Harry Potter Magic versus the Force (Army thread).....

Originally posted by Borbarad
You do realize the difference between the event of having a gun pointed at you and the event of being confronted with a total alien form of attack? You also realize that, you know, we see Jedi being killed by blaster fire?

That doesn't make any kind of sense. Precog doesn't cancel out precog. If that would be the case, none of them would ever land a successful attack.

A situation which doesn't apply, when the opponents are mind-reading Wizards, capable of predicting each single step you'll make by, well, reading your mind. Voldemort has been noted as the - probably - greatest Legilimency user of all times, with Dumbledore being a candidate for the second place. Snape and Bellatrix are also quite good in the art as it seems.

You notice that I did debunk all "pro-Jedi" arguments without utilizing the premise of the prep time. Without prep time, the Wizards win. With prep time, they just win faster and more easily.

Hahaha, dude. Did you see the "probably" there? I don't see anybody else here, who spent most of his KMC time arguing Star Wars related topics. Do you? What do I know, spending most of almost six years here in the Star Wars versus forum, debating - surprise - Star Wars. Hell. How could I think about being more knowledgeable in that field, just because I did read about every single bit of SW literature released in the past 15 years?

And as Qui Gon said in Ep1 "allows you to see events right before they happen" or something to that affect. Don't think it matters which kind of attack it is, simply that the Jedi/Sith have an early detection. There's no reason to believe that since they're facing a wizard, their Precog will suddenly just not work. Yes, as I said "it isn't infallible, it can be overwhelmed"; most times it is, it's due to superior number of attacks though. Arguably, the strength of the Jedi factors in this too.

Yes, it actually does make sense with what is shown over and over with the Jedi being able to block more attacks than not. If they (Jedi/Sith) both have it, seems they're in a constant struggle to one-up each other with the more powerful breaking through.

So know the wizards can read minds and react to it in battle conditions when attacks are happening in mere moments ala Precog? Can you shown some screen evidence of this? Because that would give them Precog on par or possibly greater than the Jedi.

I actually failed to notice you 'debunking everything'.

Yes, I did see that. It's still an arrogant statement, dude.

Originally posted by Robtard
There's no reason to believe that since they're facing a wizard, their Precog will suddenly just not work. Yes, as I said "it isn't infallible, it can be overwhelmed"; most times it is, it's due to superior number of attacks though.

Yes, it actually does make sense with what is shown over and over with the Jedi being able to block more attacks than not. If they (Jedi/Sith) both have it, seems they're in a constant struggle to one-up each other with the more powerful breaking through.

.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Mhm, too much going at once TILTS it. You know, like death spells, vanishing spells, transfiguration, curses, jinxes, teleporters, Mind control in 3 different forms (legilimens, imperio and confundus), curses, jinxes and fiendfyre (It's been proven that wizard TK>>>>>Jedi TK, BTW, so no, a Jedi is NOT gonna seize control of fiendfyre.)

So Obi Wan was more powerful than Anakin? Neat.

Yeah, it's 20 versus 16 here. Pretty sure the Jedi have faced greater odds without crumbling and their precog being made null and void.

Where has it been "proven" that the magic telekinesis is greater than Force-TK? The train stopping? Was that telekenisis or was magic used to stop you know, the magic train, was telekenesis specifically shown or stated? I just remember the train stopping.

Ha, dude. If you'll notice in the fight they were fairly matched, blow for blow, push for push, about even. Anakin jumping when he was at a disadvantaged low-ground is why he lost. Call it pride, arrogance or anger. Better example would be Sidious raping Fisto and the others, he was far more powerful than they were.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yeah, it's 20 versus 16 here. Pretty sure the Jedi have faced greater odds without crumbling and their precog being made null and void.

lulz @ battle droids.

Where has it been "proven" that the magic telekinesis is greater than Force-TK? The train stopping? Was that telekenisis or was magic used to stop you know, the magic train, was telekenesis specifically shown or stated? I just remember the train stopping.

