This would mean that you have to take anything the source material says into consideration, which happens to equip Luke with about a dozen of deus-ex-machina force abilties, of which each would be sufficient to tool anybody else in the SW universe.
Luke and Wankatine are both wanktastic characters that can pull anything from thin air, and pitting them against each other is like witnessing a cage match between two fanfic authors writing Mary Sues.
In combat, I have no doubts that Luke would win. He beat DE Sids with the help of only untrained Leia in Dark Empire. There is absolutely nothing that can substantiate how much help she was able to be. In fact, Luke wasn't even aware that she was helping him, which should make obvious she wasn't helping much. This is a Leia that 20+ years later is still a below average Jedi.
So that he not be mis-represented, I think Gideon (since others keep citing him) mainly keeps his argument on Sidious's force mastery, not his combat ability.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Whoopie-ka-dooo.No, jabroni. I'm directly insulting you and not indirectly insulting Gideon. Who the hell gives a crap about Gideons beliefs when we two are talking? I was clearly commenting on your statement that this is a "big topic", wasn't I?
And, gosh, it isn't a big topic. Either you stick with Lucas words and this can be solved by two lines of text or you ignore the creator of Star Wars - which would still be fine with me - and do it the rough way. This would mean that you have to take anything the source material says into consideration, which happens to equip Luke with about a dozen of deus-ex-machina force abilties, of which each would be sufficient to tool anybody else in the SW universe. And assuming that VS-matches are usually done with people in their "top shape", Luke could use every single one of that abilities.
That aside, I don't see any link to Gideons line of thought, which was based upon the different power levels attributed to Luke through-out the EU (ranging from "unable to defeat a single droideka" to "godlike"😉, which are already nullified by the usual conditions assumed for VS-matches in the context of this forum, which are clearly based on the idea that the contestants are in top shape (capable of performing / replicating their most prominent showings). Which would always come down to Luke in his "godlike" shape VS a not-so-godlike Sidious.
There you go.
If you were to look at my posts in this thread, you'd notice that I agree that in most areas Luke > Sidious, but some disagree, including prestigious debaters such as Gideon, so there obviously is enough room for debate.
Force harmony combines latent luminous energy. Leia's contribution is not a reflection of her skill, but rather her congenital presence in the Force. Keep in mind that the unborn fetus of Anakin Solo was an additional component of said Force harmony, as ludicrous as that sounds.
In fact, Luke wasn't even aware that she was helping him, which should make obvious she wasn't helping much.
We also have no evidence to prove that Palpatine did not maintain his adroit skills with a lightsaber.
Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Force harmony combines latent luminous energy. Leia's contribution is not a reflection of her skill, but rather her congenital presence in the Force. Keep in mind that the unborn fetus of Anakin Solo was an additional component of said Force harmony, as ludicrous as that sounds.
It actually does sound a bit ludicrous. You will need to prove this. The only thing I've seen suggesting Leia helps Luke was a comic panel where Luke says "Leia, help me!" and Leia says "I already am, can't you tell?"
Where are you getting proof for ANY of the above?
Originally posted by Elok Quintly
We also have no evidence to prove that Palpatine did not maintain his adroit skills with a lightsaber.
Oh, and this: What adroit skills? He was definitly a skilled lightsaber user, and on the level to fight with the elite, but not necessarily better than the elite. Not as skilled with a saber as Mace, arguably Yoda, and arguable Luke. Now Luke, 25 years later, constantly given accolades for his saber abilities, with COUNTLESS saber victories (vs, how many, by Sidious?) is going to be challenged with a saber by sidious? You will need more than "he trained Maul" to back that up.
No. Sidious's ability is with the force, and is why he resorts to the force in most confrontations.
They go into more detail in the audio drama, you can find links to audio files with the pertinent dialogue on the Wookieepedia entry for Force harmony.
Both the Dark Empire Sourcebook and the endnotes for Dark Empire further clarify the nature of this power. If you do not have access to said sources, then I will scour the texts and provide scans if necessary.
Not as skilled with a saber as Mace, arguably Yoda, and arguable Luke.
I seem to recall a comment in Star Wars Insider 113 describing Palpatine's skills with a lightsaber, but the exact quote eludes me. If someone could help I would be most appreciative.
