Originally posted by Lestov16
Killcount means nothing, because we don't know how Dutch would act in those circumstances (although, IMO, I think Dutch could replicate Rambo's feats based on how he did against the rebels and the Predator)
Rambo has more feats. So while they seem pretty equal it's logical to give Rambo the edge in an all-out battle.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Arnold is 6'2" and Sly is 5'10". That's a hell of a lot of reach for H2H, not counting mass.Keep in mind that Dutch is also a 'Nam vet and an overall veteran of a lot of conflicts. If anyone is a good match for Rambo, it's him.
Size would probably matter if they were somewhat close in skill. But all Dutch ever did was throw a couple of wild swings and haymakers (unless I'm forgetting something). Unless he's proven any decent sill, Rambo outskills him.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Size would probably matter if they were somewhat close in skill. But all Dutch ever did was throw a couple of wild swings and haymakers (unless I'm forgetting something). Unless he's proven any decent sill, Rambo outskills him.
Originally posted by Lestov16
Dutch takes this. Lifted a truck, impaled a man to a door with a simple knife throw, tanked a plasma cannon to the shoulder (which blew off Dillion's arm), a water fall, immediately started setting traps for the Predator despite the pain, took a beating from the Predator, and then immediately after outran and semi-tanked a mini-nuclear explosion. Rambo's tough, but IDK if he's that tough.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Size would probably matter if they were somewhat close in skill. But all Dutch ever did was throw a couple of wild swings and haymakers (unless I'm forgetting something). Unless he's proven any decent sill, Rambo outskills him.
Size usually always matters in a fight. That is why there are weightclasses in all combat sports. Dutch isn't some big muscle bound chump off the street.. he has just as much training if not more than Rambo. They are both special forces guys. So we're talking about very similiar training and styles. Just because Rambo fought some nobody with no feats in a street fight contest means very little. That doesn't prove he's some awesome fighter now. Dutch is bigger.. stronger... and most likely equally skilled.. and imo shown a higher damage soak. This is dutch's fight to lose.. not the other way around.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Size usually always matters in a fight. That is why there are weightclasses in all combat sports. Dutch isn't some big muscle bound chump off the street.. he has just as much training if not more than Rambo. They are both special forces guys. So we're talking about very similiar training and styles. Just because Rambo fought some nobody with no feats in a street fight contest means very little. That doesn't prove he's some awesome fighter now. Dutch is bigger.. stronger... and most likely equally skilled.. and imo shown a higher damage soak. This is dutch's fight to lose.. not the other way around.
Rambo has shown more fighting skills, though. Like when he fought that guy with sticks in Thailand and the big Russian dude in Rambo III.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Size usually always matters in a fight. That is why there are weightclasses in all combat sports. Dutch isn't some big muscle bound chump off the street.. he has just as much training if not more than Rambo. They are both special forces guys. So we're talking about very similiar training and styles. Just because Rambo fought some nobody with no feats in a street fight contest means very little. That doesn't prove he's some awesome fighter now. Dutch is bigger.. stronger... and most likely equally skilled.. and imo shown a higher damage soak. This is dutch's fight to lose.. not the other way around.
Size usually matters in a fight where both combatants are equally skilled. But it is not quite that effective when one combatant is a lot more skilled than you. Besides, Rambo isn't exactly a puny guy. If they fought in the ring they'd both be heavyweights.
Plus like I said, there's still no proof of Dutch's h2h skills. He impaled a guy with a knife. Great. It's h2h, no knife throwing here. He deadlifted the back of a truck. Great. It's h2h, not a powerlifting match.
Dutch is bigger, there's no proof that he's actually stronger. ANd there's no feat that shows that Dutch has great h2h skill. As for damage soak, well, Rambo has 4 movies of tanking a whole load of damage. A lot more than Dutch has.
Originally posted by Lestov16
Has Rambo ever fought anybody strong enough to easily deadlift a truck and durable enough to withstand a beating from an extraterrestial and moments later outrun/semi-tank a mini-nuke? If the Predator couldn't put Dutch down, how is Rambo supposed to?
I'm going to watch Predator again just to make sure, but IIRC Dutch didn't deadlift the entire truck, he simply lifted the back of the truck. And although that's an impressive feat, there are quite a few strong men out there that can easily replicate that feat.
Originally posted by FrothByte
I'm going to watch Predator again just to make sure, but IIRC Dutch didn't deadlift the entire truck, he simply lifted the back of the truck. And although that's an impressive feat, there are quite a few strong men out there that can easily replicate that feat.
Correct. He lifted the back end of the truck a few inches and sent it rolling downhill. Impressive, but not superhuman.
Originally posted by Lestov16
Has Rambo ever fought anybody strong enough to easily deadlift a truck and durable enough to withstand a beating from an extraterrestial and moments later outrun/semi-tank a mini-nuke? If the Predator couldn't put Dutch down, how is Rambo supposed to?
