Mace Windu vs. Darth Revan

I've been crawling through my 700 page Logic textbook and I have yet to find anything called ABC logic. To this day, the term mystifies me.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Just to make sure, this is your justification for the statement that there is no difference between Mace Windu's mastery of Vaapad and that of Sora or Bulq?

Originally posted by Galan007
I didn't say Vaapad is "the strongest form". I said that it retains an advantage in battle, because it's proprietor doesn't need to be facing a darksider for it's inherent 'pros' to still be present[/B]

^ I merely said that whether the opponent is a darksider or not, Vaapad "still has an advantage". You're the one who chose to interpret those four words like that.

However, it is reasonable to assume that Vaapad is the strongest form, because of the perks it offers (ie. taping it's user's, and an opponent's inner darkness.) But does brute power make it the best overall form? Well.... That's what this thread is meant to discuss.

Originally posted by Autokrat
I've been crawling through my 700 page Logic textbook and I have yet to find anything called ABC logic. To this day, the term mystifies me.

The problem arises when you take very broad assertions as the premises. For instance, Anakin is less than Obi Wan and Obi Wan is less than Count Dooku. Thus, Anakin is less than Dooku.

Basically, it is frowned upon here because of the temptation for gross oversimplification; all too often the general combat capability of a character is used rather than a specific quantity that can be compared objectively. (The comparison is almost always in the form of a judgment about someone being "greater than" or "less than" someone else.)

Yes, moreover as far as I remember it is nowhere stated that Sora's change of alignment has actually made him weaker.

Are you even thinking about the words you post at all?

ABC logic comes from Mathematics. Interestingly enough, it IS true in mathematics, but our point is, it isn't true here.

4 < X

X < Y

4 < Y

Is valid. The same cannot be said if X and Y are replaced with characters that might respond to a situation differently, or have skills that interact with each others' skills differently. (Picture a sniper versus a swordsman and then the swordsman against a berserker. Very different outcomes, regardless of initial fights.)

exactly. If X and Y are variables, you lose your connections between them. X and Y must be constants to make it true.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
4 < X

X < Y

4 < Y

Is valid. The same cannot be said if X and Y are replaced with characters that might respond to a situation differently, or have skills that interact with each others' skills differently. (Picture a sniper versus a swordsman and then the swordsman against a berserker. Very different outcomes, regardless of initial fights.)

But sometimes is does end up working.

Exar Kun < Sidious

Sidious < Mace due to Vapaad

Exar Kun < Mace also due to Vapaad (and Mace is probably more powerful anyway).

I don't know. I don't see Windu fairing well against Kuns amulet blasts.

Hewhoknowsall: I disagree with the result of your fight, AND, in the cases where it does work, it is simply coincidence. It has nothing to do with logic.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
So it is your contention that, in a universe where one's emotional state drastically affect one's ability to access the all-pervasive energy field that is so often the deciding factor in these fights, approaching it in an entirely new (and formerly forbidden) way would have absolutely no impact on one's combat capabilities?

That a form singled out for its reliance on one's state of mind to achieve its results, let alone the various metaphysical aspects that we all would love to tell another newcomer about, would be equally effective when implemented under a different paradigm?

As you can see there is no mention of anything OTHER than one's darkness (giving in and enjoying the battle, yada yada) being a factor in Vaapad, so I would be grateful if you could provide evidence that says otherwise.

Does it make even the slightest bit of difference to you that the form in question was developed specifically to take advantage of one man's philosophical outlook?

By "philosophical outlook" I assume RN meant one's personal view, and/or acceptance of the force - ie. good/bad, light/dark, yin/yang, etc.

In Vaapad's case it's user is free to channel the "philosophical outlook" of darkness. Make sense?

Mace developed Vaapad in order to channel his inner darkness, but apart from that? "To take advantage of" what "philosophical outlook" exactly?
So again, please prove that there actually are other factors relevant for Vaapad than one's darkness.

'The Jedi must also accept and embrace the fury of his opponent. This transforms a Jedi into half of a superconducting loop, the other half being the power of darkness, which passes in and out of the Jedi without touching him'

Galan007, thank you for the spot on interpretation. I would, however, appreciate it, DC, if you would be sure to respond to this post, rather than those that preceded it. Make sure that it is my ideas that you take issue with.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
Stop generalizing.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
I would NEVER argue against the overall relevance of the state of mind of a fighter during battle. However, you have to look at each case individually. You have obvious cases like Anakin where it had a visible influence on his fighting and actually made him weaker, and you have cases like Sora where not a single source is stating that he actually became weaker after his fall to the darkside (in fact he even stalemated Mace).

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork

"Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force" entry on Vaapad:
http://img13.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=jedivssith0134.jpg

As you can see there is no mention of anything OTHER than one's darkness (giving in and enjoying the battle, yada yada) being a factor in Vaapad, so I would be grateful if you could provide evidence that says otherwise.

Mace developed Vaapad in order to channel his inner darkness, but apart from that? "To take advantage of" what "philosophical outlook" exactly?
So again, please prove that there actually are other factors relevant for Vaapad than one's darkness.

For simplicity's sake, I have typed out the relevant passage:

"...channel my inner darkness into a weapon of the light. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must give himself over to the thrill of battle, enjoying the fight and the satisfaction of winning. A Jedi must also accept and embrace the fury of his opponent. This transforms a Jedi into half of a superconducting loop, the other half being the power of darkness, which passes in and out of the Jedi without touching him.

Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind, a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side."

Other examples of how Vaapad is "more than a fighting style" can be found in the novelization of Ep. III during which Mace had to "sink into Vaapad" to fight Sidious, or at nearly any point during Shatterpoint (which, admittedly, repeats many of the phrases included in this source).

