because he could crush his head in his hands doesnt mean that he can kill Punisher with a punch. Punisher has enhanced durability and people with enhanced durability can take class 10 shots.1. He did not have prep. He didn't plan what he did before hand they were fighting in a shopping centre. It was on the fly much like this situation.
2. Stop screaming PIS. Its not a low showing at all. Hes already beaten Wolverine before and hes fought against Daken with a broken leg. Hes also fought wolverine 2 other times are all those examples PIS.
3. Wolverine was on his knees briefly and skilled martial artists can stun Wolverine breifly its not PIS.It was all over New York.
You don't know anything about Punisher do you. Hes a trained marine, when it comes to cat and mouse its job. Hell Punisher has given Daredevil the sleep, what makes you think Punbisher can't jump Angel? I shouldn't even be having to explain this.
Realistically, unless the class 10 holds back, his punches should at the very least ko him, not to mention ruin his face and break a jaw.
He did have prep, he sought logan out after he had teamed up with an old school mobster to take out a derranged boss. He ambushed logan and then goaded him into following him only to hit him at every turn. At the end he was still gonna end up dead. IIRC in that same story he blows logans face off with a shotgun and that barely slows him down, just to show the inconsistancy. Logan has tanked far worse like nothing, so I dont really see the point of claiming that is an average showing of his durabilty and damage soak. Would you even say simples blows like that would stun the punisher when you claim he can shrug off class 10 punches without pis? Logan has shrugged hulk blows off.
He has surprised DD with prep and traps, how would he magically disappear in plain view and then jump warren out of nowhere in a church? They start 6 meters apart, I dont see this turning into hide and go seek. so what if he is a trained marine? their world is a dime a dozen special forces units
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
Angel isnt a slouch either in the combat training department.angel was trained by Xavier in aerial maneuvers and combating superhumans with various powersets.
Er yeah but something tells me hes not more agile than Spiderman.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
Punisher surviving past metas that can easily kill him doesnt mean he can beat another who is willing to ko,kill him using the best of his abilities.
Thats a contradiction if he can survive them then it suggests they cant easily kill him. I think you might want to rephrase that.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
Pun surviving for a while against daken who was toying with him the whole time doesnt mean squat for his own ability to fight him on even footing...
...and now you've started making stuff up he wasnt toying with him the whole time. Defintely not on the rooftop. Even if he was he had a broken leg and had bandaged wounds from fighting Hoods men. He also was mentally broken down. Yes im afraid it means a whole lot.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
same goes for logan who was barrel rolling through his attacks in instead of using his full potential in a combat situation.
thats different Wolverine was holding back Daken wasn't.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
same with spiderman, Pun not being killed by a punch from the spider doesnt mean he has enhanced durability just that spideman held back significantly..
No it doesnt you dont get to decide that Spiderman was holding back when theres no proof thats what he was doing. He also took a full force punch from Leetha who at least class 10 as well. I guess she was holding back as well. Enough with the excuses.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
punisher taking a full 10 ton punch is illogical for his powerset which is no powers..
Well Elektra isnt supposed to have any powers either. I guess i'll just have to ignore all the times shes displayed psionic abilities.
Furthermore its a comicbook sometimes humans can display superhuman like ability.
Punishers durability has been described as supernatural ie he doesnt have SSS but for some reason his durability is enhanced.
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i think punisher does have superior durability above ur average olympic lvl human perhaps peak durability but that isnt much...
and you dont know what you're talking about again. Captain America has impressive durability.
Originally posted by 753
Realistically, unless the class 10 holds back, his punches should at the very least ko him, not to mention ruin his face and break a jaw.
Its a comicbook. facepalm I guess humans in the tekken universe shouldnt be able to jump off skyscrapers because its not realistic. Se how illogical that is
Originally posted by 753
He did have prep, he sought logan out after he had teamed up with an old school mobster to take out a derranged boss. He ambushed logan and then goaded him into following him only to hit him at every turn. At the end he was still gonna end up dead.
Lol seeking somebody out doesnt mean you have prep. Ambushing somebody doesnt mean you have prep.
Originally posted by 753
IIRC in that same story he blows logans face off with a shotgun and that barely slows him down, just to show the inconsistancy. Logan has tanked far worse like nothing, so I dont really see the point of claiming that is an average showing of his durabilty and damage soak. Would you even say simples blows like that would stun the punisher when you claim he can shrug off class 10 punches without pis? Logan has shrugged hulk blows off.
