Is anyone interested in Star Wars the Old Republic?

Also Revans appearance has him talking like a stock Sith.

"The dark side offers power for power's sake. You must crave it. Covet it. You must seek power above all else, with no reservation or hesitation."

"The Force will change you. It will transform you. Some fear this change. The teachings of the Jedi are focused on fighting and controlling this transformation. That is why those who serve the light are limited in what they can accomplish.

"True power can come only to those who embrace the transformation. There can be no compromise. Mercy, compassion, loyalty: all these things will prevent you from claiming what is rightfully yours. Those who follow the dark side must cast aside these conceits. Those who do not-those who try to walk the path of moderation-will fail, dragged down by their own weakness."

Ew. Revan comes off more like a thug than a visionary. But that could just be it not matching up with my head-canon I suppose. I always though Revan would have a touch more subtlety. But I still liked Banes rise and his time in the academy. It was interesting and cool. Seeing him learn about and develop his powers was the highlight for me.

If we accept the movies as the highest canon authority, then I'm all for seeing evidence of the fact that Revan wasn't a Jedi who wielded dark side powers. The nature of the dark side is that it cannot be 'tamed'; it inexorably corrupts and taints the user, which is what makes it so dangerous. The idea that a person can deeply tap into that realm of the Force and control without a tax is silly. Chris Avellone was an admitted Revan fanboy and so I found Kreia's suggestion that he somehow bent the dark side to his will {Or didn't fall or whatever} to be an exaggerated claim originating from personal bias, in-universe and out. But yeah, that sounds a little too close to every Tom, Sith, and Harry for my liking.

Which is why I'll continue to stress the absolute importance of maintaining Revan's engimatic character. I've long since believed it would be a misstep to flesh him out absolutely and the excerpts I've read from the novel do nothing to change my mind.

I'm not saying he should be as awesome as Avellone made him. But even Kotor 1 had people acknowledging him as an utter genius whose subtlety and strategy caught the Mandalorians completely off-guard. I just thought he's be a little more..... intelligent? Not so cackling Evil Overlord-ish.

I completely agree. But everyone wanted a Revan novel and a follow-up to Kotor 2. Even we've said we wanted it at some point.

Revan should be lumped in with Thrawn as famous, iconic EU characters who are fleshed out by proxy; I don't want to actually get into their heads. Speculation, musings, and ruminations by their companions and confidants is enough.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Chris Avellone was an admitted Revan fanboy and so I found Kreia's suggestion that he somehow bent the dark side to his will {Or didn't fall or whatever} to be an exaggerated claim originating from personal bias, in-universe and out.

That's not what Kreia was really saying though. She was saying that he "sacrificed" himself to the dark side. Basically he, like Caedus, intentionally turned to the dark side to save the galaxy.

I'm still not sure I like that paradigm either, though. We can trace Caedus's truncated rise and fall {or more accurately: his fall, brief stop, and second harder fall} to see that he didn't save the galaxy by becoming a psuedo!Sith. I can understand that blind allegiance to the Jedi order and its code might have doomed the galaxy, but I see no reason for Revan to turn to the dark side or take up the mantle of Sith genuinely in order to help it.

Like Caedus, I think it was simply the self-rationalization of an arrogant intellectual who didn't truly comprehend that there are forces mightier than he. If it was true at all.

Revan had to do a lot of pretty evil stuff in the Mando war. I always thought that was what she was talking about. He had to intentionally sacrifice his soulin order to be capable of doing the things that needed to be done to save the galaxy.

Making morally ambiguous and ethically murky decisions doesn't automatically equate to the dark side imho, which is why I said this:

Me
I can understand that blind allegiance to the Jedi order and its code might have doomed the galaxy, but I see no reason for Revan to turn to the dark side[...]

I understand that, strictly speaking, he could not have waged that war and still been 'a Jedi'. But I've never looked at it as such a dichotomous choice: You're either Jedi or you're Sith.

