Harry Potter Magic versus the Force (Army thread).....

Started by Borbarad73 pages

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yep. The wizards're screwed. Rj. They were screwed AGES ago.

Cause if the force is present at all, it has all its attributes.

Can there be any logic found in that conclusion? I don't get it.

So. The force binds the Galaxy in which the fight happens together. How does that matter? The Force users (which are participating here, not the mythical energy field itself) would still be limited to their onscreen feats, performed in a Galaxy bound together by the Force.

What do you think will happen? That the force as an entity helps the Jedi or Sith? Of course, it totally could - to the same extend it did in the movies. And that wouldn't be enough to make your side win. Which is, essentially, what RJ proclaims the entire time. So congratulations for attempting to use a straw man on him.

I mean hey: The best case you made for your view so far was, that the force users will snap the Wizards necks using telekinesis. I wonder how you managed to ignore, that the Wizards are very able of using telekinesis themselves through the entirety of your "argument"?

Ten year old Voldemort proclaims that he can "make things move without touching them" (Half-blood prince), this before having received a single minute of magical training. 11 year old Ron Weasley was capable of disarming a freaking troll carrying a man-sized club by using levitation. Wormtail easily lifted Harry from the ground after killing Cedric Diggory in "Goblet of Fire", and Voldemort forces him to bend down during their later duel. The Dark Lord slaps the wand out of Harry's hand with a mere gesture in "Order of the Phoenix" and of course, we still have that Death Eater apparently stopping the Hogwarts Express with telekinesis, which trumps every Jedi onscreen feat we have seen.

Anything else the Jedi or Sith could use offensively according to their movies, after having their telekinesis undone? Oh. Right. Force lightning. Is that more powerful than actual lightning (it doesn't seem so on screen)? Because 14 year old Cedric Diggory doesn't give a flying ducky being hit by an actual lightning strike mid-air in "Prisoner of Azkaban". He's having his broom back under control about 3 seconds after the incident. See:

YouTube video

That leaves the Jedi with the option to cut the Wizards down with their lightsabers. I don't think that this tactic will suffice against opponents capable of flying and / or teleporting themselves, not to mention that the Wizards could also make that lightsabers vanish, leaving the force users helpless.

Any other idea how the Jedi and Sith win this? Or can you simply accept that the Force users pretty much have no chance against the various methods the Wizards have to simply defeat and / or kill them? It's getting boring to repeat the same stuff again and again.

Snap.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Snap.

👆

What's sad is there's nothing new being presented in Borbarad's post..albeit, he's saying those same things with better wording.

He's very good at that. Did you feel the same level of contemptuous rage while reading it as I did?

Originally posted by Borbarad

Anything else the Jedi or Sith could use offensively according to their movies, after having their telekinesis undone? Oh. Right. Force lightning. Is that more powerful than actual lightning (it doesn't seem so on screen)? Because 14 year old Cedric Diggory doesn't give a flying ducky being hit by an actual lightning strike mid-air in "Prisoner of Azkaban". He's having his broom back under control about 3 seconds after the incident. See:

YouTube video

No he wasn't. The lightning quite clearly hits the snitch and some of the charge/static jumps over to him. Besides, there are plenty of cases of ordinary humans surviving similar things. This does not mean that they will shrug lightning off like Superman all of a sudden.

And 'doesn't give a flying duck?' 😬 Becuase it looked to me like he passed out and fell like a rock. And I'm curious where you see him 'having his broom back under control about 3 seconds after the incident' becuase he.... doesn't. 😐

Originally posted by Borbarad
Can there be any logic found in that conclusion? I don't get it.

So. The force binds the Galaxy in which the fight happens together. How does that matter? The Force users (which are participating here, not the mythical energy field itself) would still be limited to their onscreen feats, performed in a Galaxy bound together by the Force.

What do you think will happen? That the force as an entity helps the Jedi or Sith? Of course, it totally could - to the same extend it did in the movies. And that wouldn't be enough to make your side win. Which is, essentially, what RJ proclaims the entire time. So congratulations for attempting to use a straw man on him.