Ha, dude. If you'll notice in the fight they were fairly matched, blow for blow, push for push, about even. Anakin jumping when he was at a disadvantaged low-ground is why he lost. Call it pride, arrogance or anger. Better example would be Sidious raping Fisto and the others, he was far more powerful than they were.

Originally posted by Robtard
And as Qui Gon said in Ep1 "allows you to see events right before they happen" or something to that affect.

And then he got killed by Darth Maul...

Don't think it matters which kind of attack it is, simply that the Jedi/Sith have an early detection.

The fact that they are constantly surprised by all kinds of assaults started against them, should have told you, that your opinion is pretty wrong.

There's no reason to believe that since they're facing a wizard, their Precog will suddenly just not work. Yes, as I said "it isn't infallible, it can be overwhelmed"; most times it is, it's due to superior number of attacks though. Arguably, the strength of the Jedi factors in this too.

No. In the majority of situations it's overwhelmed by a single surprise attack. This is how Mace Windu is killed (surprise by Anakin), how the three Jedi with him were killed (suprised by Sidious), how most of the Jedi during Order 66 died (surprised by their own Clone Troopers), how Qui-Gon Jinn (suprised by Maul) and Darth Maul (surprised by Obi-Wan) lost their lives, much like Dooku (surprised by Anakin). And of course, it's the reason for Anakin losing his legs (via Obi-Wan).

And you may want to notice that "precog" was introduced here protect the Jedi against all kind of Wizard attacks, despite the fact that some of them are clearly not avoidable through precog (Imperius curse or altering the enviroment for example).

Yes, it actually does make sense with what is shown over and over with the Jedi being able to block more attacks than not. If they (Jedi/Sith) both have it, seems they're in a constant struggle to one-up each other with the more powerful breaking through.

Wow. You're clearly not pulling this out of your ass, since there is so much evidence for that on screen. The total amount of evidence being, actually, zero.

Let me have a look at the nice amount of force battles we see on screen. Yeah. They are constantly struggling with trying to overwhelm eachothers precog, instead of simply flinging force attacks against eachother, which either don't hurt (see Dooku vs Yoda) because the opponents have enough time to react, hit both persons (see Anakin vs Obi-Wan force push) or are simply delived succesfully, because there wasn't enough time to react (Sidious vs Yoda).

There is virtually no instance in which we see that a Jedi or Sith "sees an attack coming" in that kind of battles and acts according to that supposed level of accuracy of precognition. In fact, if that was the case, no mano-a-mano battle in the entire saga would make sense.

The only situations in which they perform good with that ability are those when they really see it coming. Predicting to be shot with a blaster when somebody already points the weapon at you, isn't the greatest feat in the history of foresight, is it? Despite of that fact, you are trying to make it look like that and try to apply their defense abilities against blasters to every other form of attack. Which, see above, doesn't make any sense, due to the counter-examples present within the movies.

So know the wizards can read minds and react to it in battle conditions when attacks are happening in mere moments ala Precog? Can you shown some screen evidence of this? Because that would give them Precog on par or possibly greater than the Jedi.

The duel of Snape and Potter in the end of "Half-blood prince" is a prime example of what happens when a legilimens takes it up with somebody not trained in occlumency. Snape literally "senses" Potter being about to fire another spell at his back, turns around, deflects it and instantly hits Harry with a counter curse.

Not that it would matter, because Jedi and Sith a generally using that nice hand gestures before starting force attacks, which kind of undermines the "pwn Wizards with instant force attack they don't see coming" approach. In fact, if we go by the movies, the Wizards can fire spells much faster than the Jedi and Sith can use force attacks. Another minor detail people kept missing.

I actually failed to notice you 'debunking everything'.

