FOTJ Luke Skywalker vs DE Darth Sidious

But I don't see any purpose for him to master the likes of Soresu (entirely defensive, not matching his style or philosophy) for example.

Addendum to previous post: The full quote from the sourcebook is as follows, "Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure." Why would they preface this with the in-universe reference of Palpatine spending decades in study if the passage merely described powers listed in the book? Even if it were, the quote covers powers not yet revealed in the canon by making mention of "previously unknown powers". That could cover anything.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
the current argument aside, the "it is believed" part of that statement really renders the entire statement fallible anyway...

This stands.

Fallible wording perhaps, but the information is not entirely invalidated either.

As for Luke defeating Sidious in Dark Empire; the Force Harmony between Luke, Leia, and Anakin Solo is what allowed the rebellious Jedi Master to triumph. Luke's skills with a saber didn't improve that much since their last encounter in Palpatine's cloning labs, where the Sith Lord disarmed Luke with little difficulty.

Originally posted by Won Fei Fon
"It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure".

I'd say it's quite clearly coming from the inside perspective of the story; are we to assume that Sidious breaks the fourth wall at his leisure and designs new techniques from outside of the story for LFL to use in their sourcebooks?

No. We are assuming that the RPG players want to become part of the story and develop it further but according to their own means. That's what the Sourcebooks are written for. They put all the fancy stats in to allow player of the RPG to use those characters. Any information given in a Sourcebook that has not been mentioned elsewhere has to be viewed under that premise.

In that context (important word, almost always ignored around here), the quote does actualy make some sense. People can equip Sidious with all known powers but they can make him shit random force manouvers at will.

In the context of the storyline (which you seem to assume) the statement doesn't make sense. We neither have somebody able to belief that Sidious knew all techniques (due to the fact that almost nobody did know about his Sith Lord identity) and, in addition to that, we have Sidious searching for a certain force technique within the storyline (the ability to possess another being), which makes both claims present in the statement rather absurd.

[qoute]
Where are you getting this notion from? So far as I'm aware, only the RPG statistics are regarded as N-Canon, seeing as to how they're only applicable to game mechanics.[/quote]

That "notion" can be found in the LFL canon policy (Holocron), specifically mentioning that everything not being "storyline" is not to be viewed as canon. The idea that Sidious mastered X powers and could design new ones at will, is clearly not storyline related. In fact it blatantly contradicts the entire "Empire's End" storyline.

And yes, it is referring to all known powers within the storyline. The statement wouldn't have made mention of his ability to create powers at his leisure if it only described powers mentioned in the text; in fact, the passage would have been far more specific in that case.

It refers to the known powers within the storyline as it was in June 1993. Claiming anything else is a stupid violation of logical analysis of the source material. Especially when the next thing released (Empire's End in 1995) does already contradict the statement by making Sidious search for a knowledge how to remain alive. Knowledge later given to him by the Ancient Sith. If he knew "all known powers", he would have had the knowledge before actually acquiring it.

That aside, the canon policy in the holocron labels "many of the older works" (citing "Han Solo's Adventures" as example which was released at the same time as DE) are just secondary canon, which can be ignored because it was put together before any continuity was established and maintained - unless it appears in newer sources.

Yes it does. The book is rife with additional background information pertaining to the narrative, and it frequently employs brand-new quotes from characters such as Mon Mothma, and in-universe historians such as Arhul Hextrophon.

Unless that informations are later officially introduced into canon, they aren't canon at all. Again I can only refer to the general idea behind the Sourcebooks. Those things are fodder for SW:RPG players and were not written with the intention to expand the original storyline.

And, that aside: Don't try to devert the attention away from the fact that you used a vague statement, that is probably outdated and may refer to RPG powers instead of in universe force powers in an attempt to prove your point. An attempt during which you claimed that said vague statement was given by an "omniscient" narrator, which alone is quite hilarious.

Your little argument is pretty much destroyed, so why do you keep arguing?

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Fallible wording perhaps, but the information is not entirely invalidated either.

As for Luke defeating Sidious in Dark Empire; the Force Harmony between Luke, Leia, and Anakin Solo is what allowed the rebellious Jedi Master to triumph. Luke's skills with a saber didn't improve that much since their last encounter in Palpatine's cloning labs, where the Sith Lord disarmed Luke with little difficulty.

You will have a difficult time proving any of this.

Especially the first sentence.

oh, and as to the bolded portion: Obviously they did. He lost to Sidious in that first encounter, and defeated him in the second. What further proof of improvement do you need?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Your little argument is pretty much destroyed, so why do you keep arguing?

Let's review shall we? First, you claim entire screenplays are G-canon, when they very clearly are not. Second, you are now claiming that Sidious sought additional powers in Empire's End. I can only assume you've either never read Empire's End, or possess insufficient memory of the material. Palpatine never pursues new powers; instead, he seeks out the ancient Sith spirits on Korriban in order to command that they restore his contaminated flesh. When this fails, they inform him of the location of Anakin Solo, whom he's planned to use as his new host body since the first Dark Empire. The power he needs to accomplish this--transfer essence--has been known to him for quite some time prior to Dark Empire.

