Well here's something I just noticed. FF to :51
Hermione casts Petrificus Totalus. The spell leaves her wand even before she finishes saying Petrificus. Whole thing took less than a second to cast and hit it's victim. Like 1/2 a second.
Interesting......
Originally posted by Robtard
You're not paying attention. If both opponents have precog (seeing the future right before it happens), stands to reason they're constantly trying to one-up each other.
How are they going to "one-up" eachother, when we just see a single attack on screen? It's not like we see an elaborated series of attacks happening, which fail due to precognition, until something happens that overpowers the precog of one of the participants. It's one attack - precognition fails routine. Thanks for skipping the explanation part once again. Apparently, it's my turn.
What's the other option, they don't have precog, despite it being said and shown? No. They have it, it works as stated, it can be overwhelmed. It's not the end-all to powers, but it's great in a fight.
I really don't get while you keep making the same assertion despite being proven wrong again and again.
Let me try to explain it once again, according to the rules EU canon defines for Jedi precognition, which may be helpful, as you don't want to listen to reason: Whenever a Jedi uses precognition, it enables him to perceive all possible actions happening in the next few moments. Okay so far?
Now, obviously, the least possibilities there are, the better precognition works. That just a question of math. If there are only 2 possibilities to chose from, picking the right one is a 50 percent chance. Do you agree so far?
Just imagine a blaster rifle being held into your direction. Is it hard to deflect a shot coming from it? See. I don't think that I'd have a hard time doing that, because all that is required so far, is holding your lightsaber in the right direction. The more shots being fired at you, the harder it becomes to deflect them.
The same would apply to lightsaber combat or force attacks. The more options your opponent has, the least possible would it become to accurately predict which option he's going to take. This is the reason why you actually train swordfighting (and why normal humans can participate in that sport).
And now, just for the fun of it, consider the options a HP Wizard has in a fight. From his standard position, he can perform an uncanny amount of spells, all having different effects, all requiring different manouvers to avoid them. He could vanish to reappear somewhere else (with "somewhere else" translating to virtually unlimited options). He could render himself invisible or start manipulating the enviroment with a flick of his wand.
Now...how accurate do you think the prediction will be here, if it can be "overpowered" by as few as three, four of five options (in the shape of Clone Troopers trying to kill a Jedi)? A force user would literally see every possible option following and the only way to make the right guess is either eliminating some of the options or know - partially - what will be coming.
This is why the excel at blaster-deflection, but get totally surprised at times by any kind of assault. If that wasn't the case, Grievous should have never been able to kill a Jedi, which he did, according to movie canon.
WTF? Luke was blind, while he knew the ball was going to attack him at some point, he had absolutely no way of knowing when and at which angle, which both discount your insistence that precog is only good if the Jedi in question are facing a blaster and that they can see it ("The only situations in which they perform good with that ability are those when they really see it coming."-you). Clearly, the Jedi can "see" with the Force, no need for eyesight, this relates to Precog. You were simply wrong with that statement, accept it and move on.
I weren't wrong, but you weren't able to grasp the point. I didn't state that they totally fail when not being able to see anything. They just fail more often than they succeed with a general rule used on screen seems to be that, the more surprising a situation is to the Force user, the least accurate will his prediction be. However. In this thread, precog was used as some kind of 100 % infallible tool, and you have used it in the same manner yourself, simply stating that the Force users would 100 % accurately predict, where an apparating Wizard would reappear.
Again, no one said Precog is infallible and Jedi can't be killed, it has limits as shown and Jedi die. Mundi turned around too; he blocked a few shots, but was overwhelmed.
Yes. It has limits. But you just don't want to apply them. The limitations are shown in the movies, and they are shown to be assaults. You assault a force user, you do something that he wouldn't think of - you'd win. This is the reason for almost every single force user death we see on screen.
LoL, just saying "precog utterly fails here" doesn't make it so. Jedi can sense attacks, they don't have to see the attacks, the threat doesn't even have to be aimed at them for that matter and wizards aren't the exception just because they're wizards. Give it up, Precog is in play, it's a highly useful advantage in fight.