Thats completely illogical nobody is 100 percent consistent and I mean nobody. Spiderman can also take class 10 shots but can get stunned by trained humans does that mean every time he gets hurt and stunned by humans its PIS? Of course not and im sure hes taken more than class 10 shots.
Wolverine has been shown to be capable of being stunned by highly trained humans time and time again. Highky trained martial artists have shown time and time again they can use skill as a substitute for insane amounts of brute force.
Originally posted by 753
He has surprised DD with prep and traps, how would he magically disappear in plain view and then jump warren out of nowhere in a church? They start 6 meters apart, I dont see this turning into hide and go seek. so what if he is a trained marine? their world is a dime a dozen special forces units
He didn't disappear in plain sight he was hunting him over the city. My point is eventhough its not a city a church is still big enough for Punisher to sneak around and try and pounce. Angels perception is nowhere nears DDs.
*sigh* Punisher isn't a regular marine.
Originally posted by -Pr-
amazing how warren gets neutered just so the other guy can compete.also, he's had his healing factor for about a decade now.
If you're talking about me it looks like you're putting words into my mouth.
Angel is well trained but hes not as well trained as the Punisher. So what if hes got a healing factor is it as good as Wolverines? If Punisher can hang with people who have a better HF than Angel. Angels Hf isnt a factor.
Is Angel harder to hit than Daredevil and Spiderman. Nope.
Originally posted by Deadline
If you're talking about me it looks like you're putting words into my mouth.Angel is well trained but hes not as well trained as the Punisher. So what if hes got a healing factor is it as good as Wolverines? If Punisher can hang with people who have a better HF than Angel. Angels Hf isnt a factor.
Is Angel harder to hit than Daredevil and Spiderman. Nope.
i was talking about the thread maker, so no, not you.
and plus, it is a neutering if you take away his death form, which is a standard part of his powerset nowadays.
and in the air, he would be as hard to hit if not harder.
Originally posted by Deadline
Its a comicbook. facepalm I guess humans in the tekken universe shouldnt be able to jump off skyscrapers because its not realistic. Se how illogical that is
Yes it is a comic book and when we discuss these things we go by logic and common sense that arent always present there. Punisher has been koed by a lot less blunt force than a class 10 can dish out. He has no superhuman durabilty or hf and yet he takes punches that can shatter concrete pillars like nothing without visible damage or a ko. I believe it is more rational to think spider-man was holding back some and the punisher does not really have class 10 durabilty.
Originally posted by Deadline
Lol seeking somebody out doesnt mean you have prep. Ambushing somebody doesnt mean you have prep.
ambushing someone does not require prep? okdok
Originally posted by Deadline
Thats completely illogical nobody is 100 percent consistent and I mean nobody. Spiderman can also take class 10 shots but can get stunned by trained humans does that mean every time he gets hurt and stunned by humans its PIS? Of course not and im sure hes taken more than class 10 shots.Wolverine has been shown to be capable of being stunned by highly trained humans time and time again. Highky trained martial artists have shown time and time again they can use skill as a substitute for insane amounts of brute force.
That is precisely my point, their showings are all over the place but if we use their upper ones, they wouldnt be taken down like that. You are the one that stated the punisher's showings against wolverine prove he can incapacitate angel. They don't. Wolverine and angel have better showings than that. Although not all of them are pis, it's true, but punisher wasnt using pressure points or even particularly damaging attacks there.
Originally posted by Deadline
He didn't disappear in plain sight he was hunting him over the city. My point is eventhough its not a city a church is still big enough for Punisher to sneak around and try and pounce. Angels perception is nowhere nears DDs.
I know he didnt, and he wouldnt be able to, just like he wont be able to do it in the situtaion described in the op. Angel's perception is nowhere near DD's but he can see what is right in front of him.
Originally posted by Deadline
*sigh* Punisher isn't a regular marine.
Which is why bringing up the fact that he is a trained soldier isn't really an argument to begin with. It shows nothing.
Originally posted by -Pr-
but neither daredevil nor spider-man can fly, so it's a bad comparison anyway.
No its not a bad comparison because the skills you need to use against somebody backflipping around could be used against somebody who can fly. They are different but its not so different that you can't make a comparison.
Originally posted by 753
Yes it is a comic book and when we discuss these things we go by logic and common sense that arent always present there. Punisher has been koed by a lot less blunt force than a class 10 can dish out.
So has Spiderman.
Originally posted by 753
He has no superhuman durabilty or hf and yet he takes punches that can shatter concrete pillars like nothing without visible damage or a ko.