I can't say I'm surprised, considering that you apparently failed to notice every single argument I've presented. Can't say that is a new situation for me, considering our meeting in the "ST vs SW" thread. This, coupled with your fondness of arguing out of ignorance, makes every post of your an annoying interlude to any kind of debate.

Please read the arguments made or at least familiarize yourself with the source material, or just use two minutes of time to think before hitting the reply button, because right now, you're just wasting bandwidth.

Contemptuous rage is burning my monitor.

I posted the vid of Snape turning, blocking and returning a curse at Harry in THBP. It was ignored. Many times.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
20 on 20.

lulz @ battle droids.

[b] Hey, I'm just going with what people who have seen TDH say. I've heard the same description from a dozen people.

OK, so you are saying Obi Wan was just as powerful?

My bad, 20-20, even numbers. Point still stands.

Battle droids fire waves of blasters.

Hey, I'm just asking for proof.

Did you read what I said and did you watch the fight? They were about even blow for blow.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And then he got killed by Darth Maul...

The fact that they are constantly surprised by all kinds of assaults started against them, should have told you, that your opinion is pretty wrong.

No. In the majority of situations it's overwhelmed by a single surprise attack. This is how Mace Windu is killed (surprise by Anakin), how the three Jedi with him were killed (suprised by Sidious), how most of the Jedi during Order 66 died (surprised by their own Clone Troopers), how Qui-Gon Jinn (suprised by Maul) and Darth Maul (surprised by Obi-Wan) lost their lives, much like Dooku (surprised by Anakin). And of course, it's the reason for Anakin losing his legs (via Obi-Wan).

And you may want to notice that "precog" was introduced here protect the Jedi against all kind of Wizard attacks, despite the fact that some of them are clearly not avoidable through precog (Imperius curse or altering the enviroment for example).

Wow. You're clearly not pulling this out of your ass, since there is so much evidence for that on screen. The total amount of evidence being, actually, zero.

Let me have a look at the nice amount of force battles we see on screen. Yeah. They are constantly struggling with trying to overwhelm eachothers precog, instead of simply flinging force attacks against eachother, which either don't hurt (see Dooku vs Yoda) because the opponents have enough time to react, hit both persons (see Anakin vs Obi-Wan force push) or are simply delived succesfully, because there wasn't enough time to react (Sidious vs Yoda).

There is virtually no instance in which we see that a Jedi or Sith "sees an attack coming" in that kind of battles and acts according to that supposed level of accuracy of precognition. In fact, if that was the case, no mano-a-mano battle in the entire saga would make sense.

The only situations in which they perform good with that ability are those when they really see it coming. Predicting to be shot with a blaster when somebody already points the weapon at you, isn't the greatest feat in the history of foresight, is it? Despite of that fact, you are trying to make it look like that and try to apply their defense abilities against blasters to every other form of attack. Which, see above, doesn't make any sense, due to the counter-examples present within the movies.

The duel of Snape and Potter in the end of "Half-blood prince" is a prime example of what happens when a legilimens takes it up with somebody not trained in occlumency. Snape literally "senses" Potter being about to fire another spell at his back, turns around, deflects it and instantly hits Harry with a counter curse.

Not that it would matter, because Jedi and Sith a generally using that nice hand gestures before starting force attacks, which kind of undermines the "pwn Wizards with instant force attack they don't see coming" approach. In fact, if we go by the movies, the Wizards can fire spells much faster than the Jedi and Sith can use force attacks. Another minor detail people kept missing.

I can't say I'm surprised, considering that you apparently failed to notice every single argument I've presented. Can't say that is a new situation for me, considering our meeting in the "ST vs SW" thread. This, coupled with your fondness of arguing out of ignorance, makes every post of your an annoying interlude to any kind of debate.

Please read the arguments made or at least familiarize yourself with the source material, or just use two minutes of time to think before hitting the reply button, because right now, you're just wasting bandwidth.

And Maul is also a Force-user with Precog.

And the fact that they counter more times than not matters less somehow? No, it doesn't.

