Pretty sad that Thor can damage Celestials, even bust a hole in the more powerful Exitar (Granted with the belt of strength but still) when three Skyfathers can't.
He was a good writer, but Thomas watered down the Gods (Specifically Odin) and f*cked with their history so much it was just ridiculous. He sold the Gods out to the Celestial's like whores.
Originally posted by Galan007
Scope-wise? I agree.That doesn't mean they aren't more powerful, though (as I'm sure you'd agree.)
It's sort of hard to say. That fight took place like what, 20-30 years ago? A lot has changed. Like Rage said, Thor has busted their armor, crushed their skull, a sliver of the Phoenix Force back by the power of a world (?) of mutants blew off Arshiem's Hand of Judgement, etc...
So THREE Skyfathers being unable to phase Arshiem is PIS. Also worth noting that those THREE skyfathers could only marshal enough power to "knock a world off it's orbit"? More PIS. Odin was busting galaxies at the time by himself. Adding in Zeus and Vishnu and all they could do is "knock a world from it's orbit"? Not buying it.
Originally posted by zopzop
It's sort of hard to say. That fight took place like what, 20-30 years ago? A lot has changed. Like Rage said, Thor has busted their armor, crushed their skull, a sliver of the Phoenix Force back by the power of a world (?) of mutants blew off Arshiem's Hand of Judgement, etc...So THREE Skyfathers being unable to phase Arshiem is PIS. Also worth noting that those THREE skyfathers could only marshal enough power to "knock a world off it's orbit"? More PIS. Odin was busting galaxies at the time by himself. Adding in Zeus and Vishnu and all they could do is "knock a world from it's orbit"? Not buying it.
Who are to say that it wasn't PIS that Thor could break a hole in Exitars armor, when his God Blast combined with the magnetic field on the planet couldn't even dent Arishem armor?
Originally posted by Utrigita
Who are to say that it wasn't PIS that Thor could break a hole in Exitars armor, when his God Blast combined with the magnetic field on the planet couldn't even dent Arishem armor?
What are you talking about, Thor never attacked Arshiem with a God Blast? Thor's God Blast crushed Exitar's skull which was made of even sturdier material than his shell!
So on panel : Full strength blow from Mjolnir > planet's magnetic field. Live with it.
@KuRuPT Thanosi
What was the LT's highest on panel showing of power? Don't come at me with "implied" garbage, I want on panel evidence.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It has been shown to you before Zop.. I'm not going through it again buddy. You can believe what you want.. but rest assured Odin and Seth are mere insects to the LT... with but a thought.. not even a gesture.. they would be wiped from existence.
Yeah, keep bringing it up then running away when I ask for evidence. How kind of you.
It's just too bad those "mere insects" on panel power output dwarfs the LT.
Originally posted by zopzop
It depends. Pre Crisis DC feats are insane I'll give you that, but Marvel is a whole other story.The Celestials which are supposedly above the Skyfathers don't have feats anywhere near as impressive as Odin does. Yet, Odin/Zeus/Vishnu knelt before Arshiem.
When Dark Phoenix rose, every adept on the planet felt it. Reed commented it's power rivaled that of Galactus (and this was at a time when it was weak and needed sustenance, that's why it ate the star AFTER making it go nova).
The Watcher commented that it was a Primal Force second only to the Creator himself.
So apparently more than a few people thought it was impressive, but comparing feats from Marvel characters from the late 70s early 80s with characters from DC in 2001 still isn't fair (feat inflation and all).
what makes you think dark phoenix has any chance of surviving imperiex prime galaxy busting attack when a Shi'ar laser cannon can take her down.
Originally posted by MrMind
feats haven't been exaggerated or inflate at all. some of the most powerful beings in marvel have been established in 80s and 90s. thanos with infinity gauntlet, beyonder in secreat wars, MJJ in crooked world.
it's fair because when we compare characters from dc and marvel we compare by their showings. not their tier in their own company.
The Beyonder has been retconned so many times it's not even funny. Bringing him up is not helping your argument at all. The IG wasn't some fly by night cosmic, it was meant to be the most powerful artifact EVER at the time. MJJ ultimately only warped the UK no? If I recall correctly he had to be stopped before his power grew.
what makes you think dark phoenix has any chance of surviving imperiex prime galaxy busting attack when a Shi'ar laser cannon can take her down.
During the DP storyline, it only lost when it wanted to. It was even stated on panel. It's loss vs Magneto was because it setup "psionic circuit breakers" to cut itself off from it's power as a precaution. It's fight with Prof. X, Prof. X commented on panel how he would have lost had Jean not fought herself.
It died by a Shi'ar canon because it wanted to kill itself.
And if the best Imperiex can do is bust a galaxy, he's just barely in Odin's league.