Oh please, Robtard. How can you keep on claiming that precog is "a highly useful advantage in fights" when it doesn't do anything on screen that bolsters such a statement. Where is the instance in which precognition came in handy in one of the mano-a-mano confrontations?
Where exactly did you "destroy" the wizards Telekenisis trumoping the Jedi? The train stopping? Was that indeed telekenesis or did she use some maigic spell to stop a magical train? Show proof.
Since when is the train magical, Robtard? Did you get any information from the movies, that the rest of us missed? Because it seems to be a rather normal train, being moved by rather normal means. If you have other information, you may want to share it - or stop speculating about some never-mentioned magical propulsion system stopped by magic. The Death Eater simply raises his hand and the train stops - no spell effects, no magic shown on screen. Gesture - stop.
Not that we've seen them using telekinesis at various other occassions which you have graciously skipped.
And those two happen to be extremely powerful Sith with great levels of speed, as Force-users posses, great speed.
Apparition works nigh instantious, and the Wizards can fly faster than ordinary broomsticks (160 mph). Force speed does have the pretty obvious disadvantages, that it is bound to the ground and that, as far as the movies show, a force users can't do anything in force speed mode but...run. We don't see it in action during fight sequences. In fact, it would have helped Obi-Wan to get to Darth Maul in time, instead of having to watch Qui-Gon die alone, right?
Yeah, what happens to Dumbledore as he's casting that very powerful but slow spell? He leaves himself open and is likely to get killed. He's better off apparating and casting quicker spells, big-guy.
How did you come to the conclusion, that the spell is "slow"?
We see it surrounding the island in less than a second from Harry's perspective which means it doesn't take longer to summon that fire than it takes to use a force attack. And while the spell aimed at the Inferus holding Harry travels rather slow (2 seconds through water before it hits it's target), we see at least seven other targets being hit at the same time underwater, and the ones above getting grilled as well.
And Dumbledore has enough control about that fire to make it form two "walls" guarding the passage back across the lake. If he drops that stuff in the middle of our battle here, all Jedi and Sith are royally screwed.
Even if he has to stand still and dies ultimately. The attack would still be performed, which could result in 6-7 force users being offed by enemy seeking fireballs...
They counter by being offensive; using their speed; using the Force-offensively. The death-spell, that could likely be blocked, other spells likely no. No one's relly argueing that it Jedi/Sith are walking through without heavy losses. It's 20 on 20 heavy-hitters, it'll be a blood-bath
Their offensive abilites are utterly worthless. Speed, lightsabers - useless against flying opponents. If they want to use offensive force abilities, movie canon dictates that they can't do it while moving. They keep standing still. Unlike the Wizards. So when they want to use force attack on the Wizards flying around, this will result in immobile targets for the Wizards to hit, which again ends with dead Force users and nothing else.
Now you're just spinning your wheels. First it was 'shots they could see coming', when that was shown to be obscenely wrong, now it's changed to "in all instances, they had a certain form of knowledge of what was going to happen next", which is clearly wrong too. Anakin (EP2) sensed danger not aimed at him in another room, he had no real idea what/when that was going to happen. Not that it really matters here, as the Jedi/Sith are aware that there's 20 opponents trying to kill them. They're aware.
Holy shit, dude.
Did Anakin focus on sensing danger in the other room for the entire time, because it was his only task to keep said room save. Note how he doesn't "precog" the danger coming, but just senses the intruders, when they are already in. So please stop mixing up the Jedi abilities to arive at your desired conclusion which was wrong, is wrong and will ever be wrong.
Nice little spin-tactic there. I in fact have had the stand that Precog isn't infallible. Just not that it's going to completely fail here, cos.
No. You have to assume that precog is completely infallible, if you want to grant them the ability to predict action far beyond the complexity of stuff they usually can predict, when the movies show us how easily precog is overwhelmed by surprise. People disappearing and reappearing somewhere else should be quite the surprise for them.
And who said it would completely fail? Against apparition and anything else Wizards could come up that the Force aren't familiar with. Logic dictates that. They could still try to deflect spell bolts with their lightsabers.
Oh my! (see I can be dramatic too) And the times it hasn't "failed again and again" and the Jedi survive because of it? The few doesn't supersede the many.