I mean hey: The best case you made for your view so far was, that the force users will snap the Wizards necks using telekinesis. I wonder how you managed to ignore, that the Wizards are very able of using telekinesis themselves through the entirety of your "argument"?

Ten year old Voldemort proclaims that he can "make things move without touching them" (Half-blood prince), this before having received a single minute of magical training. 11 year old Ron Weasley was capable of disarming a freaking troll carrying a man-sized club by using levitation. Wormtail easily lifted Harry from the ground after killing Cedric Diggory in "Goblet of Fire", and Voldemort forces him to bend down during their later duel. The Dark Lord slaps the wand out of Harry's hand with a mere gesture in "Order of the Phoenix" and of course, we still have that Death Eater apparently stopping the Hogwarts Express with telekinesis, which trumps every Jedi onscreen feat we have seen.

Anything else the Jedi or Sith could use offensively according to their movies, after having their telekinesis undone? Oh. Right. Force lightning. Is that more powerful than actual lightning (it doesn't seem so on screen)? Because 14 year old Cedric Diggory doesn't give a flying ducky being hit by an actual lightning strike mid-air in "Prisoner of Azkaban". He's having his broom back under control about 3 seconds after the incident. See:

YouTube video

That leaves the Jedi with the option to cut the Wizards down with their lightsabers. I don't think that this tactic will suffice against opponents capable of flying and / or teleporting themselves, not to mention that the Wizards could also make that lightsabers vanish, leaving the force users helpless.

Any other idea how the Jedi and Sith win this? Or can you simply accept that the Force users pretty much have no chance against the various methods the Wizards have to simply defeat and / or kill them? It's getting boring to repeat the same stuff again and again.

But if the Jedi are participating, and they are simbiotes with the force then the living force IS participating. 🙂

And if its is present, then one of its attributes is its physical role in the universe. So I guess the burden is on you to show that the living force will want its partners dead.

Its not strawmanning. If the force allows the user presight.
Pretty useful in thwarting/ prePWNing the wizards.

Also... wizards dont have the Jedi reflexes or precog needed to anticipate and successfully counter a sudden TK strike that rips your head off. 🙂

If fiendfyre gets cast (Or any other spell), it is manipulated by the Jedi /Sith on a subatomic level (IE Force grabbed) and sent back to the caster.

So the relevance of the force's role is again made plain in this fight.

This is why the forcegimps have been attempted here with such rigour from the HP fan side.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
But if the Jedi are participating, and they are simbiotes with the force then the living force IS participating. 🙂

And if its is present, then one of its attributes is its physical role in the universe. So I guess the burden is on you to show that the living force will want its partners dead.

That's not how the "force" works. That's not how it has ever worked. Not even in the EU. The force is not going to magically (pun intended) cause the Force Army to win or lose: that's entirely dependent on the force users to win or lose.

What actually needs to happen is you need to provide a direct movie reference (not a debatable indirect reference, because that won't fly) that indicates that the force actually changes things based on what it wants...like it's God?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Its not strawmanning. If the force allows the user presight.
Pretty useful in thwarting/ prePWNing the wizards.

No, it is. Not only is it a factually incorrect interpretation of what the Force actually is, even if it were a real attribute, it would still be a strawman that has no place in an MVF based on the simple fact that it is entirely philosphical and we have no way of determining the will of the Force in an versus context. This is on top of the long list of times the force was shown to "fail" a person making your presentation an exercise in philosophical futility.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Also... wizards dont have the Jedi reflexes or precog needed to anticipate and successfully counter a sudden TK strike that rips your head off. 🙂

It was shown that a wizard had a reaction time faster than any force user showing "jedi reflexes" by reacting faster than any Jedi was seen to do in any of the SW films. This is an MVF fact and it cannot change, even if you are in denial about it. This is a point that I had to concede.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
If fiendfyre gets cast (Or any other spell), it is manipulated by the Jedi /Sith on a subatomic level (IE Force grabbed) and sent back to the caster.

Incorrect and I had to concede this point, as well.

The spell is magical.

The spell is manipulated by TK.

The wizards have greater TK than the Jedi/Sith.

The Jedi lose in any sort of TK battle with the higher-up wizards.