Um he does have a HF which pretty much reinforces my point that he has enhanced durability. His HF is much like Captain Americas, who also has impressive durability as well. His durabilty has also been descrbed as supernatural ( and I explained why its described as that, he has no enhancements but has the equivalent of enhanced durability)
Originally posted by 753
I believe it is more rational to think spider-man was holding back some and the punisher does not really have class 10 durabilty.
Except that he also got punched by Leetha who has at least class 10 strength and she was trying to kill him. Unless you want to argue that she was holding back as well. No its pretty unreasonable.
facepalm
Originally posted by 753
ambushing someone does not require prep? okdok
Because prep is going away and planning something over a relatively long period of time. You don't need to do that when you ambush somebody you can just sit and wait. In this thread Punisher can also ambush Angel by hiding in the church thats not really prep because hes making it up as he goes along. Which is what happened in that issue.
Originally posted by 753
That is precisely my point, their showings are all over the place but if we use their upper ones, they wouldnt be taken down like that. You are the one that stated the punisher's showings against wolverine prove he can incapacitate angel. They don't. Wolverine and angel have better showings than that. Although not all of them are pis, it's true, but punisher wasnt using pressure points or even particularly damaging attacks there.
Thats why its not a good point. You don't take the highier ones you take all their showings and you come to an average. Yes it pretty much does.
Originally posted by 753
I know he didnt, and he wouldnt be able to, just like he wont be able to do it in the situtaion described in the op. Angel's perception is nowhere near DD's but he can see what is right in front of him.
I see so if Punishers going to ambush Angels hes going to walk right up to him. Is that your point? So you're just going to ignore DDs senses...ok got it.
Originally posted by 753
Which is why bringing up the fact that he is a trained soldier isn't really an argument to begin with. It shows nothing.
No its a decent argument if you take it with everything ive said. Obvoulsy that training is going to help him alot and its helped him against people like Spiderman, Wolverine etc.
Originally posted by Deadline
Um he does have a HF which pretty much reinforces my point that he has enhanced durability. His HF is much like Captain Americas, who also has impressive durability as well. His durabilty has also been descrbed as supernatural ( and I explained why its described as that, he has no enhancements but has the equivalent of enhanced durability)
Originally posted by Deadline
Except that he also got punched by Leetha who has at least class 10 strength and she was trying to kill him. Unless you want to argue that she was holding back as well. No its pretty unreasonable.facepalm
faceplam all you want, look at what class 10 punches do in normal circunstamces, then look at what has wounded and koed the punisher in the past. punisher's capacity to push through the pain and injuries is very impressive, but with no hf, he should be koed at least by class 10 blows.
Originally posted by Deadline
Because prep is going away and planning something over a relatively long period of time. You don't need to do that when you ambush somebody you can just sit and wait. In this thread Punisher can also ambush Angel by hiding in the church thats not really prep because hes making it up as he goes along. Which is what happened in that issue.
prep is setting things up in advance, like setting a trap to ambush others, how long it takes has nothing to do with the concept itself. He did not make it up as he went along, although he obviously had to adapt to the situtaions as they arose, but he hunted logan down, was carrying a big bag of weapons and clearly had a battle plan from the beggining: he goaded wolverine into following him and then dished out his surprises, hitting and running. The sequence of weapons he uses on him shows a plan too.
Originally posted by Deadline
Thats why its not a good point. You don't take the highier ones you take all their showings and you come to an average. Yes it pretty much does.
IMO it doesnt, it's pointless to debate this any further.
Originally posted by Deadline
I see so if Punishers going to ambush Angels hes going to walk right up to him. Is that your point? So you're just going to ignore DDs senses...ok got it.
This, I'm relly puzzled about, what don't you get about what I'm saying? He WON'T ambush angel, because he CAN'T disappear in plain sight and they start 6 meters (20 ft) apart.
DD's sense are better but Angel can still see what is front of him as, once again, THEY BEGIN THE FIGHT 6 METERS APART IN FRONT OF EACH OTHER. punisher was hiding beforehand when dealing with DD
Originally posted by Deadline
No its a decent argument if you take it with everything ive said. Obvoulsy that training is going to help him alot and its helped him against people like Spiderman, Wolverine etc.
Obviously it's because of training that he does what he does, but his military background proves nothing about his skill levels themselves.
Originally posted by Parmaniac
(Punisher Annual 1 2009)
He says that to the Punisher.EDIT: Spider-man usually holds back against everyone except very powerful villains.
yup, and punisher looked like a rag doll in his hands when SM claimed to stop holding back. even then SM was being mind controlled in that story