Originally posted by zopzop
The Beyonder has been retconned so many times it's not even funny. Bringing him up is not helping your argument at all. The IG wasn't some fly by night cosmic, it was meant to be the most powerful artifact EVER at the time. MJJ ultimately only warped the UK no? If I recall correctly he had to be stopped before his power grew.
During the DP storyline, it only lost when it wanted to. It was even stated on panel. It's loss vs Magneto was because it setup "psionic circuit breakers" to cut itself off from it's power as a precaution. It's fight with Prof. X, Prof. X commented on panel how he would have lost had Jean not fought herself.It died by a Shi'ar canon because it wanted to kill itself.
And if the best Imperiex can do is bust a galaxy, he's just barely in Odin's league.
Originally posted by MrMind
[B]that's why I was talking about pre-retcon beyonder in secret wars. It helped me make my case because what beyonder did in secret wars proved feats in nowadays isn't more impressive than 80's at all.
No, it doesn't help your cause because he showed up around 84-86 and got retconned a year or so later!
and just like I said what MJJ and IG did back in the day are still hard to surpass by characters nowadays.
The worse MJJ did on panel was warp an area the size of the UK! The IG story arc took place more than a DECADE after the DP Saga. So that's a long time for feat inflation to take place. Irony of ironies, the Gems have been retconned into a) only working in the universe they are native to and b) deriving their power from the Big Bang which Richard's equated with the PF!
still DP got destroyed. my point is there's no prove DP has high durability. characters like Galactus has powerful offensive attack along with high durability shown on panel. DP doesn't. unless you show high durability feats from dark phoenix you got no prove she can survive imperiex attack. and I do mean something more impressive than taking hits from colossus and gladiator
You mean how it was wanting to kill itself?! If the Infinity Being can commit suicide, why can't DP?
the best imperiex can do is bust a universe. but I doubt DP can survive galaxy busting attack whatsoever.
How would Imperiex bust a universe? Through sheer power output or by destroying the Earth or something and hence causing a chain reaction that destroys the universe. Because the level of power required to do those things varies VASTLY. Ps what was Imperiex's highest on panel feat? You know the guy that came 20+ years after DP was long dead?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Rage would you please show your boy here the light? Please
I'll explain this slowly so you can understand it :
ON PANEL - Odin and Seth (among others) have greater showings of power than the LT.
IMPLIED POWER - the LT > Odin/Seth, others, etc...
Do you understand now? So unless you got something ON PANEL, you need to stfu and leave me alone.
Originally posted by zopzop
No, it doesn't help your cause because he showed up around 84-86 and got retconned a year or so later!
it got retconned because beyonder was too powerful, so nothing beyonder does after the secret wars come close. that means almost none of the characters these days can surpass what beyonder did in secret wars. so you saying characters these days in marvel have more impressive feats is not true.
The worse MJJ did on panel was warp an area the size of the UK!
The IG story arc took place more than a DECADE after the DP Saga. So that's a long time for feat inflation to take place. Irony of ironies, the Gems have been retconned into a) only working in the universe they are native to and b) deriving their power from the Big Bang which Richard's equated with the PF!
You mean how it was wanting to kill itself?! If the Infinity Being can commit suicide, why can't DP?
How would Imperiex bust a universe? Through sheer power output or by destroying the Earth or something and hence causing a chain reaction that destroys the universe. Because the level of power required to do those things varies VASTLY. Ps what was Imperiex's highest on panel feat? You know the guy that came 20+ years after DP was long dead?
Originally posted by zopzopPersonally I think Thor being able to harm a Celestial literally defines PIS. I mean even a no name Celestial is supposed to possess power infinitely superior to that of Kubik. That said, no Skyfather, or even group of Skyfathers, should even register as a blip on a Celestial's radar, imo (as blatantly shown in the scan I posted) -- yet Thor can damage one all by himself? C'mon.
It's sort of hard to say. That fight took place like what, 20-30 years ago? A lot has changed. Like Rage said, Thor has busted their armor, crushed their skull, a sliver of the Phoenix Force back by the power of a world (?) of mutants blew off Arshiem's Hand of Judgement, etc...So THREE Skyfathers being unable to phase Arshiem is PIS. Also worth noting that those THREE skyfathers could only marshal enough power to "knock a world off it's orbit"? More PIS. Odin was busting galaxies at the time by himself. Adding in Zeus and Vishnu and all they could do is "knock a world from it's orbit"? Not buying it.
Hell, even when Odin dawned the Asgard-empowered super Destroyer armor to combat the Celestials, his amped disintegrator beam was *casually* blocked by Nezarr. I wouldn't think Thor's GB is more powerful than that, but whatevs... /shrug
Originally posted by MrMind
it got retconned because beyonder was too powerful, so nothing beyonder does after the secret wars come close. that means almost none of the characters these days can surpass what beyonder did in secret wars. so you saying characters these days in marvel have more impressive feats is not true.