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I always thought this part was the most telling on Revans personality. I get the impression of someone who is coldly logical, but still pretty goddamn evil. The computer attacks you if you even mention saving more lives in the long run, which doesn't gel with Kreias account of Revan, but I imagine he was pretty far gone at the point he originally found the Star Maps.

(I always got attacked because I pointed out the saving lives in the long run thing.)

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Making morally ambiguous and ethically murky decisions doesn't automatically equate to the dark side imho, which is why I said this:

I understand that, strictly speaking, he could not have waged that war and still been 'a Jedi'. But I've never looked at it as such a dichotomous choice: You're either Jedi or you're Sith.

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. The Darkside is a corrupting agent remember.

Definitely, which is what I meant when I said I found the idea that Revan intentionally ended up where he did to be laughable.

I think you can still make a conscious choice to walk the dark path in the first place however.

Neph
I think you can still make a conscious choice to walk the dark path in the first place however.

I'd argue that it's pretty much always a choice, with the possible exception of Malak's torture of Bastila. Anakin's descent is always viewed as the product of trickery and deception on the Emperor's part, but that's not a genuine account. Palpatine rigged the game, but Anakin chose to play.

So no, I have no problem with Revan choosing to follow the dark side in the sense that he wasn't really deceived into doing it {unless that was the extent of the Sith Emperor's involvement}. My problem stems from the idea that a.) he wasn't in over his head and b.) that he had to join the dark side to save the galaxy.

I buy neither of those.

Dark side corruption is a form of insanity as far as I'm concerned. A darksider has no real control over his or her actions in the sense that they aren't even the same person anymore. They become a different person in the same body. Given how easy it is to get sucked down that path, no one actually makes that choice either. No one says "hey I'm going to make this choice and become an evil psychopath." I also doubt most Jedi even realize they are making the wrong choice, if they are even aware they are making a "choice" at all.

^ Thats my belief as well.

Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
My problem stems from the idea that a.) he wasn't in over his head and b.) that he had to join the dark side to save the galaxy.

I buy neither of those.

Well thats your lookout. I personally would hate it if Revan got in over his head because that would make those ****ing assholes on the Council right all alone and man were they morons. And I really like the idea of him choosing to fall on purpose. It makes for a fantastic tragedy element.

I believe you're confusing the ideas. Revan choosing to serve the dark side, as Anakin and Luke and countless others did, doesn't mean that he planned for every development. It's like a person who chooses to indulge in an addictive substance-- such a decision can be made without a tempter whispering promises of pleasure and heightened sensation in one's ear, it can be something of a calculated decision-- and yet succumb to the addiction.

Revan might have chosen to abandon the Jedi ways because he felt they would not prepare the galaxy for whatever he felt was coming, but that doesn't mean that he didn't eventually get in over his head like most if not all dark siders.

Essentially, I'm saying that I like the idea that Revan chose a path different from the Jedi's. But I also like the idea that that decision would have consequences he neither foresaw nor particularly enjoyed.

Forgive the multiple grammatical errors, guys, I only slept four hours.

I doubt Revan thought that it would be sunshine and lollipops when he fell. He would have known damn well what it would do to him imo.

Neph
I doubt Revan thought that it would be sunshine and lollipops when he fell. He would have known damn well what it would do to him imo.

I'd say that most people-- mildly or slightly educated-- tend to know, academically, the effects of drug-use. Doesn't stop people from indulging it. Similarly, the nefarious nature of the dark side is well documented among Jedi, yet that doesn't stop wayward students like Dooku, Revan, Vergere, and so forth from experimenting or outright swearing allegiance to it.

Revan definitely knew the potential detrimental effects of the dark side, but that doesn't mean he was prepared for them. Knowing and experiencing are two fundamentally different things. There are some concepts academia simply can't prepare one for.

{I believe Lucius's fic actually begins with a lesson of similar nature.}

Was Ragnos a pure blooded sith or had pure jedi blood? I forget.

He was a half-breed.

Kaas City is stunning..