Mace wounded by a Force-user; killed by another Force-User. Qui Gon killed by another Force-user. Maul killed by another Force-user. Fisto and the others killed by another Force-user. See a pattern? Order 66 Jedi were caught off guard because they trusted those who killed them, or they were overwhlemed. Yoda withstanding. This is a duel; they're not in a trusting position.

Those examples didn't help your argument, considering it's Force-User on Force-user and they all have Precog in play. What Qui Gon said stands; the the films support it.

Considering they're able to block multiple blaster shots, yeah it kinda is. The Precog is what allows them to do this.

The scene at the farm? Cos Snape knew Potter was there before as he heard him, iirc. Can you post a clip of which fight exactly you're referring to?

Wizards use hand gesture/verbal and teleplay many of their attacks. The Anakin Vs Obi Wan fight, they're showing attacking with the Force rather swiftly.

And I'm not surprised by your insistence with condescending and snobbish post while taking an air of superiority. I get that you're trying to post like a dick so your cheerleader can shower you with masturbatory and sycophantic-esque remarks, but it's not necessary. You can make your points debating in here and have fun without actively trying to be an ass. In the end, you just come off like a tool; it's not worth it.

LoLz;o h how original, a "you're wasting my time" type of haughty post. See above, it's not necessary, dude.

Originally posted by Robtard
My bad, 20-20, even numbers. Point still stands.

Battle droids fire waves of blasters.

Hey, I'm just asking for proof.

Did you read what I said and did you watch the fight? They were about even blow for blow.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I posted the vid of Snape turning, blocking and returning a curse at Harry in THBP. It was ignored. Many times.

lol @ comparing clunky ass battle droids to apparating wizards. Lol, dude.

And BTW, a small group of wizards, 6ish, solos Geonosis with zero casualties.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
lol @ comparing clunky ass battle droids to apparating wizards. Lol, dude.

Oh my, dude. A strawman. Did not say 20 droids = 20 wizards.

Your vid post/comment, was that the one at the farm? Or just repost it.

Originally posted by Robtard
Oh my, dude. A strawman. Did not say 20 droids = 20 wizards.

Your vid post/comment, was that the one at the farm? Or just repost it.

Think about this: Voldemort solos Geonosis. The death eaters solo Skyline. Just think about that.

YouTube video

I don't know why I'm even bothering. The vid is hard core definitive evidence that a wizard casts spells faster than Jedi cast force attacks, but you'll dismiss it.

Denial, dude.

I assume you're talking about 00:42-00:45, cos Harry spoke the spell and Snape heard it, he didn't use mind-powers to know it was coming, he heard it. That's not close to battle-precog at all.

It's a river in Egypt, dude.

so i guess the wizards are similar to the nightsisters of dathomir??? lol

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
so i guess the wizards are similar to the nightsisters of dathomir??? lol

Originally posted by Robtard
I assume you're talking about 00:42-00:45, cos Harry spoke the spell and Snape heard it, he didn't use mind-powers to know it was coming, he heard it. That's not close to battle-precog at all.

It's a river in Egypt, dude.

You can accept it, or you can continue to ignore it. DDM was an avid Jedi supporter here, even moreso than you and sadako, until I showed him that vid. He was of the opinion that a mere padawan could take Dumbledore.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Brucey, can the Nightsisters apparate? Yeah, didn't think so. The Death Eaters rape them.

No, dude. Harry cast the spell, it reached Snape, he turned and blocked it, and cast a spell in return, and it hit Harry. This all happened in less than one second. The timer is on :43 the entire time. This is fact and cannot be disputed.

