FOTJ Luke Skywalker vs DE Darth Sidious

Originally posted by Azronger
1. It is CIS for any iteration of Palpatine to engage in a duel, save for the pre-TPM ones. And no, there's no possibility for Palpatine to draw his saber here, since CIS is off

2. Palpatine would certainly be able to break Luke's lightsaber with lightning, but I'm not sure if he'd be able to down Luke with it.

3. Too bad Palpatine isn't going to draw his saber in the first place so this is a moot point.

4. I have told you that it would not make any sense for Sidious to be described as "doomed" in that situation if the lightning were not hitting him. More concrete evidence I cannot provide, but you've not even addressed that singular point which I've raised.

The definition of "smolder" is to burn without flames i.e. to have smoke come out of you. That's the extent of the damage Yoda took, without Tutaminis, so I'd definitely say he tanked it without much trouble, as he feigned unconsciousness, per the junior novel.

But more to the point: if Yoda, and Palpatine, can take hits from something more potent than a lightsaber to the face without much damage, then what's Luke's lightsaber going to do, in a scenario where Palpatine isn't holding back?

1. That's untrue. Palpatine drew his saber against Yoda despite being unsure he could win in a fight (RotS junior novelization).

2. What? I'm saying that he used Lightning at the start of that fight, yet still couldn't keep it from progressing into a lightsaber duel and losing.

3. It's not. It's a response to a scenario you brought up, lol.

4. Except no, the fact that the stream was bending against him meant he was losing the Lightning-Tutaminis war at that point. That is more than grounds enough for him to "seem doomed" - he seems like he's about to lose. The fact that no source mentions him being hit by his own Lightning reduces your case down to pure assumption and arbitrary logic, not fact.

The smoldering part wasn't when Yoda was knocked out, it was after, and that was during with Tutaminis, IIRC. Suggesting that being burned into a smoldering huddle is akin to no-selling attack is outright preposterous, not to mention that you failed to respond to Yoda being half-stunned by the explosion at the end.

And your comparison between Palpatine's Lightning and a lightsaber doesn't work. Each bolt of Lightning is not necessarily more powerful than a lightsaber; it was the overall surge that was bending Mace's blade, and of course, the energy of lightsaber is much more concentrated than Palpatine's Lightning, which is spread out. Hence whilst overall potency of the Emperor's lightning might eclipse that of a lightsaber, its damage may not since its spread out over someone's body. Lightsabers could and would be able to end their lives or inflict bodily damage on Sidious or Yoda (DE/DR proves that); they would have to utilize active Force defences to counter that.

There's also TFU's ending, where Marek grabs Palpatine and the Emperor ends up shocking himself (with even more powerful Lightning than in RotS). Whilst he doesn't take permanent damage, he lets out a small wail of pain and his body is seen to be visibly convulsing. So while you could be right in that he could take his Lightning without any sustained physical harm, but that's a very distinct concept from being immune to his powers altogether.

Luke in all but 5, most likely.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. That's untrue. Palpatine drew his saber against Yoda despite being unsure he could win in a fight (RotS junior novelization).

2. What? I'm saying that he used Lightning at the start of that fight, yet still couldn't keep it from progressing into a lightsaber duel and losing.

3. It's not. It's a response to a scenario you brought up, lol.

4. Except no, the fact that the stream was bending against him meant he was losing the Lightning-Tutaminis war at that point. That is more than grounds enough for him to "seem doomed" - he seems like he's about to lose. The fact that no source mentions him being hit by his own Lightning reduces your case down to pure assumption and arbitrary logic, not fact.

The smoldering part wasn't when Yoda was knocked out, it was after, and that was during with Tutaminis, IIRC. Suggesting that being burned into a smoldering huddle is akin to no-selling attack is outright preposterous, not to mention that you failed to respond to Yoda being half-stunned by the explosion at the end.

And your comparison between Palpatine's Lightning and a lightsaber doesn't work. Each bolt of Lightning is not necessarily more powerful than a lightsaber; it was the overall surge that was bending Mace's blade, and of course, the energy of lightsaber is much more concentrated than Palpatine's Lightning, which is spread out. Hence whilst overall potency of the Emperor's lightning might eclipse that of a lightsaber, its damage may not since its spread out over someone's body. Lightsabers could and would be able to end their lives or inflict bodily damage on Sidious or Yoda (DE/DR proves that); they would have to utilize active Force defences to counter that.