It is true because the writers basically undid everything during the Secret Wars arc about a year later! They wasted no time retconning those feats into oblivion.
what about the fight with fury? it's in universal scale at least.
Was it? I thought it was just him morphing himself faster than MJJ could affect him with his reality warping powers. Not exactly universal.
what does retcon have anything to do with this? I really think it's stupid to say I can't compare the showings of the two characters because one of the character appeared decades ago. what kind of logic is that? even if marvel characters don't have impressive showings back then take it up with marvel. this is battle thread if we don't go by characters showing I don't know what else I could go by.
It's stupid because DECADES of time passed. That's like someone bringing up Hulk from 1980 vs 2000 Thor and comparing feats.
so agian I asked where's the phoenix durability feats? where's the prove that she can take imperiex attack?
It dove into a universe devouring black hole and with help contained it.
by sheer power alone.
and you want imperiex showings look up in the respect thread
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t520501.html
The best I see is galaxy busting. I want to know how exactly he'd destroy a universe. Busting galaxies != universe destruction.
Originally posted by Galan007
Personally I think Thor being able to harm a Celestial literally defines PIS. I mean even a no name Celestial is supposed to possess power infinitely superior to that of Kubik. That said, no Skyfather, or even group of Skyfathers, should even register as a blip on a Celestial's radar, imo (as blatantly shown in the scan I posted) -- yet Thor can damage one all by himself? C'mon.
But it's right there on panel! It hasn't been retconned or explained away so Thor's showing vs the Celestials still is valid.
Hell, even when Odin dawned the Asgard-empowered super Destroyer armor to combat the Celestials, his amped disintegrator beam was *casually* blocked by Nezarr. I wouldn't think Thor's GB is more powerful than that... /shrug
Yup, and in that very issue, the Celestials could NOT put down Thor. They blasted him repeatedly and he still got up and and hurled the Odin Sword at Arshiem. These guys just got through slagging the Destroyer and one-shotting the Uni-mind and they couldn't put Thor down. Sure toward the end, he was overwhelmed and about to get crushed (?) by Arshiem but still....
Originally posted by zopzopNot denying whether or not it happened on panel, but surely you can see why it might be construed as PIS. First Arishiem tanks a blast containing the power of three Skyfathers, then Odin dawns the Asgard-empowered Destroyer armor and gets completely dominated, then Thor harms a Celestial... By himself? A bit PISsy, imo.
But it's right there on panel! It hasn't been retconned or explained away so Thor's showing vs the Celestials still is valid.Yup, and in that very issue, the Celestials could NOT put down Thor. They blasted him repeatedly and he still got up and and hurled the Odin Sword at Arshiem. These guys just got through slagging the Destroyer and one-shotting the Uni-mind and they couldn't put Thor down. Sure toward the end, he was overwhelmed and about to get crushed (?) by Arshiem but still....
Originally posted by Galan007
Not denying whether or not it happened on panel, but surely you can see why it might be construed as PIS. First Arishiem tanks a blast containing the power of three Skyfathers, then Odin dawns the Asgard-empowered Destroyer armor and gets completely dominated, then Thor harms a Celestial... By himself? A bit PISsy, imo.
But it didn't quite happen as you describe. Thor never harmed any Celestial in Thor 300, sure he tanked their blasts like a champ, but he never hurt them.
About a decade later, Thor does indeed punch a hole in a Celestial's shell and then go on to shatter his skull.
Do we just dismiss it as PIS? No, it could be that the Skyfather's jobbed or had a low showing. It happens.
Because since that fight in Thor 300, the Celestials havent' been shown doing much, if anything impressive, while Odin went on to multiverse shaking heights. Hell before then Odin was a confirmed galaxy buster, a title no Celestial can lay claim to.
Originally posted by zopzopWasn't saying that Thor harmed a Celestial in that specific issue -- just that he has in general.
But it didn't quite happen as you describe. Thor never harmed any Celestial in Thor 300, sure he tanked their blasts like a champ, but he never hurt them.About a decade later, Thor does indeed punch a hole in a Celestial's shell and then go on to shatter his skull.
Do we just dismiss it as PIS? No, it could be that the Skyfather's jobbed or had a low showing. It happens.
Because since that fight in Thor 300, the Celestials havent' been shown doing much, if anything impressive, while Odin went on to multiverse shaking heights. Hell before then Odin was a confirmed galaxy buster, a title no Celestial can lay claim to.
Like I said, Odin's feats are better in terms of scope. However, he certainly isn't more powerful than a Celestial, overall.
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Unrelated question: Does anyone know if there are alternate versions of Celestials, or are all of their showings canon for them?