Then end.

And, that MAGICAL attack is manipulated on the MAGICAL level and continues on it's path towards the force user.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
So the relevance of the force's role is again made plain in this fight.

Indeed. You are using it incorrectly on the very last leg you thought your position stood on.

I've admitted I was wrong and that I underestimated the power of the magical users. You're the last hold out in a forum of Star Wars fans.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
This is why the forcegimps have been attempted here with such rigour from the HP fan side.

No forcegimps were attempted.

No its not philosophical/its an attribute that has physicality in the fight..

Hah. No others agreed.

Wizards still have human reflexes, even if they are just very fast human reflexes.

They were attempted before when RJ tried to take away the forces effects almost entirely.

Sorry but I gotta go with the magic from Harry Potter here. I'm a fan of the Star Wars genre too but you have to admit its MAGIC! They have spells for a variety of things that range from stunning to killing to shapeshifting. And they can apparate and do some pretty crazy stuff..

Oh and haha I thought it was funny as hell when Rouge Jedi was getting attacked just for making the point that HP people would pwn the crap out of SW people. Kudos to you.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
No its not philosophical/its an attribute that has physicality in the fight..

No, it's strictly a futile philosophical discussion as you can neither prove nor disprove what the actual will of the force is. This assumes that only somewhat believed idea that the force actually has a will that it exerts in a tangible manner. Some EU peeps do not believe that, some do.

The will is indeterministic (phil.) in any sort of logical discussion because you are missing far too much information to logically conclude on what the will of the living force is, which in and of itself makes an illogical conclusion that the will of the living force actually exists, in-universe.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Hah. No others agreed.

I don't believe that they have those opinions, anymore, just as I no longer have that opinion. I have been turned to the dark side. 🙁

All one has to do is see how fiercly I argued with RJ about this shit in the earlier days of these types of threads. (I believe it was this thread that it got the most heated, if I remember properly.)

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Wizards still have human reflexes, even if they are just very fast human reflexes.

I'm not so sure. Snape blocked a spell that is many times faster than a blaster bolt and returned "fire" with another spell in a far faster time-frame than any bloster-bolt was blocked by any Jedi. The closet calc I have is from Obi-Wan pulling out his lightsaber and blocking blaster bolt fire from Jango-Fett's blasters in a very quick manner. In fact, the fastest non-PIS blaster bolt speed that I can find is from Jango Fett's pistols and for good reason: those shits were supposed to be uber. Still, that blocking is between 3-4 times slower than the thing that Snape did, and Snape did his blocking and spell casting and connected with it in that 3-4 times faster time frame (2/24th a second versus a tad over 6/24ths).

So, feat to feat, we have faster shit going down from HP than Star Wars.

What we saw in Star Wars is not superior to what we saw in HP, regardless of what you think it should be: we have to go with what is seen on screen, not what we think it should be.

Personally, I think that Lucas should have down a slow-mo sequence showing how quick force reflexes were so that we can see that they are superior to human reflexes. Instead, what we get, is just very very precise blaster bolt and saber blocking...precision that is guided by that precognition...but nothing as fast as Snape's blocking...which takes a shit all over the idea that battle precog is this uber ability.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
They were attempted before when RJ tried to take away the forces effects almost entirely.

There's a difference between actually trying to gimp one side over the other and retaliating with childish come backs. That was never his argument nor will it ever be: he thinks that's a very stupid and lame counter-point, but was using it to illustrate how silly he thought your arguments have been.

Originally posted by narutoisthebest
Oh and haha I thought it was funny as hell when Rouge Jedi was getting attacked just for making the point that HP people would pwn the crap out of SW people. Kudos to you.

Nice to have you aboard posting in the MVF! 😄

I looked at your profile and you like a lot of the same movies as I do. We're gonna be friends in the movie forum. ✅

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nice to have you aboard posting in the MVF! 😄

I looked at your profile and you like a lot of the same movies as I do. We're gonna be friends in the movie forum. ✅

Cool looking forward to it 😄

A flying ducky? I gotta get hip with this net slang.

@Lucien

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He's very good at that. Did you feel the same level of contemptuous rage while reading it as I did?