A few doesn't supersede the many? We're talking about quality here and not quantity. It's the quality of the attacks directed at them (surprising them) not the sheer number of attacks coming at them. This is why Grievous can assault Jedi and kill them while failing against Kenobi in direct confrontation.
Wasn't that an illusion, wardrobe burning?
Since when does Dumbledore summon illusionary flames? He contained them to the point that they had no effect on the wardrobe.
Tard? You know, that's the first time anyone used that against me, you're ****ing clever, using part of my name like that.
Already resorting to the F-Word? Weren't you the guy who attempted to lecture me, the "arrogant dick", on nice behaviour in debates? Hilarious.
But thats not precog if it was proved failed. By definition.
And the times during which it "Fails" as you put it, its Living force induced CIS. Everything had to happen the way it happened in order to bring balance to the force, right...?
If you look at The Jedi and Sith as Poker players and the Force as the House/dealer, that kinda illustrates the relevance of the individual side's loss at any given time in the scheme of things.
Grevious was successful when guided by Sidious, who is in turn partially guided by the force.
When in the grand scheme of things he became obsolete (IE when Sidious/the living force didnt need Grevious to hunt Jedi, his ass was toast.
Also: How many really high level Jedi did Grevious actually Kill onscreen....? It coulda been a buncha padawans he killed for all you know. Ive never heard of him killing ANYONE of consequence, except Shakk ti, and even THATS technically EU, not being in the theatrical release.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
But thats not precog if it was proved failed. By definition.
By definition it's not the actual precognition failing. Because that works fine. In fact it works so damn well, that the sheer amount of data gathered via precog (aka possibilities of what might happen next), does overload the Force users ability to react properly...
And the times during which it "Fails" as you put it, its Living force induced CIS. Everything had to happen the way it happened in order to bring balance to the force, right...?
Wrong.
We can play the "what would have happened" game all day long, and in the end, I would walk away as winner, because there are almost infinite ways to develop a story in order to archive the desired outcome. You can't attribute every situation in which precognition didn't help the Force users to CIS. Especially not, if it didn't have any effect on the actual storyline.
Example: Yoda not seeing Sidious force lightning coming, in turn Sidious not seeing Yoda's force push coming (during their RotS fight). Absolutely no relevance to the story, yet it happened. CIS? Hardly.
That aside: I find it rather questionable, to attribute every event in the story to the "will of the force". Because to act according to it's will, one has to listen, which the Sith - most noteably - don't do. This kind of eliminates all Sith-influenced events from that kind of debate, which includes the entirety of the SW saga...
If you look at The Jedi and Sith as Poker players and the Force as the House/dealer, that kinda illustrates the relevance of the individual side's loss at any given time in the scheme of things.
Again. That explanation doesn't fly. See above.
Grevious was successful when guided by Sidious, who is in turn partially guided by the force.When in the grand scheme of things he became obsolete (IE when Sidious/the living force didnt need Grevious to hunt Jedi, his ass was toast.
Laughable. By that definition, none of Sidious schemes could ever go wrong, which constantly happens through-out the prequels. That aside: See above. The Sith don't listen to the will of the force - that's Jedi business. "The Force" has no influence on them, which is the very reason for it being "out of balance" by the mere existance of the Sith.
Also: How many really high level Jedi did Grevious actually Kill onscreen....? It coulda been a buncha padawans he killed for all you know. Ive never heard of him killing ANYONE of consequence, except Shakk ti, and even THATS technically EU, not being in the theatrical release.
We know that he killed at least four Jedi, because he wields four lightsabers and proclaims to have taken them from defeated opponents. But given the problems that even Obi-Wan, being a Council Member, encountered when confronting (and surprising) Grievous, it's only logical to assume that every lesser swordsman (with Kenobi being one of the top dogs) would probably fail against Grievous. This is, essentially, confirmed by the Clone Wars TV series and all EU sources - in which only Council Members are given chances in defeating (or rather than that: escaping) the General.
Not as often as you make out. The Jedi were the dominating force in the galaxy law enforcement wise for 10,000 years prior to the return of the sith. They didn't get that way by being blind schmucks.
Couldnt go wrong....til it his number was up when the force balanced itself.