There's also TFU's ending, where Marek grabs Palpatine and the Emperor ends up shocking himself (with even more powerful Lightning than in RotS). Whilst he doesn't take permanent damage, he lets out a small wail of pain and his body is seen to be visibly convulsing. So while you could be right in that he could take his Lightning without any sustained physical harm, but that's a very distinct concept from being immune to his powers altogether.

1. I've countered this before. Check the link I posted earlier.

2. He didn't even try to prevent it from becoming a duel, lol. And he only used Lightning by channelling it through his saber, not at max intensity.

3. Fair, but do you think Luke could blitz Palpatine? If he can strike faster than Palpatine can fire Lightning, then that's the equivalent of him striking faster than Palpatine can defend with a lightsaber, which is the equivelant of a speedblitz.

4. Fair enough, although I still feel my interpretation is more solid than any other (the Lightning missing or Palpatine dodging), even if it is purely "assumptions and arbitrary logic". Something must have happened to the Lightning, and since we have no facts, we must rely on assumptions. So I ask you: what do you think happened to it and why?

No, Yoda was hit directly in the chest, while he was attempting to defend with his lightsaber. This also happens in the movie, except he is completely caught off-guard. Not sure what you're on about here; Yoda tanked the full Force of Sidious' Lightning head on, and aside from smoke, got up a moment later completely unscathed.

You're assuming the explosion is equal or lesser than Sidious' Lightning, which you have no basis for. I've no need to respond to that when we're talking about Sidious' Force Lightning, which can't be compared to the explosion.

Your point about the Lightning's power being spread out is fair, although even short bursts of it should still be comparable to a lightsaber blade since only a five-second-long concentrated blast from Palpatine was enough to bend Mace's blade; three or four seconds should equal a lightsaber's intensity.

Palpatine was having an orgasm when he electrocuted himself, lol. That's the extent his Lightning can do to him.

Since this is covering DE's lightsaber duel between Luke and Sidious, I've got a question.

In the first duel Sidious disarms Luke, but in the second, Leia and little Anakin somehow take away Sidious' aura? Or something like that, and then Luke cuts off the emperor's hand. Excuse if I haven't got it right, haven't read DE yet.

So, without help DE Luke doesn't outduel DE Sidious?

Originally posted by samappo
Since this is covering DE's lightsaber duel between Luke and Sidious, I've got a question.

In the first duel Sidious disarms Luke, but in the second, Leia and little Anakin somehow take away Sidious' aura? Or something like that, and then Luke cuts off the emperor's hand. Excuse if I haven't got it right, haven't read DE yet.

So, without help DE Luke doesn't outduel DE Sidious?

In their second duel, Leia amps Luke, which allows him to defeat the Emperor. Palpatine then summons a huge Force Storm, but while he's distracted, Luke, Leia, and Anakin cut him off from the Force, and he loses control of the Storm, which then kills him, and ends the first DE story arc.

Didn't it have to do with cancelling out Palp's aura of fear? Or was it just Luke getting amped?

Both, but Palpatine being cut from his power happens after the duel is over.

It's also confirmed Luke and Leia took control of the Emperor's Force Storm and turned it on him, after severing him from the Force, or some such sh!t.

So basically in a fair fight DE Sidious outclasses DE Luke as a duelist.

There's never been a fair fight between them.

What was unfair about their first duel?

It occurred on Byss, where Sidious was amped and Luke was hindered.

Also de luke had yet to undergo training fro palp in their first fight, though to be fair, the empror was regaining his strength throughout

Palpatine wins all but sabers and TK tug-of-war.

So it's debatable as to who was the better swordsman.

So in the DE comic, during Luke vs. Palpatine in their second duel, nothing really suggests Leia was amping Luke's power during the dueling portion. People point out to Leia's "aura" which in all honesty is somewhat reaching. In the audiobook Leia couldn't even Luke and Palpatine fighting, and could only sense them out through the Force which was described as Light and Dark side energies clashing. Even in her POV she never is said to amp him during the dueling portion.

Another thing people point out is when Luke asks Leia to join with him in the Force, they say Leia's answer signifies she was amping his power. But what she says is "I already am" not "I already have" that is two different things. If it were the latter then one could make the case she joined with him during the dueling portion, but it was the former, in which case her saying that implies she was in the process of joining with Luke right before he asked her and was not yet fully joined with him.

So unless someone has definite proof Luke was amped during the dueling portion, there's no real reason to have DE Palps>DE Luke. Quite the opposite in all honesty.