Better question. Has Dutch ever fought anyone at all? Aside from losing to the Predator.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Size usually matters in a fight where both combatants are equally skilled. But it is not quite that effective when one combatant is a lot more skilled than you. Besides, Rambo isn't exactly a puny guy. If they fought in the ring they'd both be heavyweights.
Except that Rambo isn't explicitly 'more skilled'. He just has more 'on screen' feats, of debatable value. It has been many years but I don't recall Rambo outfighting anyone of Dutch's size with training comparable to his own. Both Dutch and Rambo are Nam vets and vets of many battles. Dutch gets a laundry list of accolades in the beginning of Predator and the novelization which supplements the movie goes into even more detail. Plus as has already been noted, Dutch is wicked durable and tough. Rambo isn't going to just punch him three times and win. Aside from having inferior reach and presumably weight, if it ever goes to ground game or submission, Dutch will overpower Rambo rather than the reverse.
Plus like I said, there's still no proof of Dutch's h2h skills. He impaled a guy with a knife. Great. It's h2h, no knife throwing here. He deadlifted the back of a truck. Great. It's h2h, not a powerlifting match.
Actually, Spec Ops have to have high proficiency with combatives, and these skills translate into survivalability in real world situations. Dutch was not a mountain of muscle who couldn't do H2H. If anything, the implication is that he has comparable training and superior reach, weight, and durability, which doesn't bode well for Rambo.
It won't be a stomp for either party; it will be a brutal, bloody battle. But I give it to Dutch more often than not.
Dutch is bigger, there's no proof that he's actually stronger.
This is rubbish. When did Rambo lift a truck, bro? Even if it's only a few inches, he did it solo, and with the front end, IIRC, on a higher incline.
ANd there's no feat that shows that Dutch has great h2h skill.
Just ridiculous survival skills, a long and celebrated career as spec ops from the same era as Rambo, and muscles the size of small children. Really, I find the idea that anyone in such a role could be unused to or non-proficient in H2H/CQC methods to be ridiculous.
As for damage soak, well, Rambo has 4 movies of tanking a whole load of damage. A lot more than Dutch has.
Moar movies != moar durability. You must cite an instance against an instance.
For once moosiepoo is on the right side of the fence here... he pretty much covers most of the points in question.
I will only say again...
WHO did rambo beat h2h that was even noteworthy at all? The Vietnam big russian dude.. he didn't beat him h2h.. he pushed him against the electric device made for interrogation. Next, in Rambo three.... he faced another BIG guy.. and this time again.. he didn't defeat him h2h... He was losing the fight and ended up pulling a slick grenade move.. But that doesn't translate to this fight. In BOTH instances he was being overpowered by guys in the league of dutch.. and I would submit.. not as strong as dutch.
Lastly, there is this celebrated scene where he wins a street fight contest against some no name no feats guy.. I'm not sure what is suppose to be impressive about that. So what are we left with... As I said before..
Dutch has just as much training as Rambo if not more, and likely very similiar training at that. Dutch is bigger.. stronger.. longer reach and better durability imo. So again, it would be a good fight.. but it's Dutch's fight to lose.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
For once moosiepoo is on the right side of the fence here... he pretty much covers most of the points in question.I will only say again...
WHO did rambo beat h2h that was even noteworthy at all? The Vietnam big russian dude.. he didn't beat him h2h.. he pushed him against the electric device made for interrogation. Next, in Rambo three.... he faced another BIG guy.. and this time again.. he didn't defeat him h2h... He was losing the fight and ended up pulling a slick grenade move.. But that doesn't translate to this fight. In BOTH instances he was being overpowered by guys in the league of dutch.. and I would submit.. not as strong as dutch.
Lastly, there is this celebrated scene where he wins a street fight contest against some no name no feats guy.. I'm not sure what is suppose to be impressive about that. So what are we left with... As I said before..
Dutch has just as much training as Rambo if not more, and likely very similiar training at that. Dutch is bigger.. stronger.. longer reach and better durability imo. So again, it would be a good fight.. but it's Dutch's fight to lose.
You may not think Rambo's opponents noteworthy, but at least he did fight and beat someone in h2h. Multiple someones. Whom did Dutch beat in h2h? Whom did he fight where he showed some degree of h2h skill?
He got his ass completely beat up by the Pred. And it's not just being overpowered. I could understand that the pred is stronger. But did he show skill by ducking or dodging around the pred's lumberingly slow blows? Did he even throw a decent hook or cross or any sort of proper punch or kick? No. All he did was throw a slow haymaker backhand that any amateur boxer could easily avoid.
So again, show me any feat of Dutch that shows him having some degree of h2h skill.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Except that Rambo isn't explicitly 'more skilled'. He just has more 'on screen' feats, of debatable value. It has been many years but I don't recall Rambo outfighting anyone of Dutch's size with training comparable to his own. Both Dutch and Rambo are Nam vets and vets of many battles.
Rambo beat up an entire police precint barehanded. Granted it was a pretty small precint, but he was still outnumbered by armed and trained men and he beat them up displaying decent h2h skill. What has Dutch done to compare to that?
This is the MvF where we debate by screen feats. You can't assume people have skills just because they say they do.