Third, you claim that the material present in the Dark Empire Sourcebook is S-canon. This rebuttal is dubious at best, given that S-canon generally covers material predating the Thrawn trilogy, such as the Marvel comics. Give me a statement from Leland Chee explaining how the DESB is S-canon, and I will concede. While you're at it, give me the quote from Mr. Chee saying that background information provided by sourcebooks is not C-canon.

TJ
What further proof of improvement do you need?

You do realize that those battles weren't days, weeks, or months apart, yes? After he defeated Luke, they went straight from Byss to find Leia on Da Shoocha V, where Luke bested him in combat.

Originally posted by Gideon
You do realize that those battles weren't days, weeks, or months apart, yes? After he defeated Luke, they went straight from Byss to find Leia on Da Shoocha V, where Luke bested him in combat.

TJ brings up a good point in that Luke didn't seem to notice that he was being amped, so the effect probably wasn't extreme, ie it didn't bring him to FOTJ Luke level.

Originally posted by Gideon
You do realize that those battles weren't days, weeks, or months apart, yes? After he defeated Luke, they went straight from Byss to find Leia on Da Shoocha V, where Luke bested him in combat.

So then, it is more likely that Luke and Sidious were at similar levels of combat ability? Sidious happened to win the first fight, Luke happened to win the second. Once again, the reason the NBA plays best of 7.

That's entirely possible.

It's also possible that Leia was intervening on his behalf during the lightsaber duel, hence her reply of "I already am [helping you]."

Either way though, FOTJ Luke is >> Sidious in sabers.

maybe so. I don't think how much she was helping is quantifiable however, and the fact that he wasn't even aware of her help doesn't do much to support a platform that it was making a gigantic difference.

TJ
maybe so. I don't think how much she was helping is quantifiable however, and the fact that he wasn't even aware of her help doesn't do much to support a platform that it was making a gigantic difference.

And he has to feel the difference in order for it to be significant, why?

You can certainly make that argument. It, as I said, doesn't seem the likely one though. Being helped in combat is something it seems you would be aware of, as referenced in Rule of Two. Every Jedi in the room knew the second their Battle Meditation Master was killed.

oh, and as to the bolded portion: Obviously they did. He lost to Sidious in that first encounter, and defeated him in the second. What further proof of improvement do you need?

Moreover, Leia and Anakin Solo were using Force harmony to assist Luke, as Leia says. She claims she has been assisting him even before Luke requests it. "Two are more powerful than one... three are more powerful than two. I felt another join us Luke... my third child."

The following is quoted from the Dark Empire endnotes:
"Here at last, at the terrible moment when he and Leia confront the untrammeled power of the most sinister agent of the Dark Side..." Oh wait, this is irrelevant. Ah well, I like the quote anyway. *ahem*

"... Luke and Leia are united to the Force in all its intensity, and the Force flows through them like a tidal wave of light."

The Dark Empire Sourcebook states that this ability is limited to their Force energy, which refers to their latent power and has little to do with experience, skill, and knowledge. And while Force harmony cannot directly counter dark side power, it can impede it, or cut the dark sider off from the Force completely.

TJ
You can certainly make that argument.

It isn't an argument, it's a question.

In that case: No, I don't suppose it would be absolutely necessary, but in from the point of view of common sense, I find it unlikely that she could have helped him to a massive degree without his being aware of her help. That is just unprecedented.

So much of the Luke/Sidious debate comes down to opinion anyway (for instance, what force feats are actually greater? Force Storm, or Cloaking a planet?) Its completely subjective.

TJ
In that case: No, I don't suppose it would be absolutely necessary,

There are powers and manifestations of the Force that can occur without its recipient being aware of it; consider a mind trick: the victim is clearly unaware that he's being manipulated, but that doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

Or it could come down to a matter of sensitivity. Luke's strength in the Force doesn't automatically make his senses absolutely refined, hence why Yoda rather than Anakin (Anakin who, at this point, arguably had a far greater Force-related education than Luke) was more sensitive to the happenings in the Force.

That he didn't sense it doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

Edit: How is the argument completely subjective?

Its true. I don't disagree with the supposition. The amount of help, is unfortunately, impossible to measure in this case.

TJ
The amount of help, is unfortunately, impossible to measure in this case.

As something of a spectator in this argument, since my opinion on this issue is well-known (I think Palpatine is absolutely capable of killing Skywalker, even as far as Fate of the Jedi, for those who don't know), I'll tell you this: I'm not even sure why the extent of Leia's intervention was brought up at all. The fact that Luke had help at all is what matters.

The Essential Guide to the Force, the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and the plot of the comics themselves make it abundantly clear that Skywalker couldn't defeat Palpatine alone.

Which is why the focus should be on Luke's exploits post-DE.