You can accept it, or you can continue to ignore it. DDM was an avid Jedi supporter here, even moreso than you and sadako, until I showed him that vid. He was of the opinion that a mere padawan could take Dumbledore.

what i said went over your head!!! lol you've been saying that the wizards have precog and i compared them to the nightsisters..

second to echo Rob's point evermoreso.. you're own vid, if Harry has precog than why didn't he just step out of the way when Bellatrix casted her spell?? If Harrry has precog than he he should have known Snape was the Half-Blood Prince.. Also why didn't Harry warn Dumbles about his impending demise or why didn't Dumbles find some way to escape before his death in HBP if as you claim the wizards have precog

Originally posted by Robtard
And Maul is also a Force-user with Precog.

Which is another point for my side, because he didn't manage to predict that Obi-Wan will jump out of the hole in the ground and cut him in half - did he? Really. Nice job, destroying your "argument", Sir.

And the fact that they counter more times than not matters less somehow? No, it doesn't.

That it works in a situation where even I could predict the next thing happening doesn't mean it works in all other situations. They can predict blasters being fired, after blaster being pointed into their direction. Great. But in almost every instance where the coming attack isn't already that obvious, they pretty much fail to predict it.

Mace wounded by a Force-user; killed by another Force-User. Qui Gon killed by another Force-user. Maul killed by another Force-user. Fisto and the others killed by another Force-user. See a pattern?

Yes. The pattern is them failing to predict the next move of their respective opponent. What else do you want to suggest? That they were owned with some "anti-precognition" ability, employed against them by opponents who were trying to keep their own precognition working in the same second, while performing other fancy lightsaber or force manouvers? I don't think so. Especially, since none of that sort is even hinted on screen, nor mentioned in any other kind of SW source.

And since we go by the stuff seen on screen, all that it needs to own a force user is surprising them. And surprise people is something that magic usually excels at, specially magic that can turn it's users invisible or teleport them wherever they like. I mean, hey: How are the force users going to dodge something like that:

YouTube video

So Dumbledore waves his wand and summons magical flames that rain death from above in the form of fireballs. I'd like to point out Dumbledore's aiming skills. He hits the Inferi holding Harry while not even looking into the water, which would have (optical effect) obscured his vision anyway, making it even harder to hit the desired target. The Force users are going to defend themselves against that stuff how?

And how are the Jedi going to fight stuff like that here:

YouTube video

The few seconds from 0:30 on shows the Death Eaters destroying the home of the Lovegoods. Notice how they simply fly around in their smoke like shapes and fire curses into the house. Not pictured: the house finally collapsing from that.

The other scene would be Harry using his Patronus at 0:54 - 0:56. Note how that single spell clears the entire corridor filled with Dementors.

The Wizards and Witches are simply far more mobile than the Force users and are capable of using their offensive powers while speeding around.

Order 66 Jedi were caught off guard because they trusted those who killed them, or they were overwhlemed. Yoda withstanding. This is a duel; they're not in a trusting position.

Coleman Trebor was shot dead by Jango Fett during the Battle on Geonosis, while the headhunter was standing right in front of him. Where is your excuse for the precognition fail there?

Those examples didn't help your argument, considering it's Force-User on Force-user and they all have Precog in play. What Qui Gon said stands; the the films support it.

Right, pal. The films support it - with exception of every single scene in which we see a force users being either killed or hit with any kind of attack. You still have to explain how facing an opponent capable of precognition does somehow cancel the own ability to precog things that are going to happen. I'm really looking forward to that revelation.

Considering they're able to block multiple blaster shots, yeah it kinda is. The Precog is what allows them to do this.

Really? So they can predict at what exact moment somebody pointing a weapon at them is going to pull the trigger. That's certainly helpful, when you can react to such an attack in a proper way.

It's rather not so helpful against magic, because there isn't much they can do against spells being fired at them. Much less, if there aren't any visible spell-effects (Confundus, Imperius), the spell isn't directed at them directly (e.g. a Reductor curse) or the spell does only affect the Wizard (e.g. Apparition). Not even talking about Dumbledore doing his tornado of fire again.

This still doesn't proof the crucial thing here: that they could figure out what kind of attack will be shot at them or that they could exactly predict where apparating Wizards would reappear.