Contemptuous rage? My bad. By the way: You forgot to mention that English isn't my primary language, just to add the icing on the cake. 😛

@Nephthys

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he wasn't. The lightning quite clearly hits the snitch and some of the charge/static jumps over to him.

Right. As all of use have seen, most of the energy contained in the lightning went to the Snitch, which is why we saw it melting right on the spot...erm...no. We didn't see it melting, did we?

In fact, we didn't. So where did all the energy go? Oh, right. Let me check. Gold is a brilliant conductor, so we can conclude that the energy of the lightning went somewhere, an idea that is kind of bolstered by the fact that a) it didn't melt and b) somebody caught it later (either Cedric to win or whoever was responsible of putting the Snitch back in the shed after the game), meaning it wasn't "charged" either.

Yet the only energy we see being radiated away from the Snitch hits...let's see...right Cedric Diggory. But that must have been only a small charge or static, because those commonly cause visible sparks in the air, right? No. Actually not. But thanks for trying.

Besides, there are plenty of cases of ordinary humans surviving similar things.

Can it be that you're unable to get my point?
The question was, whether force lightning, which didn't kill anybody in the movies (and is therefor apparently weaker than real lightning), would cause any high amount of damage against the Wizards.

And I'd love to see an "ordinary human" getting hit by lightning while flying around on a magical broom. You may want to think about the injuries that people surviving lightning strikes had, and imagine the same happening several dozen feet above the ground.


This does not mean that they will shrug lightning off like Superman all of a sudden.

And 'doesn't give a flying duck?' 😬 Becuase it looked to me like he passed out and fell like a rock. And I'm curious where you see him 'having his broom back under control about 3 seconds after the incident' becuase he.... doesn't. 😐

Did you even watch the video I posted?
You can see him falling but he starts "flying" again at 0:49, given that he stops spinning and we see him flying a curve in relation to the Quidditch field below, while his back stays "up" in Harry direction. So it takes six seconds before he's able to manouver again after eating a full barrage of lightning mid-air. Surely something your "normal human" could easily do, right?

@Sadako of Girth

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
And if its is present, then one of its attributes is its physical role in the universe. So I guess the burden is on you to show that the living force will want its partners dead.

Erm. Nope.
Since you want to use that - rather ridiculous - idea as an argument, it's your burden of proof to show that the living force would prevent the death of its partners. Let me do a check: Every single SW source contradicts that claim.

You see. If it were for the "will of the force", no Jedi would ever die against a Sith. We see it happen. Now you might want to follow up with the - similar ridiculous - argument, that the balance was shifted to the Siths side in the time of the prequels. Then I'd have to ask how Yoda managed to overpower Dooku (Attack of the Clones), how he managed to force push Sidious (Revenge of the Sith) and how Mace Windu managed to overpower Sidious (Revenge of the Sith).

You'll notice that I've asked this before, and you're reaction was - pretty much - to ignore it, apparently, because you have no answer to that problem.


Its not strawmanning. If the force allows the user presight.
Pretty useful in thwarting/ prePWNing the wizards.

You still seem to suffer from the - wrong - idea, that prediction is anywhere close to being 100 % accurate. May I point to the examples above again. Yoda can't "predict" Sidious force lightning, neither can Sidious "predict" Yoda's force push (Revenge of the Sith). Where was their "presight" there? On vacation? Not active, because after having exchanged words on how they are going to kill eachother, none of them did expect an attack?

You may also find that line of thought familiar. I've also presented this argument already and you - once more - reacted by ignoring it entirely, apparently, because you have no answer to that problem.

To make the long story short: Either admit you're wrong or stop posting here. I know what Jedi and Sith (and the Force) can do, probably more than anybody else here, considering that I'm one of the most knowledgeable participants in the Star Wars VS forum. There is absolutely no way for them to compete with magic, especially not - and that another point you keep ignoring - if the Wizards get 30 minutes of prep time.

Before the fight even starts, they could magically alter the entire enviroment in order to benefit from it. Just think about placing muggle repelling charms or turning themselves invisible. After 30 minutes, the Jedi would be confronted with the urge to go home or try to fight invisible Wizards which might fly around somewhere above them.