Originally posted by Elok Quintly
You mean all those Force abilities Sidious can purportedly utilize as well, given the canonical statement in the Dark Empire Sourcebook that posits Sidious can use nearly every power, while simultaneously granting him the latitude to pull any newly-concocted application of the Force that he desires out of his anal cavity? Not to mention the line in that very same sourcebook that affirms the ambiguous genetic manipulation of Palpatine's clone bodies--distinct from Carnor Jax's sabotage (in case there is any confusion).
Oh my. When will you people learn to understand the concept of analyzing the source material.
The DE sourcebook was written when almost no EU material existed. The stuff released so far was (afaik) Timothy Zahns Thrawn trilogy, and the DE comics themselves. We neither had ancient Sith, nor Sith magic, nor fancy computer game heroes / villains and force powers established in the KotoR / Jedi Knight games.
At that point in time, Sidious - besides Vader - was the only Sith Lord known. So - obviously - he was capable of using all Dark Side powers, as there was nothing in that department existing outside of his persona. Sidious was the embodyment of the Dark Side. with everyone else just being his minions.
You belive that still is valid after the release of tons and tons of additional force material, including ritual based Sith magic and other stuff? If that's the case, you may want to have a look at the TOTJ Sourcebook which "canonically" claims that Freedon Nadd can use every light side and dark side power presented in that piece of literature, including force storms.
So Nadd > Sidious?
Palpatine has mastered all forms.
He has? Do you have a quote ready that says so?
His supposed loss to Mace had little to do with saber skill, he fought Yoda to a draw, and I'm not aware of any saber skills/feats Luke has that place him above Palpatine, other than more chronicled duels.
Firstly: He fought Yoda to a draw? From a superior position he, according to the G-canon RotS script, managed to be disarmed by Yoda in 30 seconds of combat. He did perform worse than AotC Dooku.
Secondly: You question Luke's saber ability in comparison to Sidious, when we see DE Luke defeating Palpatine in a lightsaber duel? I didn't realize that plain ignorance of facts helps to win debates now.
@truejedi
In combat, I have no doubts that Luke would win. He beat DE Sids with the help of only untrained Leia in Dark Empire. There is absolutely nothing that can substantiate how much help she was able to be.
Urm. Except of Luke asking Leia to join force with him, which she answers by the line that she's already doing so. Obviously Luke didn't even notice it. That aside the narrator in the comic states that she was merely helping Luke by allowing him to utilize a further unaccessible part of his own potential against Sidious.
Elok Quintly
I seem to recall a comment in Star Wars Insider 113 describing Palpatine's skills with a lightsaber, but the exact quote eludes me. If someone could help I would be most appreciative.
My girlfriend bought me that particular edition: "Though he often employed others to do his dirty work, Palpatine was a stunning fighter, capable of defeating multiple Jedi Masters in combat."
You really grasp at straws when it comes to the non-validity of canon sources, don't you Borbarad? Out-of-universe context has nothing to do with canonicity.
He has? Do you have a quote ready that says so?
It is also clear that debating with you is a fruitless endeavor, given that you are most assuredly a rather cantankerous individual. You seem to ignore previous debates in the past that already invalidated the argument that Freedon Nadd can successfully conjure Force storms of his own power, gloss over any canon source you find disagreeable, and use logic that just so happens to be anything but congruous with official canon policy.
Calling out Nick Gillard isn't wrong; he isn't one of the primary minds behind the creative process, he's the stunt coordinator. His opinion on their respective fighting skills is about as valid as one of ours.
EQ
It is also clear that debating with you is a fruitless endeavor, given that you are most assuredly a rather cantankerous individual. You seem to ignore previous debates in the past that already invalidated the argument that Freedon Nadd can successfully conjure Force storms of his own power, gloss over any canon source you find disagreeable, and use logic that just so happens to be anything but congruous with official canon policy.
If it's the Freedon Nadd quote that Nebaris has thrown up, all that is said is that he has some "knowledge" of the techniques in a certain sourcebook -- not that he has mastery of them.
Originally posted by Gideon
[B]Calling out Nick Gillard isn't wrong; he isn't one of the primary minds behind the creative process, he's the stunt coordinator. His opinion on their respective fighting skills is about as valid as one of ours.
EQ
I wouldn't say that.
It doesn't matter what you would or wouldn't say, though. Unless you can find a source that proves that Gillard has considerable sway in the creative process of the battles in the films, then it doesn't matter whatsoever. He carries no official role in the creative process as far as LFL is concerned and as far as I'm aware.