"Laughable" would be not getting that. 🙂
Logical to a certain extent, but when you factor in all the other variables including force use, the jamminess of the user...etc etc you could possibly envisage some odd seeming outcomes Ibet.
I mean, for example: Look at Luke: A padawan of three years training Up against two Sith equals a huge ass whupping on paper, but in reality that played out very differently.
EU means nothing here, sadly, as If it did, this would have been a horrific landslide one sided assed raping by the SW guys.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Not as often as you make out. The Jedi were the dominating force in the galaxy law enforcement wise for 10,000 years prior to the return of the sith. They didn't get that way by being blind schmucks.
And you did get that information from which movie exactly?
All that I've heared was, that the Jedi were the "peace keepers" of the Galaxy for 1000 generations (mentioned by Ben Kenobi in "A new hope"😉. Yet, even the most peaceful planets - like Naboo - do operate ground forces and starfighter squadrons to defend themselves and defend their peace (as seen in "The Phantom Menace"😉.
That kind of undermines your statement that the Jedi were the "dominating force in law enforcement" for 10,000 years. Not that it matters, because that doesn't exactly proof their effectiveness against anything but blaster-wielding opponents, right?
Couldnt go wrong....til it his number was up when the force balanced itself.
"Laughable" would be not getting that. 🙂
Erm?
Apparently, I have to lecture you on the explicit force mechanics mentioned in the film. The Force goes "off balance" because the Sith exist. This weakens the Jedi, but that doesn't mean it does strengthen the Sith on the other side. The so called "will of the force" appears to be in balance, a will that the Sith do act against.
You seem to interprete the force as some kind of puppet master, who orchestrates all events behind the scenes for personal amusement. And that, quite frankly, doesn't make sense.
Logical to a certain extent, but when you factor in all the other variables including force use, the jamminess of the user...etc etc you could possibly envisage some odd seeming outcomes Ibet.
I mean, for example: Look at Luke: A padawan of three years training Up against two Sith equals a huge ass whupping on paper, but in reality that played out very differently.
Yes. It played out differently, because of a personal choice Vader made. What do you want to prove here?
EU means nothing here, sadly, as If it did, this would have been a horrific landslide one sided assed raping by the SW guys.
Erm. If the EU would mean anything here (or rather than that: established Harry Potter canon), the force users would just lose even harder.
Well in anycase, its enough to prove that the Jedi had the edge for a significant amount of time, and that Precog is likely one of the reasons for that.
Theres no lecture you could give that would change this:
Its a symbiotic relationship. So Sith being there may have been symptom of the darkside, rather than 'cause.
The fact that Yodas cave and other places are darksidey in themselves, suggests along with repeated use of the phrase "The dark side of the force" suggests that it is indeed the dominant partner of the dynamic,
sith present on not.
The living force. Yes.
And Vader was no only a pivotal force user, but he was actually born from it. Much of the galaxy ends up being ruled by his decisions.
Well I doubt it, if a full ungimped match up of everything in the SW galaxy and the HP, Earth would simply be destroyed.
Mace and Anakin would likely be enough to PWN hogwarts in themselves.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well in anycase, its enough to prove that the Jedi had the edge for a significant amount of time, and that Precog is likely one of the reasons for that.
And what burden does that have on this debate? None? About right there...
Theres no lecture you could give that would change this:
Its a symbiotic relationship. So Sith being there may have been symptom of the darkside, rather than 'cause.
Oh, yes.
If you want to tell us that, rather than deciding to become "evil" beings, all Sith were already born evil which kind of undermines the entire story of Anakin Skywalker and - therefore - Star Wars itself: a man falling to the Dark Side and being redeemed. Neither the first nor the latter would be possible, if this was Star Wars according to you. Thankfully, it isn't.
People make choices to the good or to the bad side. Anakin could have brought balance to the force by killing Sidious in RotS - or let Mace do the job. Instead, he decided that his own faith, or that of his wife, was worth more than that of the Galaxy and turned into Darth Vader as a consequence.
Since there is a option to chose present, the force can't determine anything. Fact.
The fact that Yodas cave and other places are darksidey in themselves, suggests along with repeated use of the phrase "The dark side of the force" suggests that it is indeed the dominant partner of the dynamic, sith present on not.