The scene at the farm? Cos Snape knew Potter was there before as he heard him, iirc. Can you post a clip of which fight exactly you're referring to?

Oh, well. Had to rewatch it and, yes, he hears Harry speaking. That is not the case in the book. However. Less than a second does pass from Harry starting to say the incantation to him being hit by the counter curse of Snape. Which at least proofs that Wizards can have a pretty fast reaction time and that spell move faster than blaster bolts.

However. That doesn't cancel the existance of Ligilimency as mind reading, which is still present in the movies. It just requires another spell being cast (maybe...)

Wizards use hand gesture/verbal and teleplay many of their attacks. The Anakin Vs Obi Wan fight, they're showing attacking with the Force rather swiftly.

We've already seen that Dumbledore is capable of lighting a wardrobe on fire while not even looking at it, without any spell being said. So what about Dumbledore just thinking about the Force users bursting into flames...instant win?

And I'm not surprised by your insistence with condescending and snobbish post while taking an air of superiority. I get that you're trying to post like a dick so your cheerleader can shower you with masturbatory and sycophantic-esque remarks, but it's not necessary. You can make your points debating in here and have fun without actively trying to be an ass. In the end, you just come off like a tool; it's not worth it.

Wow. Nice lecture. If you had put compareably much effort into your thoughts on the actual topic, you would probably have produced a post that could have made sense. And applause for trying to lecture people on internet etiquette, while behaving like a troll yourself. In the end, that just makes you look like a hypocrite.

LoLz;o h how original, a "you're wasting my time" type of haughty post. See above, it's not necessary, dude.

I wasn't insinuating, that you are wasting my time. You offer cheap entertainment. You're really just wasting bandwidth, because all you bring to the table is rather mindless speculation and ignorance towards already posted points. But please, go on with that.

@BruceSkywalker

We were talking about Legilimency here, which Harry is not capable off. That was a reference to some of the participating Wizards (Snape, Voldemort, Dumbledore, Bellatrix). The Wizarding kids are often limited to lesser kinds of destruction:

YouTube video

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi

No, dude. Harry cast the spell, it reached Snape, he turned and blocked it, and cast a spell in return, and it hit Harry. This all happened in less than one second. The timer is on :43 the entire time. This is fact and cannot be disputed.

You can accept it, or you can continue to ignore it. DDM was an avid Jedi supporter here, even moreso than you and sadako, until I showed him that vid. He was of the opinion that a mere padawan could take Dumbledore.

And the spell is fired after the spoken word; then Snape turns and blocks. Not saying it isn't impressive, but it falls short of what the Jedi do and can do repeatedly.

Maybe you've forgotten, but padawans are trained early on to fight without their sight and they learn to block with just the Force as a guide, ie Force-precog in play. This is seen in EP4 with Luke and in a manner in EP2 with Yoda and the younglings. That's right, even little Jedi-children have Precog.

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
what i said went over your head!!! lol you've been saying that the wizards have precog and i compared them to the nightsisters..

second to echo Rob's point evermoreso.. you're own vid, if Harry has precog than why didn't he just step out of the way when Bellatrix casted her spell?? If Harrry has precog than he he should have known Snape was the Half-Blood Prince.. Also why didn't Harry warn Dumbles about his impending demise or why didn't Dumbles find some way to escape before his death in HBP if as you claim the wizards have precog

When did I say they have precog? Quote me. Link me.

Originally posted by Robtard
And the spell is fired after the spoken word; then Snape turns and blocks. Not saying it isn't impressive, but it falls short of what the Jedi do and can do repeatedly.

Maybe you've forgotten, but padawans are trained early on to fight without their sight and they learn to block with just the Force as a guide, ie Force-precog in play. This is seen in EP4 with Luke and in a manner in EP2 with Yoda and the younglings. That's right, even little Jedi-children have Precog.

You're beyond help.