And, just in case you want to drop the "but the Force users can sense them and still attack them" argument here: Go watch "A New Hope". Darth Vader totally fails to find Obi-Wan Kenobi, despite being able to sense him - from about 5 meters of distance. In "Empire strikes back" Vader manages to hide from Luke during their duel, almost scoring a surprising blow on him - and Luke does the same to Vader during their duel in "Return of the Jedi".

Anything else? If not, the Wizards win. /thread

For the record, that wasn't Diggory who was hit by lightning. It was a Hufflepuff seeker. And yes, he was momentarily stunned, but he regained control of his his broom fairly quickly.

^

Precog failing a few times doesn't trump it not failing countless times, ie, each time a Jedi/Sith is shown successfully blocking a blaster. Then there's also the fact that in the Yoda/Sidious example you use they both have the Precog, seems to imply they're constantly canceling each other out and/or one-upping each other, when it's Force-user Vs Force-user duel. But don't think anyone here has argued Prercog to be infallible(as we see it being overwhelmed), just that's a great advantage in a fight over someone who doesn't have it.

The wizards getting prep is mostly a one-sided benefit here, as they could greatly sway there chances in 30 mins; this was pointed out in the first response-post of this thread. It a sense, it's a Jedi/Sith gimp.

Hhahaha, dude. How AC of you. 'knowing more than anyone else.'

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
For the record, that wasn't Diggory who was hit by lightning. It was a Hufflepuff seeker. And yes, he was momentarily stunned, but he regained control of his his broom fairly quickly.

For the record: Diggory was the captain of the Hufflepuff team and played as seeker. And the guy hit by lightning even has "Diggory" written on his robes. You may want to read the books or watch the movies...carefully.

Originally posted by Robtard
Precog failing a few times doesn't trump it not failing countless times, ie, each time a Jedi/Sith is shown successfully blocking a blaster.

You do realize the difference between the event of having a gun pointed at you and the event of being confronted with a total alien form of attack? You also realize that, you know, we see Jedi being killed by blaster fire?


Then there's also the fact that in the Yoda/Sidious example you use they both have the Precog, seems to imply they're constantly canceling each other out and/or one-upping each other, when it's Force-user Vs Force-user duel.

That doesn't make any kind of sense. Precog doesn't cancel out precog. If that would be the case, none of them would ever land a successful attack.

But don't think anyone here has argued Prercog to be infallible, just that's a great advantage in a fight over someone who doesn't have it.

A situation which doesn't apply, when the opponents are mind-reading Wizards, capable of predicting each single step you'll make by, well, reading your mind. Voldemort has been noted as the - probably - greatest Legilimency user of all times, with Dumbledore being a candidate for the second place. Snape and Bellatrix are also quite good in the art as it seems.


The wizards getting prep is mostly a one-sided benefit here, as they could greatly sway there chances in 30 mins; this was pointed out in the first response-post of this thread. It a sense, it's a Jedi/Sith gimp.

You notice that I did debunk all "pro-Jedi" arguments without utilizing the premise of the prep time. Without prep time, the Wizards win. With prep time, they just win faster and more easily.


Hhahaha, dude. How AC of you. 'knowing more than anyone else.'

Hahaha, dude. Did you see the "probably" there? I don't see anybody else here, who spent most of his KMC time arguing Star Wars related topics. Do you? What do I know, spending most of almost six years here in the Star Wars versus forum, debating - surprise - Star Wars. Hell. How could I think about being more knowledgeable in that field, just because I did read about every single bit of SW literature released in the past 15 years?

Originally posted by Borbarad
For the record: Diggory was the captain of the Hufflepuff team and played as seeker. And the guy hit by lightning even has "Diggory" written on his robes. You may want to read the books or watch the movies...carefully.

Well, all I saw was a dude with spiked hair that wasn't Pattison. Oversight.

Yeah, I know who Diggory is. Yes, I know he is the captain of the Hufflepuff team. You think I know all the shit I know about HP from birth?

Thing is, he is not in the credits for Prisoner of Azkaban, the film.

Moot point, he's a wizard and what you said stands.