How did you conclude from the movies that the cave is a dark side place? Yoda makes it pretty clear to Luke, telling him, he's only going to find what he is taking with him. So Luke was confronted with the darkness that he carried within himself.
That's the movie version. The EU version has Yoda banishing the spirit of a Dark Jedi there. Point: In both versions, this place isn't "naturally dark".
The living force. Yes.
And how did you conclude that from the movies? The only allusion to the "living force" is, that Qui-Gon tells Anakin to listen to it. Does that mean that all force users have to listen or are permanently listening? Obviously the exact opposite is the case, because otherwise Qui-Gon wouldn't have needed to lecture Anakin on that stuff in the first place, right?
And Vader was no only a pivotal force user, but he was actually born from it. Much of the galaxy ends up being ruled by his decisions.
What do you want to prove with that? Really. Is it so hard to formulate an argument rather than stating the obvious? Considering that 98 % of my posts on this board can be found in the SW versus forum, I don't think I need a lecture on SW lore.
Well I doubt it, if a full ungimped match up of everything in the SW galaxy and the HP, Earth would simply be destroyed.
I find it highly amusing, that you'd consider such a match "ungimped"...
Mace and Anakin would likely be enough to PWN hogwarts in themselves.
Nope. They would die. Probably both solo'd by Dumbledore in under 10 seconds - at the same time. There isn't anything a force user can do against a powerful Wizard, due to the mere fact that force users and Wizards need the same time to use their respective powers, but the Wizards have far more options. Thus, even if we resort to "instant neck snapping", the same instance the neck snaps, the force user responsible for it gets hit by a killing curse.
This just gets more obvious, if you use the books from the Potterverse (especially the supplementary work) instead of going by the movie versions only.
Originally posted by BorbaradFunny, innit, how he cries GIMP?I find it highly amusing, that you'd consider such a match "ungimped"...
20 Wizards, 20 Jedi.
Magical spells and Force abilities.
Wands and lightsabers.
Both sides have knowledge of the other.
Both sides have 20 minutes prep.
Neutral ground.
If anything, this thread is the most even playing field in MVF history. I even "Gimped" the wizards by taking away Felix Felicis.
But no, sadako won't be happy until the Jedi are allowed Star Destroyers, Death Stars, Centerpoint station, The Sun Crusher, The entire Clone army, and whatever else he can think of.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
On a similar note, why do you say that if the EU were included, Force users would go down harder?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm. If the EU would mean anything here (or rather than that: established Harry Potter canon), the force users would just lose even harder.
I was thinking more about the Potter canon here, which makes the Wizards look quite more badass than they have been on screen so far...
That aside: Star Wars EU offers a lot of additional points to question the useability of precognition against Wizards, in form of descriptions of the ability ("Path of Destruction"😉 or of instances in which it horribly failed (e.g. Andur Sunrider's death, Cay Qel-Droma getting his arm cut off, Revan's Jedi capture squads in KotoR).
I've had the same debate over at EoD a few years ago (just with Voldemort VS NJO Luke Skywalker) and pretty much handed Illustrious his ass, with Gideon and Lightsnake (!) agreeing with me on the issue. A force user can't beat a magic user and the more powerful Wizards (Voldemort, Dumbledore) would rape even the most powerful force users.
Upon viewing The Deathly Hallows part one, I noticed something.
At the beginning, when Snape is half apparating to Malfoy Manor, he lands, becomes whole again, then he phases right through a steel gate, Kitty Pride style.
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Interesting.....
Also noticed that Bellatrix was able to transform her wand into a whip. FF to 5:05
I've had the same debate over at EoD a few years ago (just with Voldemort VS NJO Luke Skywalker) and pretty much handed Illustrious his ass, with Gideon and Lightsnake (!) agreeing with me on the issue. A force user can't beat a magic user and the more powerful Wizards (Voldemort, Dumbledore) would rape even the most powerful force users.
Wow, that is just stupid. NJO Luke would curbstomp raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaape any wizard with absurd ease. I can't believe Nai would say that.
edit: OMG, reading his above posts..... wtf Nai?