Since we have established that Vaapad incorporates components more complex than simple sequences of bladework, it quickly becomes obvious that one's understanding and use of those components directly influences the output of the form. How, exactly?

In your own source, Mace notes that the Jedi "does not let the fury touch him," and that the form is also a "state of mind." A Jedi's approach to the Force is one of acceptance and trust (as was Kenobi's during the fight with Dooku in the opening of the Ep. III novelization) whereas a Sith uses an aggressive, domineering approach (ibid). This is the difference between "dark side" and "light side." When a Vaapad practitioner falls to the dark side, they experience a radical shift in the way they approach the Force. This is what I mean by "philosophical outlook." The Jedi is no longer using the same technique, in regards to the Force, as Vaapad's creator. For a form with such prominent metaphysical ramifications--including both a source of internal power ("channeling inner darkness into a weapon of the light"😉 and a reaction to aggression ("accepting and embracing the fury of his opponent"😉--it would be more unlikely that there be no effect. Mace himself notes that "Vaapad has mastered Sora Bulq." It would be foolish in the extreme to so lightly discount the opinion of the creator of the technique, especially one shown to be so proficient in all aspects of combat.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
This was a fun strawman. It is completely off topic and not even close to what I said, but it was fun. If you'll notice, the topic at hand is how a combatant's view of and approach to the Force impacts the usage of Vaapad--not the question of immediate emotions' effect on competence.

This clearly shows that one's relationship to the Force is of utmost importance in the operation of the style.

Other examples of how Vaapad is "more than a fighting style" can be found in the novelization of Ep. III during which Mace had to "sink into Vaapad" to fight Sidious, or at nearly any point during Shatterpoint (which, admittedly, repeats many of the phrases included in this source).

Since we have established that Vaapad incorporates components more complex than simple sequences of bladework, it quickly becomes obvious that one's understanding and use of those components directly influences the output of the form. How, exactly?

In your own source, Mace notes that the Jedi "does not let the fury touch him," and that the form is also a "state of mind." A Jedi's approach to the Force is one of acceptance and trust (as was Kenobi's during the fight with Dooku in the opening of the Ep. III novelization) whereas a Sith uses an aggressive, domineering approach (ibid). This is the difference between "dark side" and "light side." When a Vaapad practitioner falls to the dark side, they experience a radical shift in the way they approach the Force. This is what I mean by "philosophical outlook."

The Jedi is no longer using the same technique, in regards to the Force, as Vaapad's creator. For a form with such prominent metaphysical ramifications--including both a source of internal power ("channeling inner darkness into a weapon of the light"😉 and a reaction to aggression ("accepting and embracing the fury of his opponent"😉--it would be more unlikely that there be no effect. Mace himself notes that "Vaapad has mastered Sora Bulq." It would be foolish in the extreme to so lightly discount the opinion of the creator of the technique, especially one shown to be so proficient in all aspects of combat. [/B]

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
It's either my reading comprehension in the english language (which is not my native language, so please bear with me) or you're just rejecting my argument for no apparent reason. 😐

I am not just rejecting your argument for no reason, I was pointing out (in kind of a mean way) that it wasn't entirely on topic. I don't really care about bloodlust (which is the term we have for Anakin on a rampage) or other temporary factors. There is a fundamental difference between how dark side users and light side users use the Force, which directly impacts Vaapad's usage.

I haven't read Shatterpoint, but I still don't see how being a lightsider is a strict requirement in order to "sink into Vaapad".

That added complexity is in the realm of the Force, which applies to this:

There is nothing wrong with the quote "Vaapad has mastered Sora Bulq" itself because, to me, it means that Sora succumbed to the dark side due to his extensive use of Vaapad. Hence: It mastered him. However, I don't see how this quote could have any bearing on his fighting skills (this is the "philosophical bullcrap" I was talking about). It's comparable to Dooku, who was called the greatest failure by Yoda. Now, it would be foolish to directly apply this quote to Dooku's combat abilities and since Sora managed to stalemate Mace after his fall to the darkside, it leads me to believe that Sora's overall combat strength didn't suffer (as you concluded there might have been some changes in his fighting, but I'm talking about the overall efficiency which was my entire point in the first place) and, in my opinion, it's certainly not enough to deprive him of his Vaapad-mastery.

Sora's fighting style includes an aspect (Vaapad) that is contingent on his ability to use the Force. That is, Vaapad includes metaphysical aspects that have a real effect on the physical results of the form. Every single source we've yet examined indicates this. From your databank entry to the fight with Sidious, there is a notable, real effect that comes out of the user's frame of mind.

I do not think that this can be dismissed as "philosophical bullcrap." It has a non-trivial effect on the outcome of the fight. When that frame of reference changes, then so too does the inner kernel of power that drives the form. It no longer "creates a superconducting loop for the darkness" that "takes in the fury but does not let it touch the Jedi" because the user no longer remains detached from the fury. I believe that because Vaapad is so reliant on the "philosophical bullcrap" aspect, any change in that "bullcrap" translates directly to a change in the combat ability of the combatant.

^ Dumb ho.

Originally posted by truejedi
Hewhoknowsall: I disagree with the result of your fight, AND, in the cases where it does work, it is simply coincidence. It has nothing to do with logic.

Let's say X > Y because of reason Z
And Y > W simply because Y is superior
And, if reason Z still would apply in a fight between X and W (in this case it does since Exar Kun is a darksider), it would make sense to believe that X > W as well.
This isn't factoring in the amulets though.

Originally posted by Eminence
^ Dumb ho.